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SNES vs Genesis Sound
- Thread starter Beerman462
- Start date
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I'm no longer interested in the discussion as you guys are mainly focusing on Pier Solar as the game that proves your point, which I don't think qualifies due to its requirement of the SegaCD. In statistical terms Pier Solar would be eliminated from the discussion anyway due to it being an extreme outlier compared to the general sound quality of the games on the system. Meanwhile, you can eliminate any number of the SNES's best soundtracks for whatever reason you desire, and still have enough ammunition to prove that it could produce better sounding games.
Green. I could explain why objectively... but I doubt you'd understand.
EDIT: Oh hell no... not after that edit we're not!
Go back and read Armoured Priest's post. He answered you well, with plenty of non-enhanced examples. The SNES isn't simply better because you say so.
IrishNinja
Member
everytime i see that glorified mode 7 demo on a top whatever SHMUP list i think the same
...seriously?
Armour replied to your earlier post about genesis OST's on par with the SNES. i've tried to bring this to your attention several times now...not word one on my part about Pier Solar.
ISS had strong bass on SNES:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnP9ganZ-kE
Also the contrabass in this song in Front Mission is sweet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSYUDq17UkI&list=PL25E064043CCE3C96&index=25
The one that filled the most the first level in Daikatana.
Moving away from the synth discussion and just posting awesome SNES music for fun; I give you Radical Dreamers:
Frozen Flame
Days of Summer
The girl who stole the star
Final confrontation
Admittedly I haven't heard it on real hardware for obvious reasons, but the spc files are glorious
Frozen Flame
Days of Summer
The girl who stole the star
Final confrontation
Admittedly I haven't heard it on real hardware for obvious reasons, but the spc files are glorious
ElectricThunder
Member
Really, there's still a tremendous number of games on both systems that have yet to be experienced the world over that may well further deepen the pool of greats on both ends. Absolutes matter as well as ongoing doings---tech is alive so long as the hardware, documentation, and proper emulators/simulators are out there... to "retire" a musical instrument after even a mere decade is absolutely comical in the grand scheme of things.
Surging Aura, for one, on the Genesis has what I hope to be an excellent score---as I believe it was one of the very last big-effort RPGs on the system so it at least had the table set for them, as it were.
Homebrew ongoing projects on both are also great to see....will already never get tired of the Project Y Sampler demo cuts as it just has that timeless quality to it:
https://soundcloud.com/tulioadriano/project-y-sampler2-by
Surging Aura, for one, on the Genesis has what I hope to be an excellent score---as I believe it was one of the very last big-effort RPGs on the system so it at least had the table set for them, as it were.
Homebrew ongoing projects on both are also great to see....will already never get tired of the Project Y Sampler demo cuts as it just has that timeless quality to it:
https://soundcloud.com/tulioadriano/project-y-sampler2-by
Oh yeah, those are freaking awesome.
Ironically the story behind the SNES sound chip was Sony taking a look at the NES chip and offering Nintendo to make a state of the art chip for their upcoming console. This partnership evolved into the SNES CD agreement, which collapsed thanks to Nintendo being greedy with cart manufacturing and Phillip's trolls. Sony got back at Nintendo by spearheading SNES CD tech to make the PS1. Such was Nintendo's pride back then.
The rest is history.
The rest is history.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Good summary. One thing that I can't get behind with the SNES chip was how so many games sounded muffled and murky, like its being smothered by a pillow or something. At least Genesis was upfront and crisp, even if it led to a more metallic sound.
SeventhSon
Member
Not quite right.
this song from Ganbare Goemon 4 has some pretty nice bass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ReqfFpMG4E
the series in general had some great music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_bbkof75fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXV6esOacdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ReqfFpMG4E
the series in general had some great music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_bbkof75fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXV6esOacdc
The deal fell apart because Sony got greedy with CD-ROM royalties and effectively locked Nintendo out. If Nintendo hadn't killed it they'd probably not exist today.Ironically the story behind the SNES sound chip was Sony taking a look at the NES chip and offering Nintendo to make a state of the art chip for their upcoming console. This partnership evolved into the SNES CD agreement, which collapsed thanks to Nintendo being greedy with cart manufacturing and Phillip's trolls. Sony got back at Nintendo by spearheading SNES CD tech to make the PS1. Such was Nintendo's pride back then.
The rest is history.
