It doesn't really eat any extra memory. Barring small compression differences, a 2 minute song is the same size whether it's a full orchestra or a single instrument. The hardware synth could in some ways be bit higher quality than the recorded audio due to the sampling frequency, but it's still a very primitive synth compared to whatever modern programs the full song was made in, and where you can do much better mixing and have full control over the song without involving any programming.
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SNES vs Genesis Sound
- Thread starter Beerman462
- Start date
It doesn't really eat any extra memory. Barring small compression differences, a 2 minute song is the same size whether it's a full orchestra or a single instrument. The hardware synth could in some ways be bit higher quality than the recorded audio due to the sampling frequency, but it's still a very primitive synth compared to whatever modern programs the full song was made in, and where you can do much better mixing and have full control over the song without involving any programming.
protomouse
Member
Not really odd, as he's one of my favourite composers
. The soundtrack is also not only a technical feat, but also a good demonstration of the expressive range that only sample-based synthesis could pull off.Yeah it really makes no sense. The CD and non-CD music of Pier Solar share absolutely nothing in common. Pier Solar CD is just using PCM streams.
I mean that using a synth for audio variation is a lot cheaper than samples. You can create complex modulation throughout a track, with very little information being stored.. whilst to do the same with samples, you'd need a new sample for every unique variation you wanted (or a high quality sample large enough to simply hold the song in its entirety). A SNES would have no problems storing and playing back a small snippet of Thunder Force III's Genesis audio as a sample, however it'd become prohibitive very quick in terms of storage (and memory to load it in), whilst the Genesis would require very little storage to do the same, as it's simply generating it on the fly. It's like comparing playing a game online, versus playing that same game via PS Now. There's a shitload more that needs to be transferred if the system isn't the source.
The Genesis can play back crystal clear uncompressed PCM, but has no method of storing said PCM for actual implementation in a game. This has devolved from a discussion of "SNES vs Genesis sound" to "theoretical performance of the Yamaha YM2612 vs SNES APU isolated from the actual constraints of the hardware."
Who exactly is moving the goalposts again?
They couldn't ever create 700 MB cartridges.
Sounds like you're correct, the Genesis chip technically could output better audio. But that isn't the title of the thread. Goalposts? Let's move them one more time in the spoiler.
Not everyone is drinking the kool-aid, don't get frustrated.
People who don't agree are so damn dense. Didn't they see the thread title change to theoretical performance of the Yamaha YM2612 vs SNES APU isolated from the actual constraints of the hardware? We're all so biased it means we definitely wouldn't ever buy Genesis hardware/software. I'll have to rescind my Daytona avatar since I have such a bias against Sega.
Yeah the thread title definitely must have changed. Great because a comparison limited only to the sound chips themselves allows us to completely remove storing said sounds from the equation. First it's chips, then it's machines. Which one do you want to talk about? Talking about streaming PCM on the Genesis as a machine is pointless because it couldn't do it outside of that Earthworm Jim 2 video you posted. No storage.
This was a clever deflection (it's all samples!) but completely ignores the storage side of the equation. Uncompressed samples were nearly useless on the Genesis. Earthworm Jim 2 isn't changing minds here. Pier Solar doesn't run on a naked Genesis, so it doesn't really factor in outside of a cool, theoretical scenario. It's completely reasonable to exclude it from the main discussion.
In the same post you insist on talking about "what's possible in a real scenario" "without additional hardware" and then gloss over the fact that Genesis cannot, in fact, play uncompressed PCM music in any real scenario outside of EJ2 posted above without additional hardware in the form of an expensive in 1992 CD add on. What was Armoured Priest saying about brick walls?
No it can't! It can't store the PCM. How many times must it be said? You could almost say we could be getting real tired of saying the same thing over and over.
Yeah, SNES natively supported hardware expansion via the cartridge slot. Those were SNES branded games running on nothing but an SNES console. Different than requiring a separate purchase of an additional add-on console and Sega CD branded games. Pier Solar is a hack, which requires add-on hardware, and was released 20 years later but we've been over this.
Great way to enter the discussion.
