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[HomerSimpson-Man]

Man, it was nice while it lasted.

Modded Skyrim is easily one of the favorite games of the last generation and still is due to mods.

When I eventually upgraded my graphics card to a 4GB one, I was planning to go ham on the graphics mods.

 

[Marcel]

Bunch of weird comments here. You realize that even before this the market was dictating how many mods were made right? People still have to eat no matter what, so if mods don't pay for food, less mods can be made. Now some people might be able to eat by making awesome mods rather than by doing something that doesn't make my life better. That's a win-win in my book.

25% pittance from Valve and Bethesda on cheap-ass mods is going to "put food on the table". You're delusional and your example is terrible.

 

[Roshin]

Having thought about it, I feel certain that Valve are trying to turn mods into apps for games and the Workshop into an App Store. Sure, there will be free mods, but for how long? Steam and the possibility of (some) cash carries a lot of weight. If they're promoting paid mods (and they will), then the free stuff will quickly fade from sight.

We'll see, I guess, but it doesn't feel right and I've suddenly lost all interest in mods and Beth games.

Now some people might be able to eat by making awesome mods rather than by doing something that doesn't make my life better.

I'm starving. Time to make another mod.

 

[Dolor]

Bethesda sold that many copies partly because modding. I would not have fucking bought the PC version at launch if I knew they would pull this shit at some point. The vanilla game isn't very interesting. They are doing this four years after the game has been out selling a lot of copies BECAUSE of the modding scene. There is an implicit value to the product that you could continue improve it through outside means. I absolutely believe Skyrim wouldn't have sold anywhere near the numbers it has had with Mods being hidden behind a paywall.

You talk as if it's all mods have become paid. I would be amazed if all mods got prices attached to them, but that would at least show that modders were not happy with not getting paid and so maybe the status quo wasn't quite so perfect as many of you seem to suggest.

 

[Trojita]

Bunch of weird comments here. You realize that even before this the market was dictating how many mods were made right? People still have to eat no matter what, so if mods don't pay for food, less mods can be made. Now some people might be able to eat by making awesome mods rather than by doing something that doesn't make my life better. That's a win-win in my book.

You've lost me and I'd believe everyone here with this explanation. I don't think not having food has ever been shown as something that has actually happened to prevent someone that was modding from modding.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

You've lost me and I'd believe everyone here with this explanation. I don't think not having food has ever been shown as something that has actually happened to prevent someone that was modding from modding.

I understand what he is saying. If you're able to make a living off making mods, then you can quit your day job and work on mods full time.

 

[undersakura]

I'm sad that my one of my favorite franchises of all time is going to lose something so beautiful and precious. RIP modded TES games.

 

[Dolor]

25% pittance from Valve and Bethesda on cheap-ass mods is going to "put food on the table". You're delusional.

See my examples. You seem to have little to no experience for what money is worth in developing countries. Selling a bunch of $2 swords even at 25% could be a huge deal for them.

You've lost me and I'd believe everyone here with this explanation. I don't think not having food has ever been shown as something that has actually happened to prevent someone that was modding from modding.

It's economics. People need food to live. Previously, modding made no money, so modders could not buy food by making mods, so they would have to do something else to make money to buy food. Now, they can get money from modding (yay!), so they can maybe afford to eat just by modding or maybe by doing more modding and less of whatever else they were doing to make money, and now we all have more mods to play with (or choose not to buy) because they can make more mods and still buy food to live.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Why do people keep saying free mods are now non-existent for skyrim? There are like 13 or so paid mods on the store and thousands of free ones.

RIP FREE MODS

You will be missed.

 

[Marcel]

I understand what he is saying. If you're able to make a living off making mods, then you can quit your day job and work on mods full time.

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

Hhhmmmmm, if you ask me, the timing of this paid mod business model is very..............."convenient" for Bethesda. Seems like they are setting up for future plans..........................................



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If you catch my drift.

Ima be watching like a hawk.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

Well I clearly stated "if" it is possible. And I am just explaining what the other person said.

But apparently garry's mod creator has down well for himself. And many modders are hired into full time positions at big game development companies as well. If you think about it as a career path, you might be just perfectly fine making a pittance.