IrishNinja
Member
...man this thread is loaded enough without bringing the whole sony/nintendo failed CD-ROM debacle into it
least we could agree on is that publicly fucking sony was ill-advised, and the CD-I sucked
I think one of the best showcases for the advantages of having longer, evolving sounds is in Tim Follin's Time Trax works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFd6M_6Nto
Notice how the guitar lead gradually tails off into the upper harmonics. I just love how he accomplished that. With the short SNES guitar samples you can't really pull that off. There are however a few that would alternate between 2 different sounds to achieve a similar (albeit not seamless) effect. The only one that comes to mind at the moment is from an unreleased Green Lantern game scored by Dean Evans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3anHMXmAr5Q
In fact Dean Evans is probably my all time favorite composer for the system. He even pulls off some rudimentary FM effects in a musical fashion (from what I assume is altering loop points in real time?) as heard here and here. The music itself is also fucking awesome, naturally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXFd6M_6Nto
Notice how the guitar lead gradually tails off into the upper harmonics. I just love how he accomplished that. With the short SNES guitar samples you can't really pull that off. There are however a few that would alternate between 2 different sounds to achieve a similar (albeit not seamless) effect. The only one that comes to mind at the moment is from an unreleased Green Lantern game scored by Dean Evans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3anHMXmAr5Q
In fact Dean Evans is probably my all time favorite composer for the system. He even pulls off some rudimentary FM effects in a musical fashion (from what I assume is altering loop points in real time?) as heard here and here. The music itself is also fucking awesome, naturally.
Vipershark
Member
No it couldn't.
The Genesis produced uncompressed sound while the SNES used only compressed samples.
The reason why most Genesis games sound terrible is because the composers didn't know how to use the sound hardware.
Making music on the SNES was essentially "pick a sound and put it somewhere" while the Genesis was a full synthesizer and composers had to custom-create the sounds it used. It was more like learning an entirely new instrument and custom-tuning it while the SNES was (relatively) like Mario Paint's music composer by comparison.
For people that could handle it, the Genesis could produce far better sound. Look at Yuzo Koshiro and all of the Streets of Rage games, for example.
Most composers simply weren't good enough to take full advantage of what the Genesis offered, resulting in a huge chunk of its library sounding like crap.
SNES is only "better" in the sense that it was easier for composers to use and therefore had a bigger portion of its library with great music.
These are awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Plok, unsurprisingly another Tim Follin creation, also does something like that. Not as well as that Dean Evans track, though, I think. Man that guy has to be the unsung hero of SNES music.
MrCunningham
Member
Ah yes, the original F-Zero soundtrack. Still one of my all time favorites on the SNES.
Also, I missed these two earlier, but that Ecco 2 track in the first link is really haunting especially this part right here. The second one isn't bad either. To be honest, I have never really payed eith Ecco game on the Genesis. Maybe a little bit of the first one, but never the second. The first Ecco game I've owned was on the Sega CD, so I was always used to listening to the redbook audio of the CD version. Same with Ecco 2, I've only ever played the Sega CD version.
Shadow Hog
Member
No offense, but I think you may be, actually. See, what I grew up with was the Windows 95 Special Edition version, which had a proper redbook audio soundtrack and everything. Didn't grow up with any console version of the game. So, to me, that is what sounds correct - and funnily enough, more often than not, the redbook audio version sounds closer to the Genesis version than the SNES one.
Let's take MrCunningham's post and edit in the Special Edition versions for comparison. You'll see what I mean:
And a few more he didn't include, for good measure:
"Psy-Crow!"
SNES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbM65b-CWTg
Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DaGg7Lhvzc
Special Edition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U-wxhvth4c
"For Pete's Sake"
SNES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fp-dKoREaI
Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs45aeb-Ug8
Special Edition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No42W3VlgOY
Assuming the Special Edition version is Tommy Tallarico's authorial intent - and why shouldn't it be, given it's redbook audio and therefore not bound by the shackles of either console's sound chip? - the Genesis version sounds closer to it of the two. Beyond just the samples used, the SNES version is clearly playing completely different notes in spots (the orchestra hits in "Psy-Crow!", the opening bass in "For Pete's Sake"). It's why, in this specific case, I'm giving the edge for this game to the Genesis version overall.
Which is part of why I'm so annoyed the HD remake decided to completely ignore the already-existing CD-quality soundtrack and instead do their own remasters based on the inferior work. Then again, that HD remake was sub-par in many ways beyond just that slight...