I really think it's more interesting to look at what could be done in the context of the actual hardware. Removing the chip from the limitations of the console really makes that discussion irrelevant as far as videogames are concerned. Pier Solar is a really cool example to throw out there but holding it up over and over as the defining last word is ridiculous because it's IMPOSSIBLE to run on Genesis hardware without a Sega CD for storage. End of story.
The interesting part of the discussion is how the engineers and developers worked around the cost constraints to deliver the best possible solution at the time. If you're considering add-ons that triple the price of the hardware years down the line it gets much less interesting. Also if you're considering things that were never accomplished during the run of the console, thus having little actual relevance, it also gets less interesting IMO.
We're discussing the audio output of the collective systems as a whole, and our sample data is the games that were actually released for the system. And you'll never see me claiming the Genesis sound chip is shit. I was always just disappointed that it didn't playback voices and sound effects without sounding pretty bad. Now I know that's because it can't decompress audio before playback, not any limitation of the sound chip itself. The fact remains that, well, it couldn't playback sound effects and voices without sounding pretty bad.
It's great to talk about why but retroactively solving all the problems of the Genesis 20 years later with add-on hardware doesn't mean it sounded better back in the nineties.
I think that's a really cool discussion, and a totally reasonable preference on the matter. Many of my favorite 16-bit tracks were on the Genesis, but in my opinion they all share a certain style. Pier Solar is the one exception to that, and then you have all these people coming in ignoring all the technical limitations that make that soundtrack impossible on naked Genesis hardware.
I think the only invalidating thing here is stuff that can only be done theoretically or with a whole additional console. I still don't really see how that is unreasonable but I guess I'm just trying to promote some Nintendo fanboy* narrative.
*Couldn't be further from the truth
Who exactly is moving the goalposts again?
They couldn't ever create 700 MB cartridges.
Sounds like you're correct, the Genesis chip technically could output better audio. But that isn't the title of the thread. Goalposts? Let's move them one more time in the spoiler.
Not everyone is drinking the kool-aid, don't get frustrated.
Hey, I knew I was butting my head against a brick wall. He's already made up his mind based off of biased information...and that's fine. (It's one of the things helping to keep Genesis/Mega Drive prices down so Shhhhhh)
People who don't agree are so damn dense. Didn't they see the thread title change to theoretical performance of the Yamaha YM2612 vs SNES APU isolated from the actual constraints of the hardware? We're all so biased it means we definitely wouldn't ever buy Genesis hardware/software. I'll have to rescind my Daytona avatar since I have such a bias against Sega.
Yeah the thread title definitely must have changed. Great because a comparison limited only to the sound chips themselves allows us to completely remove storing said sounds from the equation. First it's chips, then it's machines. Which one do you want to talk about? Talking about streaming PCM on the Genesis as a machine is pointless because it couldn't do it outside of that Earthworm Jim 2 video you posted. No storage.
This was a clever deflection (it's all samples!) but completely ignores the storage side of the equation. Uncompressed samples were nearly useless on the Genesis. Earthworm Jim 2 isn't changing minds here. Pier Solar doesn't run on a naked Genesis, so it doesn't really factor in outside of a cool, theoretical scenario. It's completely reasonable to exclude it from the main discussion.
In the same post you insist on talking about "what's possible in a real scenario" "without additional hardware" and then gloss over the fact that Genesis cannot, in fact, play uncompressed PCM music in any real scenario outside of EJ2 posted above without additional hardware in the form of an expensive in 1992 CD add on. What was Armoured Priest saying about brick walls?
No it can't! It can't store the PCM. How many times must it be said? You could almost say we could be getting real tired of saying the same thing over and over.
Yeah, SNES natively supported hardware expansion via the cartridge slot. Those were SNES branded games running on nothing but an SNES console. Different than requiring a separate purchase of an additional add-on console and Sega CD branded games. Pier Solar is a hack, which requires add-on hardware, and was released 20 years later but we've been over this.
Great way to enter the discussion.
I really think it's more interesting to look at what could be done in the context of the actual hardware. Removing the chip from the limitations of the console really makes that discussion irrelevant as far as videogames are concerned. Pier Solar is a really cool example to throw out there but holding it up over and over as the defining last word is ridiculous because it's IMPOSSIBLE to run on Genesis hardware without a Sega CD for storage. End of story.
