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Smash Bros Brawl Dojo Official Update Thread: Goodbye, Cherry-don

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Brobzoid

how do I slip unnoticed out of a gloryhole booth?
my favorite stages are Final Destination and Hyrule Castle. The latter only to bother my friends, since once I go down, I can bounce around on the walls and take up to 300% damage easy!
 

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
BrendenLee said:
Final Destination
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Island
Termina Bay

It's amazing Smash is still evolving this late in its life. At the last MLG a Donkey Kong placed 4th and is making a strong argument for one last restructuring of the tiers before Brawl.

You can see him play Isiah here -->

Bum (DK) v. Isiah (CF) - MLG Long Island

nothing surprising about it. "Tiers" are bullshit. its all about how good you can play with the character. everytime i see Link put in the "low" tier, i laugh because i know i can more than likely **** up most people with Link.
 
ColdBlooded33 said:
nothing surprising about it. "Tiers" are bullshit. its all about how good you can play with the character. everytime i see Link put in the "low" tier, i laugh because i know i can more than likely **** up most people with Link.

There's nothing surprising about a Donkey Kong placing 4th in an MLG tournament.

Ok:lol

Tiers are meant for the highest level of play blah blah take the best Fox and he'll beat the best Pichu because of inherent advantages blah blah tiers are legitimate blah blah blah
 

Firestorm

Member
BrendenLee said:
There's nothing surprising about a Donkey Kong placing 4th in an MLG tournament.

Ok:lol

Tiers are meant for the highest level of play blah blah take the best Fox and he'll beat the best Pichu because of inherent advantages blah blah tiers are legitimate blah blah blah

Did you not see it? He beat ISAI'S FALCON WITH DONKEY KONG.
*watches*

Oh snap. Although Falcon being a fastfaller probably had something to do with it. There were some pretty awesome combos in there.

ColdBlooded33 said:
nothing surprising about it. "Tiers" are bullshit. its all about how good you can play with the character. everytime i see Link put in the "low" tier, i laugh because i know i can more than likely **** up most people with Link.

Yeah, you can **** up most crappy players with Link. Tiers aren't bullshit. They exist in EVERY GAME. The only way to eliminate tiers is by making every character play the exact same way. Then you'd have a perfectly balanced, and boring, game. Otherwise, one character will always be at least slightly better than another when used to their potential.
 
I've been out of the loop. Can any smashers tell me if there's been a real DK resurgence (wel,, surgence) or if it's just one guy. I mean, it would surprise me, but I guess it's not unprecedented after the Ice Climbers revolution.
 
Firestorm said:
Did you not see it? He beat ISAI'S FALCON WITH DONKEY KONG.
*watches*

Hence making a strong argument for tier restructuring.

I heard the crowd went wild during Bum's matches, wish they had vids with bg on them.

Check out his matches on Jungle Japes, he's developed a real nice strategy on that stage.
 

Firestorm

Member
Dark Ninja said:
Am I the only one who wants Safron city to be in Brawl
man that level ruled on the N64

I loved Saffron City >.>; Hyrule Temple was fun too, but Saffron was the stage I played most in the N64 game.
 

Firestorm

Member
BrendenLee said:
Hence making a strong argument for tier restructuring.

I heard the crowd went wild during Bum's matches, wish they had vids with bg on them.

Check out his matches on Jungle Japes, he's developed a real nice strategy on that stage.

I just realized you posted the original message and were being sarcastic in the second. Thought you were just an MLG basher like all the GAF idiots (mostly seen it with Halo) XD My bad.
 
Gekkonidae said:
I've been out of the loop. Can any smashers tell me if there's been a real DK resurgence (wel,, surgence) or if it's just one guy. I mean, it would surprise me, but I guess it's not unprecedented after the Ice Climbers revolution.

It's just been Bum so far. DK's u-throw to u-air is too good, on par with Fox's u-throw to u-air so he might have some legs.

As for the IC's, Chu and Wobbles are the only two who have made a real impact, they're not so easy to pick up.
 
Firestorm said:
I just realized you posted the original message and were being sarcastic in the second. Thought you were just an MLG basher like all the GAF idiots (mostly seen it with Halo) XD My bad.

Understandable, it's rough around here.
 