Likely most people work for a pittance at one point in their life. Like an unpaid internship that maybe gets a stipend if you're lucky.

 

[Dolor]

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

You seem to have a fairly narrow view of what this money can be worth to people.

But at the end of the day, if you're right and it's not worth it to anyone to make mods and charge for them, then what are you worried about exactly?

 

[Shepard]

So basically, mods are becoming "third-party DLCs" AND the publishers receive the bigger cut of those sales? Fuck you Valve.

 

[Marcel]

You seem to have a fairly narrow view of what this money can be worth to people.

You seem to have a nonsensical neoliberal view, what with you leaning to this developing countries thing. I seriously doubt the precariat are not going to rise out of poverty because they were somehow able to get a computer, learn to use mod tools or code and make $2 swords.

This marketplace will only create more stratification and strife within the modding community. It already has.

 

[Bluth54]

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

There are people who have made a pretty good amount of money off of the 25% cut they get for TF2 items. You can read some of the stories here.

It's hard to say if pay for mods will be as big as TF2/DOTA/CSGO items. I doubt it but you never know.

 

[Kalnos]

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

Pretty sure someone has probably done that making Dota 2 cosmetics at the same 25% rate (there's even a GAF poster in the Dota thread that could fall into this category). Most people won't make very much (or anything) but it's better than nothing.

 

[Bornstellar]

ApolloDown just pulled his mods in protest of SkyUI going paid.

Anyone happen to have Dragon Combat Overhaul, Civil War Overhaul, etc.?

 

[Trojita]

I understand what he is saying. If you're able to make a living off making mods, then you can quit your day job and work on mods full time.

See my examples. You seem to have little to no experience for what money is worth in developing countries. Selling a bunch of $2 swords even at 25% could be a huge deal for them.



It's economics. People need food to live. Previously, modding made no money, so modders could not buy food by making mods, so they would have to do something else to make money to buy food. Now, they can get money from modding (yay!), so they can maybe afford to eat just by modding or maybe by doing more modding and less of whatever else they were doing to make money, and now we all have more mods to play with (or choose not to buy) because they can make more mods and still buy food to live.

"I made a mod that made a lot of money". That does not guarantee that they would quit a day job or use more free time to make additional mods. these are all assumptions. I could assume that some modders would use their extra cash infusion to take vacations, which would stifle mod making.

 

[aliengmr]

Well I clearly stated "if" it is possible. And I am just explaining what the other person said.

But apparently garry's mod creator has down well for himself. And many modders are hired into full time positions at big game development companies as well. If you think about it as a career path, you might be just perfectly fine making a pittance.

Likely most people work for a pittance at one point in their life. Like an unpaid internship that maybe gets a stipend if you're lucky.

Garry's mod got front page visibility and has been around for like a decade, of course he did well. He likely got a larger cut too if Valve took their customary 30%. A sword isn't going to do that.

I think its far too optimistic to expect that 25% cut to be anywhere near "job-quitting" money for a single mod.

 

[Dolor]

You seem to have a nonsensical neoliberal view, what with you leaning to this developing countries thing. I seriously doubt the precariat are not going to rise out of poverty because they were somehow able to get a computer, learn to use mod tools or code and make $2 swords.

That's a strawman. An entire class isn't going to rise out of poverty from this, and I never said as much, but I have spent some time in developing countries, and I think there are a lot of places where being able to scrape together very small amounts is worth way more than you do. I would again expect that this is because you simply don't have any exposure to these places or people.

I mean, gold farming is a thing, right? And that's not because gold farmers make six figure salaries. It's because their other alternatives to make money are equally or more terrible. I bet most of them would jump at the chance to make mods instead.

Regardless, I'll ask again... If you believe it isn't worth it for anyone to charge for mods, then what exactly are you worried about?

 

[Yokai]

You seem to have a nonsensical neoliberal view, what with you leaning to this developing countries thing. I seriously doubt the precariat are not going to rise out of poverty because they were somehow able to get a computer, learn to use mod tools or code and make $2 swords.

This marketplace will only create more stratification and strife within the modding community. It already has.