The interesting part of the discussion is how the engineers and developers worked around the cost constraints to deliver the best possible solution at the time. If you're considering add-ons that triple the price of the hardware years down the line it gets much less interesting. Also if you're considering things that were never accomplished during the run of the console, thus having little actual relevance, it also gets less interesting IMO.
We're discussing the audio output of the collective systems as a whole, and our sample data is the games that were actually released for the system. And you'll never see me claiming the Genesis sound chip is shit. I was always just disappointed that it didn't playback voices and sound effects without sounding pretty bad. Now I know that's because it can't decompress audio before playback, not any limitation of the sound chip itself. The fact remains that, well, it couldn't playback sound effects and voices without sounding pretty bad.
It's great to talk about why but retroactively solving all the problems of the Genesis 20 years later with add-on hardware doesn't mean it sounded better back in the nineties.
I think that's a really cool discussion, and a totally reasonable preference on the matter. Many of my favorite 16-bit tracks were on the Genesis, but in my opinion they all share a certain style. Pier Solar is the one exception to that, and then you have all these people coming in ignoring all the technical limitations that make that soundtrack impossible on naked Genesis hardware.
I think the only invalidating thing here is stuff that can only be done theoretically or with a whole additional console. I still don't really see how that is unreasonable but I guess I'm just trying to promote some Nintendo fanboy* narrative.
*Couldn't be further from the truth
we're talking about the CD versions which are clearly a full length streams. and i'm guessing the fm channels are only used for sound effects
It does, but they don't count, because reasons.
It is a silly argument.
It's like judging the graphics capabilities of a console by the clarity of the FMV it can display.
I find that's seems to be the core of contention. The SNES is remembered for better sound because on average the games had better sound and for the purpose of video game sound tracks the SNES did pretty well. The Genesis chip could do a lot but it was hampered by the simple lack of hardware compression/decompression and cart memory size (and the use of bad drivers).
It's like the 360 vs the PS3 in graphics. The PS3 could do some interesting things when the SPU's were juggled right but few bothered so in general 360 > PS3 in graphic fidelity and performance. Same with SNES vs Genesis audio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn_jXf7FHGA
Sega Genesis on sudoku watch
I actually had forgotten about byuu's 21fx/MSU1 thing.
Here's an SNES game running with CD-quality audio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqXYPvhHMCo
http://byuu.org/snes/msu1/
This is a misrepresentation of the argument. The ability to playback pcm clearly was contended in this very thread. We are judging the genesis ability to clearly play pcm. A better analogy would br judging the number of colors a console can output at once and using fmv as a barometer.
What really bugs me in these discussions is how common it is with people spouting misinformation when praising the SNES to high heavens. The general rule of thumb seems to be that the less knowledgeable you are on how things work, the more conviction you have. The way some people revel in their ignorance is straight up cult-like. I've seen some pretty outrageous claims that there isn't a single bad SNES soundtrack (yes, really.), that it's infinitely more liberating to work with and that any Genesis soundtrack could be accurately recreated on the SNES just by sampling its instruments.
I'm gonna try to shed some light on how SNES music is created, and the subsequent challenges and concessions composers had to deal with back in the day which contributed to the typical SNES sound.
Here's a trumpet sound I made by sampling it from a Korg Wavestation and then trimming it down in an audio editor to something you typically find in SNES sound banks. The first part of the waveform to the left is typically refered to as the attack or the transient. This is where the most vital, defining information exists for the majority of instruments and in spite of often being so quick you barely even notice them, it's what we mainly use to identify what type of sound it is. For example a piano without the attack would be difficult to distinguish from bowed string instruments like cellos or violas.
Those red lines you see at the end are loop points I have assigned to the waveforms. Once the recording reaches the end loop point to the right, it starts over from the previous loop point, rinse and repeat. You gotta be real surgical when placing these and it can be a real pain in the ass to create a seamless loop that doesn't introduce other problems with how it sounds afterwards. Even with modern technology they probably didn't have to work with back then like crossfading macros.
So as for this trumpet sample in particular, I made the loop just short enough to still roughly sound the same as its source material. Saved at 22khz 16-bit mono it's about 1 kilobyte in size. Typically you sacrifice things like the natural decay in dynamics and instead try to simulate it afterwards through volume programming (usually through envelopes).