Firestorm said:
I loved Saffron City >.>; Hyrule Temple was fun too, but Saffron was the stage I played most in the N64 game.

Yeah Hyrule temple was cool too
I didn't understand why those hurricane things were there
they dont even come out in zelda
 

Firestorm

Member
Dark Ninja said:
Yeah Hyrule temple was cool too
I didn't understand why those hurricane things were there
they dont even come out in zelda

Wait, I just realized. Hyrule Castle! Hyrule Temple in SSBM is just annoying. 8 minute matches or more and there are usually like another 3 people waiting for their turn to play once it's done.
 

superbank

The definition of front-butt.
An item they should add is the Master Ball from Pokemon. Basically you can capture anything with it. Pick it up and throw it at another player to capture them! Once captured you can throw the ball on the ground and your opponent will pop out doing a special move (not of their choosing). If someone else has a Master Ball you have many defenses to evade confinement. You can use a projectile like Links Boomerang to intercept the Master Ball but the Boomerang will be caught and your opponent can use it against you.

Favorite Stages:

Green Greens
Hyrule Temple
Final Destination (To measure skill)

Bonus. SSB:
Saffron City
Hyrule Castle
Sector Z (Thats what it was called right? The Starfox stage.)

BrendenLee said:
You can see him play Isiah here -->

Bum (DK) v. Isiah (CF) - MLG Long Island

Damn. That up air combo is unbalanced. Impressive Donkey Kong play.
 

Taxman

Member
Gekkonidae said:
I've been out of the loop. Can any smashers tell me if there's been a real DK resurgence (wel,, surgence) or if it's just one guy. I mean, it would surprise me, but I guess it's not unprecedented after the Ice Climbers revolution.
There was an Ice Climbers revolution? Man, I really need to catch up to this stuff. What other past revolutions have there been in the world of Melee? Anyone know some links?
 

Firestorm

Member
Taxman said:
There was an Ice Climbers revolution? Man, I really need to catch up to this stuff. What other past revolutions have there been in the world of Melee? Anyone know some links?

I know there's a Smash History topic at SmashBoards (outlining the early days of Smash). It talks about how items were allowed back at the beginning and how the East/West coasts played the game in totally seperate ways. Also kind of how it developed into the ruleset that's used today. But I don't think it says much about how the ICs became awesome. Chu Dat basically created them single-handedly really....
 
Taxman said:
There was an Ice Climbers revolution? Man, I really need to catch up to this stuff. What other past revolutions have there been in the world of Melee? Anyone know some links?

Revolution is too strong a word, I guess. Basically, the ICs were never really considered very good until ChuDat figured out that they really had a great deal of potential (particularly due to their high level counters) and several other smashers followed suit. This caused the ICs to steadily shoot up in the tier list.
 
FlightOfHeaven said:
Holy god.

Holy Order Sol just made me realize that Ishiwatari isn't composing for Brawl.

INJUSTICE

Taste the sad, Michael.
I can show that list to any gamer I know and they'll find their favorite composer in. But me ? It's like Sakurai told me to go **** myself. :lol

Bah. Here's hoping Sakuraba does Zelda's Main Theme and uses his prog-rock style rather than his "orchestral" one.
That, or we could get a character from BK and have Chaotic Dance 3 in.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Son of Godzilla said:
Lame Shit Because It Lacks Sudden Death
Stock Melee
#1: You can get sudden death in stock mode. I've gotten it several times.

#2: standard competitive smash rules = 4 stock, 8 minute time limit for the match.
 

Jiggy

Member
Firestorm said:
Jiggy, Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats are allowed in competitive play ;)
Oh, I know. I'm just saying I wouldn't use them that way. >_> It's not even the scrolling that gets me, just the small stage boundaries. Kind of like Brinstar Depths, just seems too easy to KO to me.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
stage03_070612d-l.jpg

Everytime I look at this image all I see is Wario about to give Mario the bird.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Firestorm said:
Did you not see it? He beat ISAI'S FALCON WITH DONKEY KONG.
*watches*

Oh snap. Although Falcon being a fastfaller probably had something to do with it. There were some pretty awesome combos in there.
Actually, DK and Falcon are pretty evenly matched. With players of equal skill, if you played 100 games, it would probably go 55/45 or 60/40 in favor of Falcon.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
By the way, I'm pretty sure that Link and Luigi are going to be moved into the middle tier for the next tier revision. They're just sooo much better than the rest of low tiers.