The tf2 market has already proven that selling hats can be a huge gain for modelers. They may only get 25 percent of a few dollars, but if valve makes 50000 sales on a 2 dollar sword, that makes a total $100000 with the modder himself making 25k from that single asset. To put that in perspective, the average 3d modellers annual salary is only somewhere around 70k.

The app store has proven that even pennies can add up to huge gains.

 

[Marcel]

"I made a mod that made a lot of money". That does not guarantee that they would quit a day job or use more free time to make additional mods. these are all assumptions. I could assume that some modders would use their extra cash infusion to take vacations, which would stifle mod making.

Not only are they half-assed assumptions but they are based on the false promise of neoliberalist economic systems which has shown us that it does not improve on poverty but make the divide between social and economic strata that much more distinct. Let's not forget this old chestnut:

Instead of citizens, it produces consumers. Instead of communities, it produces shopping malls. The net result is an atomized society of disengaged individuals who feel demoralized and socially powerless.

Taking from McChesney's logic, Valve has turned a portion of the modding community into a shopping mall.

 

[superseohyun]

I've not been following the drama but I pretty much agree with him.

One thing I don't get is people going after Valve and Bethesda for taking cuts. Valve are providing the store front so that the mod gets seen and Bethesda created the game people are making mods for in the first place. Maybe the percentages need to be tweaked a bit to like 33% each way but I think it's acceptable.

no its not.... there are tons of instance where publisher saw the potential of a particular mod, then decided to publish that mod as an official DLC or expansion. The difference is, they actually did some job, QA and advertisment, and hold legal obligation if that DLC or Expansion stops to work. In that case, took a cut of 50% doesnt sound like that bad.
this? doing nothing and holds no accountability while receiving 50% profit? bullshit.

 

[Trojita]

That's a strawman. An entire class isn't going to rise out of poverty from this, and I never said as much, but I have spent some time in developing countries, and I think there are a lot of places where being able to scrape together very small amounts is worth way more than you do. I would again expect that this is because you simply don't have any exposure to these places or people.

I mean, gold farming is a thing, right? And that's not because gold farmers make six figure salaries. It's because their other alternatives to make money are equally or more terrible. I bet most of them would jump at the chance to make mods instead.

Regardless, I'll ask again... If you believe it isn't worth it for anyone to charge for mods, then what exactly are you worried about?

You are bringing up gold farmers? Gold farmers exist because they are hired enmasse to work in poor overpacked working conditions to play a game for 16+ hours to make the firm rich. If they got a chance to do any meaningful job they'd do it. There aren't self employed gold farmers.

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

In what magical universe is someone going to quit a real job, live off Steam dollars and make $2 swords for a living?

Your not seeing the bigger picture here. that $2 sword may seem like chump change per sale wise, but that $.50 adds up for each person that downloads it. And unlike a job, this form of income is 24/7 regardless of what the creator is doing. This could be added income on top of what they are already making from a job.

Making multiple $2 swords is multiplying that income, and that income keeps flowing as long as the mod remains.

It aint no laughing matter when that single $2 sword is bring in 1-2k a month for 10-20 hours of work.

 

[Dolor]

"I made a mod that made a lot of money". That does not guarantee that they would quit a day job or use more free time to make additional mods. these are all assumptions. I could assume that some modders would use their extra cash infusion to take vacations, which would stifle mod making.

This is getting to be silly season.

It's just economics guys, and there really isn't anything more fundamental than this.

More money going to modders will increase the amount of mods that are made.

Some people might just make more on their free time. Some might focus on modding exclusively. Some might just try it out with the hopes to get rich. Some might do less other work to make more mods. The specifics of how it happens don't matter as much as that it will happen.

 

[Ziffles]

Bunch of weird comments here.

Things that actually happened under a game industry largely left to it's own devices = weird comments? (or were you talking about something else?)

 

[Marcel]

Your not seeing the bigger picture here. that $2 sword may seem like chump change per sale wise, but that $.50 adds up for each person that downloads it. And unlike a job, this form of income is 24/7 regardless of what the creator is doing. This could be added income on top of what they are already making from a job.

Making multiple $2 swords is multiplying that income, and that income keeps flowing as long as the mod remains.

It aint no laughing matter when that single $2 sword is bring in 1-2k a month for 10-20 hours of work.