In general, composers would have several small, simple sounds like this to reserve space for more complex instruments that really require more length to still sound like their original counterparts (like electric rhythm guitar). The tradeoff is that these smaller sounds end up sounding very sterile and lifeless, lacking all the texture and movement that you would otherwise hear the instruments. Take this track from Super Chase HQ for example where virtually everything apart from the drums sound this way (if you can't play .spc files then try looking for SNES Amp for Winamp or Game Emu Player for Foobar).
The other problem with loops is that if they're very short they can actually oscillate so fast that they start detuning the sound after the attack. There are plenty of SNES soundtracks with tuning issues thanks to this, some of them slightly noticeable and some of them really blatant. Personally I find that the pre-Super SF2 ports are way above my tolerance threshold for this. It perplexes me how people think this sounds better than even the arcade original, though I suspect that's related to my initial rant about people deifying SNES music. The worst case of out of tune SNES music I've ever come across is Network Q Rally. I'm not even sure if it's due to the looping or if it's just sloppy work in general.
I don't really have a lot of first-hand information from composers sharing their experiences with working on SNES music, so some of it really comes down to speculation and educated guesses. There's very little documentation available compared to NES and Genesis composers which is a damn shame because I love reading about this stuff. But from what I have read it seemed clear that people had plenty of their own grievances with that format as well. It seems a lot of them didn't even bother creating their own samples as you hear plenty of recurring ones across several games. I don't know if they were included with a Nintendo devkit or something. I also recall reading that someone had to send over (as in physically mail back and forth) samples to Nintendo so they could process them into a format readable by the SNES and then send them back. It might even have been Yuzo Koshiro who said that when talking about Actraiser or Adventure Island, but I can't be sure. I don't know if this was due to some mandatory Nintendo policy, or that some developers simply didn't have the tech and know-how to handle that stuff internally, but I'm leaning towards the latter.
I think it's as per usual as with any other platform relying on sequenced music. It was really only a handful of Japanese and European composers/sound programmers (as they often overlapped) who really had their shit together to make the most out of things. American composers in general didn't seem interested at all in the technical side of things and would rather bypass it using middle man methods (such as GEMS for Genesis, or General MIDI on PC).
I'm gonna try to shed some light on how SNES music is created, and the subsequent challenges and concessions composers had to deal with back in the day which contributed to the typical SNES sound.
Here's a trumpet sound I made by sampling it from a Korg Wavestation and then trimming it down in an audio editor to something you typically find in SNES sound banks. The first part of the waveform to the left is typically refered to as the attack or the transient. This is where the most vital, defining information exists for the majority of instruments and in spite of often being so quick you barely even notice them, it's what we mainly use to identify what type of sound it is. For example a piano without the attack would be difficult to distinguish from bowed string instruments like cellos or violas.
Those red lines you see at the end are loop points I have assigned to the waveforms. Once the recording reaches the end loop point to the right, it starts over from the previous loop point, rinse and repeat. You gotta be real surgical when placing these and it can be a real pain in the ass to create a seamless loop that doesn't introduce other problems with how it sounds afterwards. Even with modern technology they probably didn't have to work with back then like crossfading macros.
So as for this trumpet sample in particular, I made the loop just short enough to still roughly sound the same as its source material. Saved at 22khz 16-bit mono it's about 1 kilobyte in size. Typically you sacrifice things like the natural decay in dynamics and instead try to simulate it afterwards through volume programming (usually through envelopes).
In general, composers would have several small, simple sounds like this to reserve space for more complex instruments that really require more length to still sound like their original counterparts (like electric rhythm guitar). The tradeoff is that these smaller sounds end up sounding very sterile and lifeless, lacking all the texture and movement that you would otherwise hear the instruments. Take this track from Super Chase HQ for example where virtually everything apart from the drums sound this way (if you can't play .spc files then try looking for SNES Amp for Winamp or Game Emu Player for Foobar).
The other problem with loops is that if they're very short they can actually oscillate so fast that they start detuning the sound after the attack. There are plenty of SNES soundtracks with tuning issues thanks to this, some of them slightly noticeable and some of them really blatant. Personally I find that the pre-Super SF2 ports are way above my tolerance threshold for this. It perplexes me how people think this sounds better than even the arcade original, though I suspect that's related to my initial rant about people deifying SNES music. The worst case of out of tune SNES music I've ever come across is Network Q Rally. I'm not even sure if it's due to the looping or if it's just sloppy work in general.