Thanks to Bum, DK might go up to middle tier, as well.

I don't think DK will change positions relative to other characters, though. After all, Taj's mewtwo didn't affect the tier list.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I was just thinking they should do a metroid stage that is set on an elevator that periodically moves to a different area of Zebes or Talon IV, with different hazzards in each area. Like brinstar could just be a normal level, then it moves to norfair and there are lava pools on the sides of the elevator, then it moves to Tourian and metroids attack :D
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
LegendofJoe said:
Is the glass always half empty for you? Seriously, I don't think I've ever read a positive post from you.

What? Are you serious? :lol

I was playfully exagerrating.
 

Firestorm

Member
Shinobix said:
Oh my god what the hell is a tier. This thread has been all about that lately..I feel so out of place.

tier
n.

1. One of a series of rows placed one above another: a stadium with four tiers of seats.
2. A rank or class.

Basically, the ranking of characters in relation to each other in the current metagame. Some crazy people don't believe tiers exist. Some not so crazy people realize no matter what happens, tiers will exist.

Well, unless every character played the exact same way, but a lot of people who hate tiers also hate clones (which don't play the exact same way, but play similarily) so who knows.
 

usea

Member
Bum is a great player, but that level of play is nothing new with DK play. I've played canada mike's and captain jack's DK at TG6, both were about as good. I mean I can't say who is better, but I'm just saying that style and level of play with DK is nothing new. You can watch videos from older tournaments to check it out. He's mostly effective against fastfallers as somebody else already mentioned. I remember watching ken lose to captain jack's dk, and this was back when ken was considered the best player (until he got like 3rd? the next day heh. lost to dsf in a huge upset)

As for the IC gameplay, a few players were playing them seriously and successfully before chudat's performance at tg6 opened everybody's eyes. vocal from ohio and josh(CORY) from dallas were big early players, helping spread a lot of the common combos and desyncing strategies used now.

I'm not even going to argue about the validity of tiers, I'm just so tired of it. If you think tiers are bullshit then to be honest, you're a complete ****ing idiot who will never be capable of critical thought. Or, to put it more accurately without hyperbole, you should be open minded and think about about it instead of just dismissing it before you even know what you're talking about.

Another thing I want to get off my chest, is I think the hatred of so-called "clone characters" is completely ignorant and irrational. They share similar animations, but that's it. Aside from doctor mario and mario, who are extremely similar, clone characters just look similar from a glance. There is nothing about them that detracts from the game, they're not stupid, they're not clones, they don't play the same, etc.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
usea said:
Aside from doctor mario and mario, who are extremely similar, clone characters just look similar from a glance. There is nothing about them that detracts from the game, they're not stupid, they're not clones, they don't play the same, etc.

Speaking of clones, I'm 99.9% sure that Dr. Mario and Ganondorf's forward airs are the same in melee
 
I also don't understand the hatred of teirs or tournament play. By denouncing 1 on 1 no items matches, isn't that just as oppressive as people who'd rather not have 4 player free-for-alls?

Also, I'd rather have clones than no extra characters at all.
 

Somnid

Member
Keru_Shiri said:
I also don't understand the hatred of teirs or tournament play. By denouncing 1 on 1 no items matches, isn't that just as oppressive as people who'd rather not have 4 player free-for-alls?

Also, I'd rather have clones than no extra characters at all.

I think it completely tries to go the other direction than what Smash is. Smash is a party brawler, it's supposed to be hectic and unpredictable. When you take all the cool stages, cool items and other 2 players out of the mix you're stripping it down into a psuedo-street fighter. Might as well go the extra mile and do nothing but stamina melees.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Somnid said:
I think it completely tries to go the other direction than what Smash is. Smash is a party brawler, it's supposed to be hectic and unpredictable. When you take all the cool stages, cool items and other 2 players out of the mix you're stripping it down into a psuedo-street fighter. Might as well go the extra mile and do nothing but stamina melees.
I don't see why it's "wrong" to do that, though.