You're assuming the market is perfect and the individual will be successful for merely participating in a marketplace already filled to the brim with content. Most people are going to fail to make a dent, just like in the real world where failed ideas and failed self-starters are dime a dozen.

 

[Trojita]

no its not.... there are tons of instance where publisher saw the potential of a particular mod, then decided to publish that mod as an official DLC or expansion. The difference is, they actually did some job, QA and stuff, and hold legal obligation if that DLC or Expansion stops to work. In that case, took a cut of 50% doesnt sound like that bad.
this? doing nothing and holds no accountability while receiving 50% profit? bullshit.

I don't think a lot of people realize how complex Skyrim modding can get when you are at 100+ mods. I praised the workshop for its easibility to get people into modding, but it's the McDonalds drive-through way of attaching a mod to a game.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Not only are they half-assed assumptions but they are based on the false promise of neoliberalist economic systems which has shown us that it does not improve on poverty but make the divide between social and economic strata that much more distinct. Let's not forget this old chestnut:



Taking from McChesney's logic, Valve has turned a portion of the modding community into a shopping mall.

This is poignant way of putting it. And scary in a way.

 

[Klossen]

My favorite part about buying broken games is paying the game publishers even more so I can apply a third-party fix.

 

[Dolor]

If they got a chance to do any meaningful job they'd do it.

Somehow you can say this but you still think that no one anywhere would see value in taking up modding to try to make money if Valve's plan works?

Things that actually happened under a game industry largely left to it's own devices = weird comments?

The weird comments are all the anti-market weird stuff.

Some unquestionably bad stuff has happened in the games industry, but PC gaming is better than it's ever been because more good stuff has been happening than bad. I would argue that a goodly amount of the credit for that goes to Valve and Steam actually, and I think this will probably be looked back upon 5 years from now as another imperfect step in a better direction.

 

[Shengar]

The market gonna set itself right.
Yeah, that's what happened with Standard Oil right?

Spoiler

hint: (near) monopoly of the market

 

[Marcel]

This is poignant way of putting it. And scary in a way.

Neoliberalism is a disgusting, inhuman system and I feel disappointed seeing people purposefully or accidentally advocating for markets that mostly benefit the already rich. And they support it over a meager pittance that goes to modders when it should be the modders that self-regulate a marketplace, who set the rules, who work amongst their community to find solutions without scummy, self-interested corps getting involved and pretending to be their buddy.

 

[params7]

See my examples. You seem to have little to no experience for what money is worth in developing countries. Selling a bunch of $2 swords even at 25% could be a huge deal for them.

Let me get this straight. You're defending the 25% cut because it will hold more value for people in developing countries than it will do for Americans?

 

[Dolor]

Let me get this straight. You're defending the 25% cut because it will hold more value for people in developing countries than it will do for Americans?

Ummm, no, not at all really. You can read my post history if you are actually interested. I wish that number was higher, but I am not so myopic as to think that even at a 25% cut that that money couldn't still end up being meaningful for a lot of people in worse situations than I am.

 

[Klossen]

Let me get this straight. You're defending the 25% cut because it will hold more value for people in developing countries than it will do for Americans?

Modding - Hey, atleast it pays better than Chinese sweatshops!

 

[Trojita]

Somehow you can say this but you still think that no one anywhere would see value in taking up modding to try to make money if Valve's plan works?



The weird comments are all the anti-market weird stuff.

Some unquestionably bad stuff has happened in the games industry, but PC gaming is better than it's ever been because more good stuff has been happening than bad. I would argue that a goodly amount of the credit for that goes to Valve and Steam actually, and I think this will probably be looked back upon 5 years from now as another imperfect step in a better direction.

We are talking about Chinese Gold Farmers because you brought it up. You expect them to have a home PC, have the skills and knowledge to code, and then they'd have to have a decent grasp of English.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Neoliberalism is a disgusting, inhuman system and I feel disappointed seeing people purposefully or accidentally advocating for markets that mostly benefit the already rich. And they support it over a meager pittance that goes to modders when it should be the modders that self-regulate a marketplace, who set the rules, who work amongst their community to find solutions without scummy, self-interested corps getting involved and pretending to be their buddy.