I don't really have a lot of first-hand information from composers sharing their experiences with working on SNES music, so some of it really comes down to speculation and educated guesses. There's very little documentation available compared to NES and Genesis composers which is a damn shame because I love reading about this stuff. But from what I have read it seemed clear that people had plenty of their own grievances with that format as well. It seems a lot of them didn't even bother creating their own samples as you hear plenty of recurring ones across several games. I don't know if they were included with a Nintendo devkit or something. I also recall reading that someone had to send over (as in physically mail back and forth) samples to Nintendo so they could process them into a format readable by the SNES and then send them back. It might even have been Yuzo Koshiro who said that when talking about Actraiser or Adventure Island, but I can't be sure. I don't know if this was due to some mandatory Nintendo policy, or that some developers simply didn't have the tech and know-how to handle that stuff internally, but I'm leaning towards the latter.
I think it's as per usual as with any other platform relying on sequenced music. It was really only a handful of Japanese and European composers/sound programmers (as they often overlapped) who really had their shit together to make the most out of things. American composers in general didn't seem interested at all in the technical side of things and would rather bypass it using middle man methods (such as GEMS for Genesis, or General MIDI on PC).
sure, if one console has a full 2D GPU with multiple layers and sprites, and the other one only has a single framebuffer but slightly higher color depth.
Neither console has any real possibility of playing FMV, but yes the higher res one could theoretically produce a better fmv, but it is undeniably weaker hardware and worse for all the real world uses.
You can argue all you want about the the merits of FM synth vs samples, but trying to claim that megadrive is better at playing samples is just silly.
I'm saying the argument is moot, because:
- The primary storage medium of both consoles, cartridge, is insufficient to carry PCM music.
- The FMV comparison is apt, because you're not gauging the capability of the console itself. The PCM audio soundtrack was produced on other hardware and simply played back on the console.
Speaking of FMV stuff, the Megadrive Bad Apple demo was pretty impressive to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vPe452cegU
Very smooth, full resolution, long with PCM audio throughout. Obviously not very colorful though, lol.
Very smooth, full resolution, long with PCM audio throughout. Obviously not very colorful though, lol.
The obnoxious tone is only is response to the obnoxious bits quoted, and only after a lengthy thread derail. I truly believe this is an interesting discussion otherwise.
And as far as feelings go, if I have nothing but a Genesis and a copy of any version of Pier Solar, it sounds like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o6T9PJ2o6Q
How do you feel about that? I don't know what else to say.
Armoured Priest
Member
Since you quoted me directly, I'll give you a response.
For what its worth, i wasn't directing my statement at you, but rather refering to another poster. I could go back and cull for quotes (remaining contextual of course, because I'm not a politician
) that demonstrate a lack of desire to have a constructive discussion on the subject. Which begs the question "why did I bother in the first place?" I'll answer that. For the unknown lurker who wanted an honest answer to question. Also, i won't claim to be at lazygecko's level when it comes to working with FM, but I am a classically trained musician with a focus in composition. Whether someone likes the sound of FM synth is totally subjective (much like how some people love death metal and other can't stand it, even if they generally like metal otherwise). Analyzing compositional depth can be a bit more objective.
I say straight up Uematsu and Mitsuda are worthy of their reputations...I'd also put Koshiro's and Sakimoto's Mega Drive work up there as well. They all had the added benefit of tech people who did a reasonable job of transfering their musical vision into digital form. I lament then number of reasonably good composition completly ruined on the Mega Drive by the use of the GEMS drivers (Outrun 2019. i don't know if that game used GEMS off the top of my head, but whatever drivers were used were used badly IMO, but the compositions were actually pretty decent)...I also lament the number of reasonable good compositions completely ruined on the SNES by crap samples (seriously, F-you Capcom).
I took issue with the insinuation that there were ZERO Genesis soundtracks with the breadth of scope as a small, specific list of premier titles on the SNES. I feel like my examples show that statement to be incorrect.