I mean, in terms of size and popularity, the competitive smash scene is probably 4th to Capcom vs. SNK 2, Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, and Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike.

There's a LOT of depth to Smash. It can be played as a party game OR a competitive fighter, and, while I know a lot of the casual smash players tend to scoff at the idea, the fact of the matter is, Smash is extremely well designed and suitable for competitive play, and to say one way of playing is "better" than another is just being an elitist asshole.

I, personally, play both competitively and casually. I'll sometimes play with items, and I'll sometimes play competitively. When I play casually, I'll incorporate all the techniques and mastery of characters I learn from playing competitively (you know, wave dashing, teching, DI, and grabbing items out of the air while in mid-jump), but regardless of how I'm playing, I have fun.

The funny thing is, competitive smashers, at least those that I have come into contact with, DON'T look down on casual smash playing in the same way as the casual smash party brawlers look down on the competitive smash community.
 

Firestorm

Member
GaimeGuy said:
Speaking of clones, I'm 99.9% sure that Dr. Mario and Ganondorf's forward airs are the same in melee

I never noticed that =O

Somnid said:
I think it completely tries to go the other direction than what Smash is. Smash is a party brawler, it's supposed to be hectic and unpredictable. When you take all the cool stages, cool items and other 2 players out of the mix you're stripping it down into a psuedo-street fighter. Might as well go the extra mile and do nothing but stamina melees.

The edge game is one of the more important parts of Melee. Putting it to Stamina would defeat that. The thing is, Smash is meant to be both. Think about it. Why else would the Smash team program in things like teching, l-cancelling, crouch cancelling, directional influence, etc.?

Street Fighter and SSBM run on completely different game-engines. People who play SSBM over SF due so because of that. I love the aerial system of Smash.

snack said:
Good god, the Yoshi's Island level looks amazing. Wow, the pastel art looks so freaking cool.


I want this game, really badly.


Yeah, I love the art-style of the stage. Hopefully Shy Guys won't be as annoying as that cloud. "CLOUD CLOUD CLOUD GODAMMIT WHERE WERE YOU YOU PIECE OF CRAP" :( Too often, too often.
 

Somnid

Member
GaimeGuy said:
I don't see why it's "wrong" to do that, though.

I mean, in terms of size and popularity, the competitive smash scene is probably 4th to Capcom vs. SNK 2, Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, and Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike.

There's a LOT of depth to Smash. It can be played as a party game OR a competitive fighter, and, while I know a lot of the casual smash players tend to scoff at the idea, the fact of the matter is, Smash is extremely well designed and suitable for competitive play, and to say one way of playing is "better" than another is just being an elitist asshole.

I, personally, play both competitively and casually. I'll sometimes play with items, and I'll sometimes play competitively. When I play casually, I'll incorporate all the techniques and mastery of characters I learn from playing competitively (you know, wave dashing, teching, DI, and grabbing items out of the air while in mid-jump), but regardless of how I'm playing, I have fun.

The funny thing is, competitive smashers, at least those that I have come into contact with, DON'T look down on casual smash playing in the same way as the casual smash party brawlers look down on the competitive smash community.

Don't get me wrong, there is no "wrong" way to do it. You can play however you want I don't care, I mean that's the brillance. This is just my opinion. Obviously the reason why many tournament players might still like this is because that's all part of the intended design.

However, what I'm not keen of is these people who started some stupid club, decided their own rules and then had the tenacity to declare themselves the best. Among my circle of friends the standard is 4 player, 3-minute time, all items with medium drops, and random select. I'm not calling myself the best Smash player because I'm good at that match type. It's this elitest attitude that gets me the most, tournament play is way less than 1% of Smash Bros players but I really hate that they assume some sort of superiority because of it.
 
Somnid said:
However, what I'm not keen of is these people who started some stupid club, decided their own rules and then had the tenacity to declare themselves the best. Among my circle of friends the standard is 4 player, 3-minute time, all items with medium drops, and random select. I'm not calling myself the best Smash player because I'm good at that match type. It's this elitest attitude that gets me the most, tournament play is way less than 1% of Smash Bros players but I really hate that they assume some sort of superiority because of it.