Mhm. Corporations are never your friend ._. some people need to realize that. They're always looking out for themselves, simple as that.

 

[aliengmr]

Somehow you can say this but you still think that no one anywhere would see value in taking up modding to try to make money if Valve's plan works?



The weird comments are all the anti-market weird stuff.

Some unquestionably bad stuff has happened in the games industry, but PC gaming is better than it's ever been because more good stuff has been happening than bad. I would argue that a goodly amount of the credit for that goes to Valve and Steam actually, and I think this will probably be looked back upon 5 years from now as another imperfect step in a better direction.

I'm just going to disagree that more pay walls are a good thing. Especially if its for something not 100% reliable, like mods. You may think its great, but I don't. Its just more DLC.

 

[params7]

Ummm, no, not at all really. You can read my post history if you are actually interested. I wish that number was higher, but I am not so myopic as to think that even at a 25% cut that that money couldn't still end up being meaningful for a lot of people in worse situations than I am.

Maybe Valve could take a 98% cut. I'm sure the 2% will end up being meaningful for a lot of people in developing countries.

 

[Dolor]

Modding - Hey, atleast it pays better than Chinese sweatshops!

Obviously, you're being sarcastic, but you do realize that by being against this change, you are giving people in those types of situations fewer options to get out of their situation, right?

We are talking about Chinese Gold Farmers because you brought it up. You expect them to have a home PC, have the skills and knowledge to code, and then they'd have to have a decent grasp of English.

This is just painful at this point. Since you are taking the stance that no one anywhere would find this enterprise worthwhile (and simultaneously somehow concerned that it will be a big enough deal to merit debating I guess?), I would think the burden of proof for such a claim would be on you. My stance is that it might be valuable to some people in worse circumstances than me. You are saying it would be valuable to no one.

 

[Kallor]

A decent idea thats gonna be totally fucked lol.
Hoping nexus doesn't get locked out of Fallout 4 mods.

And 25% for modders is just awful.

 

[Dolor]

Maybe Valve could take a 98% cut. I'm sure the 2% will end up being meaningful for a lot of people in developing countries.

Are you arguing that they should do this but just with modders getting a bigger %? Because that's basically my stance as well... Is the draw of sarcasm so strong that you can't just say we agree?

Note: it doesn't make sense to argue that modders should get a higher cut AND for the status quo where modders get 0%.

 

[Morokh]

A decent idea thats gonna be totally fucked lol.
Hoping nexus doesn't get locked out of Fallout 4 mods.

And 25% for modders is just awful.

Would be weird since they are 'partners' in this.

In short a modder selling a mod can opt-in to give a small part of the revenue Valve is supposed to receive to the Nexus (or any other entity listed as partner in the program)

 

[Kallor]

Would be weird since they are 'partners' in this.

In short a modder selling a mod can opt-in to give a small part of the revenue Valve is supposed to receive to the Nexus (or any other entity listed as partner in the program)

What? this entire thing sounds clusterfucked tbh lol.

 

[params7]

Are you arguing that they should do this but just with modders getting a bigger %? Because that's basically my stance as well... Is the draw of sarcasm so strong that you can't just say we agree?

Note: it doesn't make sense to argue that modders should get a higher cut AND for the status quo where modders get 0%.

If they should do this, yes, the modders need to get the majority chunk of the change. The sarcasm was there because your defense of it made no sense to me.

 

[HariKari]

What? this entire thing sounds clusterfucked tbh lol.

Yeah, apparently a modder can list a 'service provider' like the Nexus that helped them, and tithe a bit of the revenue split to them (up to 5%) as a way to say thanks. We only know of this because Chesko posted about it.

 

[Vallen Valiant]

So here is the next question; are they going to try to jam DRM into mods now too?

Because clearly once mods are no longer free, the first step is locking paying mods behind horrible DRM in order to prevent a free copy from being hacked. That is the ONLY thing that is certain to happen.

And then what? Paid mods would become clunky, require activation codes, require always-online to work, has activation limits?

And of course, that means jamming DRM into FREE mods too, because how else would the DRM work?

At that point, we would have to make a hack out of the modding tool just to get rid of the DRM.

No. Just NO.