As for the basic discussion, the discussion on what the Genesis and SNES ACTUALLY did during the main sequence of their life-cycles vs what each is theoretically capable of...you're correct, they are two different disscussions. I would like to point out that both discussions have merits. I would also like to point out that the current thread title is kind of vague, and allows for both discussions (I doubt its worth anybody's time to split this thread into each component argument).
My comment of whether the Sega CD/32X should count in these discussions is basically this: Where do you draw the line? A number of SNES games benefitted from add-on chips that enhanced compression ability (almost always to the benefit of audio, even if that wasn't the direct point of the chip). That chip is an incurred cost, above and beyond the norm. Is that really so different from an external add-on? I'll grant you it invites discussion of cost and whether the extra cost of a Sega CD or 32X is worth it vs the cost of the S-DD1 in Star Ocean or SF Alpha 2.
it's a pretty decent track even without the enhancements.
if we were to compare it to a similarly lower budget RPG on SNES, i think it fares much better.
That's an interesting bit of information I hadn't heard before. That would certainly change my perception on a couple of games since I don't want to qualify games relying on external hardware integrated into carts to go beyond vanilla specs. Didn't seem to do a lot of favors for the audio in SFA2 though, as the music there is about as barebones as you can get.
Armoured Priest
Member
Its true that SFA2 makes virtually noone's list of awesome soundtracks. Your rebuttal would have more weight if the same was true of Star Ocean, which is often lauded for its audio.
There' weren't many add on chips used, that's true...however if you're going to have a discussion on hardware, you need to reckon add on hardware if one is going to offer up software using that add-on hardware as an example.
Frankly, I generally don't count most of the add-on chips against the SNES (at least for audio arguments). Most of them were mearly some sort of math co-processor to improve performance. But some of them do directly benefit the audio, and it is an extra incurred cost and extrension.
The thread title actually tells us very little. It doesn't say SNES sound chip vs Genesis sound chip. It doesn't say SNES sound in released games vs Genesis sound in released games. It doesn't say SNES vs Genesis as things were 20 years ago, and so on... which I guess is why there's so much disagreement amongst us over the topic. I was focusing on the chip itself, as in lieu of any clarification in the thread title, I read the OP which states:
..then the following posts all follow a similar pattern:
And that was basically how essentially every post in the topic began, So if you're wondering how I got the idea that the discussion was more about the audio chips than anything that was actually made with them... well, there you go.
I was only excluding the SNES example because I thought that if the only way it could produce such audio was to obtain essentially every resource the machine has, then it's more than the sound chip being responsible. However, that doesn't even matter now, because I consider this:
... to be valid, seeing as the only thing it appears to be doing is removing the storage capacity problem, and isn't actually taking over audio duties for itself. If we're ok with Starfox, then I'm ok with this tbh. So, yea, I'd be happy to drop the PCM stream conversation at this point, and return to arguing synth vs samples (my name on here should tell you all you need to know about where I stand in this dicussion, lol).
Although you're not actually replying to me. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not actually saying that I think the Genesis is better than the SNES at sampling.. more that if it's in anyway comparable, then the additional synths make it the better chip overall imo, as the Genesis has the option to use samples to approximate the types of sound a SNES makes, whilst the SNES completely lacks an analogue synth to approximate the Genesis sounds with.
I don't think it's a very accurate comparison as the Genesis is still able to use its FM synth alongside the PCM audio. I'd say something like REmake is a better analogy.
IrishNinja
Member
^thank you synth
i see Uncle Rupee never replied, shame that
the one user i was addressing who said it was about voice samples (and couldn't be convinced otherwise) or the other that was downplaying Koshiro's noteworthy SOR work? they were both a few posts back from the post you're quoting.
interesting phrase there, given that synth's prior post showed only a fraction of the meme-like posts being replied to.
what if it's not sega bias to recognize the greatness of the oft-mentioned SNES JRPGs/DKC/etc OST's but still believe it ignorant to say the Genesis had no OST's on that level? would that ruin the false dichotomy you have going there?
he actually entered it last year, and has added numerous replies with links in the time since. if you were following, youd've seen that.
i see Uncle Rupee never replied, shame that
the one user i was addressing who said it was about voice samples (and couldn't be convinced otherwise) or the other that was downplaying Koshiro's noteworthy SOR work? they were both a few posts back from the post you're quoting.
interesting phrase there, given that synth's prior post showed only a fraction of the meme-like posts being replied to.
what if it's not sega bias to recognize the greatness of the oft-mentioned SNES JRPGs/DKC/etc OST's but still believe it ignorant to say the Genesis had no OST's on that level? would that ruin the false dichotomy you have going there?
he actually entered it last year, and has added numerous replies with links in the time since. if you were following, youd've seen that.