This is an unfair stereotype of a significant amount of Smashers. All my competitive friends take a live and let live attitude to casual gamers. I've played at MLG and the top pros are accommodating and usually willing to give a hand to the novices. There isn't any tenacity towards casual gamers, this isn't Halo. Of course there are exceptions, but generally Smashers are quite friendly.
 

Firestorm

Member
Somnid said:
Don't get me wrong, there is no "wrong" way to do it. You can play however you want I don't care, I mean that's the brillance. This is just my opinion. Obviously the reason why many tournament players might still like this is because that's all part of the intended design.

However, what I'm not keen of is these people who started some stupid club, decided their own rules and then had the tenacity to declare themselves the best. Among my circle of friends the standard is 4 player, 3-minute time, all items with medium drops, and random select. I'm not calling myself the best Smash player because I'm good at that match type. It's this elitest attitude that gets me the most, tournament play is way less than 1% of Smash Bros players but I really hate that they assume some sort of superiority because of it.

Well, I'd say that the top players would be some of the best no matter what the game type. The mindgames would matter less, but most of them have crazy technical skill as well. And don't assume they assume some of of superiority ;) Like Brenden says, many of them are really nice people. There are of course some trashtalkers, but it's the exception not the rule.
 

Jiggy

Member
You know, while Stamina mode is still a pretty recent discussion point, I've thought for a while that they should add another mode that's a hybrid of Stamina and Stock, where you add up damage and knockback like in normal Stock, but can also finish the opponent by hitting some adjustable damage point. That'd be about as close to a standard fighting game as it could get, with both ring outs and KOs as winning methods. Not to say the mode would be greater or worse than Stamina by itself, or Stock by itself, but having more options is usually better.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Jiggy37 said:
You know, while Stamina mode is still a pretty recent discussion point, I've thought for a while that they should add another mode that's a hybrid of Stamina and Stock, where you add up damage and knockback like in normal Stock, but can also finish the opponent by hitting some adjustable damage point. That'd be about as close to a standard fighting game as it could get, with both ring outs and KOs as winning methods. Not to say the mode would be greater or worse than Stamina by itself, or Stock by itself, but having more options is usually better.
I want a stock stamina where they respawn after the hit points run out I also want a few more seconds of control during the slow mo death, nothing is sweater than juggling them into the air as their stamino goes to zero and falcon punching the flying corpse off the stage. nothing
 
Somnid said:
Don't get me wrong, there is no "wrong" way to do it. You can play however you want I don't care, I mean that's the brillance. This is just my opinion. Obviously the reason why many tournament players might still like this is because that's all part of the intended design.

However, what I'm not keen of is these people who started some stupid club, decided their own rules and then had the tenacity to declare themselves the best. Among my circle of friends the standard is 4 player, 3-minute time, all items with medium drops, and random select. I'm not calling myself the best Smash player because I'm good at that match type.
I see what your saying, and I agree, it's fun to play 4 man matches with items, but the main reason many people strip those elements out is to keep a sense of fairness. I'd feel kinda cheated if I layed down some cash to enter a tournament only to get screwed out of it because a bob-omb spawned right behind me (like it has 50,000 thousand ****ing times in 4 player matches with items). Tournaments should be about skill, and I believe a majority of the people who want to play competitivley would rather the random factors be taken out.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong to play all stages, all items.
It's this elitest attitude that gets me the most, tournament play is way less than 1% of Smash Bros players but I really hate that they assume some sort of superiority because of it.
Judging by some of the replies on this board (I won't point fingers) but that attitude seems to go both ways. Just as many of the casual people are lauding the tourney players for playing the game "incorrectly" as well.
 

dkeane

Member
AdmiralViscen said:
YI looks amazing.

I wish we had daily topics about this instead of one uberthread.
JUST BOOKMARK THE ORIGINAL POST, IT S AMAZING.
woah didn;t mean those caps, oh well.....
 

MetatronM

Unconfirmed Member
Keru_Shiri said:
Judging by some of the replies on this board (I won't point fingers) but that attitude seems to go both ways. Just as many of the casual people are lauding the tourney players for playing the game "incorrectly" as well.
That's not what the word "laud" means. In fact, it means the exact opposite of how you are trying to use it.

Sorry, pet peeve.




Umm, let's see, we've had game modes, characters, and stages lately, right? I say it's time for a music update today.
 
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