MrCunningham
Member
Yeah, the FMV is neat, though similar to Red Zone, which also had full resolution video for its intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEJozFUZpiM. Though the game used two colour video to keep the file size small, black and transparent. The BG was a static image.
Sonic 3D Blast also had a FMV intro as well, but it was in colour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNS4_8ZX_tc
Though obviously neither of those games used PCM tracks for cartridge size reasons. The PCM audio was probably done by using a waveplay engine mod.
I've never seen a first post so full of wrong.
well you can approximate synth sounds by having prerecorded synth samples, although it's a bit more limited and won't have exactly the same quality. The megadrive can't play more than one pcm sample without resorting to software mixing, which is the the whole point of having a dedicated sound chip, so no it's not very good at replicating snes sounds either.
MrCunningham
Member
EWJ did have better music on the Genesis though, and not only that, had a lot more in game sound effects. The SNES game was missing roughly half the voice samples/ sound effects from the Genesis version for some reason.
Maybe I'm more used to the SNES, the music sound so much better to me.
The Boom Camel
Member
As a kid, I always preferred the sound of the SNES. If anyone ever asked me why, I would always pop in Spiderman and the X-Men in Arcade's Revenge. The music in this game is still my favorite SNES music of all time.
Gambit's Stage
Character Select
Gambit's Stage
Character Select
IrishNinja
Member
nice! that's literally the first kind thing ive read about that game, haha. better than that one awful wolverine title screen song that just had a voice sample saying "WOLVERINE" over some beeps
Tim Follin da best.
MrCunningham
Member
SNES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9DZxkc_VMM&index=12&list=PL6akIKaXBeU03eXkh_ArMLbjb2bXpcPTL
Genesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0m4U9smFss&index=4&list=PLE4D22047D2F5794E
SNES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_9m9Ckam1c&index=3&list=PL6akIKaXBeU03eXkh_ArMLbjb2bXpcPTL
Genesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtHJUyzfVfI&list=PLE4D22047D2F5794E&index=3
They sound better on the Genesis to me. Though to be honest, a few odd tracks like "What the heck?" do sound better on the SNES. I guess the music can be subjective, but what isn't subjective are all the missing sound effects from the SNES game. It was also missing an entire level from the Genesis version as well. Maybe they had some storage constraint issues? Overall, the Genesis version was the better game of the two.
Though Earthworm Jim 2 was another story, music and sound were generally better on the SNES, aside from maybe one or two tracks.
Biggest issue with the SNES versions of those tracks is the bass, the Genesis can pump out the sexiest fucking bass without trying.
Yea, I know you can somewhat approximate the synths with samples, but they lose more than quality, they also lose flexibility. You can't really simulated the modulations of a synth with a sample without simply recording it in its entirety. On the other hand the samples that a SNES plays back are mostly just pitch shifted, which is something the synth has no problems doing when required. So whilst the sound is more coarse, the songs melody and structure generally remains intact from SNES to Gensis. Whilst stuff like:
Streets of Rage 3 - Dub Slash
Thunder Force IV - Stage 8
Ecco 2 - Tube of Medusa
...are the kind of things a sampler running with very limited memory will want absolutely no part of.
Basically when it comes down to what each is missing.... 1 > 0 at the end of the day.
The Genesis version of EWJ doesn't make the voices fight over RAM space with any PCM music samples (apart from drums), hence they can fit more of them at once.
And though it hasn't been explicitly stated so far since we're just comparing the two versions to eachother, I'd still like to remind people about this:
In this context Tallarico was pretty good at handling PCM playback on the system and convinced the team to give it a high priority for their games. This sort of outshines his otherwise fairly average FM sound design.
And though it hasn't been explicitly stated so far since we're just comparing the two versions to eachother, I'd still like to remind people about this:
In this context Tallarico was pretty good at handling PCM playback on the system and convinced the team to give it a high priority for their games. This sort of outshines his otherwise fairly average FM sound design.
Basically when it comes down to what each is missing.... 1 > 0 at the end of the day.
It's more like 1 grape > 0.5 Apples. Sure if you like grapes.
It's still very subjective and while removed of the constraints of the actual system the Genesis chip might be more capable and it certainly is better for more aggressive synth rock tracks but for general all around videogame soundtracks it wasn't remembered as well. The SNES chip has it's problems, the Genesis one has it's virtues, and they both had really bad sound tracks in many games but I'd subjectively say I preferred the SNES soundtracks in general.
Earthworm Jim is superior on Genesis. Tommy Tallarico did great work on the system, and his games are the few multiplatform titles that you could reliably say are superior on the Genesis in the audio department. He preferred the audio tools on the system and the system itself actually, and it shows in his work.
The basslines in Super EDF are pretty awesome, there's even a bass solo in the track "Boss Attack", which is kinda funny, how often do you hear that in a game. I think it's the most bass-heavy SNES soundtrack I've ever listened to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H9xCgJM8B0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Bw2bo73xQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylYNHANprok
Wonko_C
Member
I liked Xardion game just for this music alone:
http://youtu.be/l484O3gDGYk
http://youtu.be/l484O3gDGYk
I quite like Super Aleste / Space Megaforce for its bass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6S_0OnOPEc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsQ_Rmw8lC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWSngQttqU
How do you get half an FM Synth? You probably don't also want to make the PCM channel a grape whilst trying to get your point across.
I didn't really find these to be very good displays of bass at all to be honest (or even SNES sound in general). I think Axelay is the best I've heard from a SNES in terms of bass.
Axelay - Cosmic Dancer
Axelay - Bio-Tech
How do you get half an FM Synth? You probably don't also want to make the PCM channel a grape whilst trying to get your point across.
I didn't really find these to be very good displays of bass at all to be honest (or even SNES sound in general). I think Axelay is the best I've heard from a SNES in terms of bass.
Axelay - Cosmic Dancer
Axelay - Bio-Tech
Oh shit Axelay, that game was crazy for the SNES overall.
Well I like Super EDF :<
I wasn't familiar with Space Megaforce's music, that's pretty awesome. And Axelay is one of the GOATs. Speaking of shmup OSTs on the SNES, Super R-Type's is pretty underrated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ph7T9tiak
Solo Sortie has to be one of the all-time best SNES tracks.
I wasn't familiar with Space Megaforce's music, that's pretty awesome. And Axelay is one of the GOATs. Speaking of shmup OSTs on the SNES, Super R-Type's is pretty underrated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ph7T9tiak
Solo Sortie has to be one of the all-time best SNES tracks.
Well, I wasn't really talking about the track as a whole, just the bass sound.
This Super R-Type track for example has a much better bass sound imo. It doesn't sound like 3/4 of the frequencies are missing, haha.
MrCunningham
Member
It must have been a RAM thing, a lot of unique sound effects in the Genesis game were replaced with commonly used sound effects from other things. I wonder what tricks they were using for the SNES version of EWJ2? This was a game that had problems being emulated for a long period of time due to sound issues.
My words exactly!
Member
Both consoles had games that sounded awful, both had games that were tailored to their hardware and those sounded awesome.
Personally, i preferred SNES but that's due to liking its' games more.
Some random SNES picks
Donkey Kong Country 3 - Rockface Rumble
Waterworld - Diving
Waterworld - Attack 2
SNES Rock & Roll racing
Btw this could add to the ongoing discussion about sound capabilities IMHO:
Top 5 Uses of Surround Sound on SNES
http://www.gamnesia.com/articles/throwback-thursday-top-5-uses-of-surround-sound-on-snes
Personally, i preferred SNES but that's due to liking its' games more.
Some random SNES picks
Donkey Kong Country 3 - Rockface Rumble
Waterworld - Diving
Waterworld - Attack 2
SNES Rock & Roll racing
Btw this could add to the ongoing discussion about sound capabilities IMHO:
Top 5 Uses of Surround Sound on SNES
http://www.gamnesia.com/articles/throwback-thursday-top-5-uses-of-surround-sound-on-snes