Piston Hyundai
Member
They totally should've just used the CD audio, but Jim's voice was by far the lamest part of that remake.
Sapiens
Member
Ironically the story behind the SNES sound chip was Sony taking a look at the NES chip and offering Nintendo to make a state of the art chip for their upcoming console. This partnership evolved into the SNES CD agreement, which collapsed thanks to Nintendo being greedy with cart manufacturing and Phillip's trolls. Sony got back at Nintendo by spearheading SNES CD tech to make the PS1. Such was Nintendo's pride back then.
The rest is history.
Incorrect. The irony is that Sony's Kutaragi heard the NES's majestic sound and then informed SEGA that they should go super yamaha FM megazord and he would then create a chip for Nintendo that would be a terrible wavetable sample based frankenstien that made everything sound like toast.
Kutaragi then secretly helped engineer the MD sound hardware so that it would be superior - as evidenced by masterpieces like the sonic tracks, shin obi III and others.
Also, it is rumoured that Kutaragi and Yuzo Koshiro are secret brothers.
Wow, didn't know the unreleased Green Lantern had the music uploaded on youtube.
IrishNinja
Member
damn, how far along was it? not that most comic book games were any good back then but as a GL fan, i would've likely dug this.
Another SNES game with fantastic music is Ihatovo Monogatari:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuvnzDd6i4&list=PLFA0FFBB9FFB4D266
You can see a few screenshot on Unseen64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuvnzDd6i4&list=PLFA0FFBB9FFB4D266
Should have been completed.
You can see a few screenshot on Unseen64
IrishNinja
Member
damn, wish we had a ROM leak...wonder what the story is on that one now
The story is already on Unseen64.
http://www.unseen64.net/2013/01/02/green-lantern-snes-cancelled/
DC wanted additional changes to the game which would have made it go too far over budget, so Ocean scrapped the project instead. A couple of the songs made for the game ended up in Waterworld instead.
http://www.unseen64.net/2013/01/02/green-lantern-snes-cancelled/
DC wanted additional changes to the game which would have made it go too far over budget, so Ocean scrapped the project instead. A couple of the songs made for the game ended up in Waterworld instead.
SeventhSon
Member
I'll accept this if you accept the same for SNES regarding fast action games.
Is the SNES technically better than the Genesis for fast action games? I always assumed it was simply worse at it due to the CPU, rather than it simply being a case of people not knowing what they're doing.
Lol at people not knowing how to use the hardware.
The Megadrive is better at some very specific things, and some of the techno tracks are awesome, but if you don't want a synthy sound you're screwed. It could never do anything like the Radical Dreamers soundtrack.
Yes the snes samples are compressed, but what good are uncompressed samples if you can't store them and can't play more than one at a time? For any acoustic instrument a compressed sample is still leagues better than any cheap synth sound.
SeventhSon
Member
A properly programmed SNES game is just as capable of fast no-slow down action/animation as Genesis. There were several games not properly programmed, particularly early in its life, that lead to its slowdown reputation. So it's a similar situation with Genesis sound/music, proper composition can make great music, but there is a lot of bad music and "robot farts" from developers who didn't address that area sufficiently.
I also think a lot of Genesis reputation for bad audio comes from the later model 2s, which have poor audio encoders compared to the originals, so there's a double whammy of some poor composition and just bad components that give a general impression that isn't the whole story.
Vipershark
Member
I'l admit that there are some things that the Genesis does better (synth sounds, bass, etc) and there are other things that the SNES does better (orchestral sounds, for example) but I'm serious about people not knowing how to use the hardware.
If you don't believe me, give VGM Music Maker a try and tell me you can make something that doesn't sound like crap without a whole lot of practice or prior synth knowledge. It's a tracker designed to replicate the Genesis' YM2612 sound chip, and is lightyears easier to use than the sound programming that the original composers had to use.
Making music on the SNES was simply much easier since all of the sounds were right there laid out before you and it was more like picking a sound and playing it in different notes that sounded good rather than actually having to make the sounds you want yourself.
isn't there intrinsically a greater input lag from controller to system with the SNES as well?
Your original post made it sound like you thought the megadrive could do pretty much any SNES soundtrack at better quality if only people weren't incompetent, which was both hilarious and offensive.
Sure I can buy that it's probably a bit harder getting the most out of a synth, but that doesn't mean that its capabilities are that different from what we're used to hearing. And there's certainly challenges involved with both systems. Creating good samples that work within the memory restrictions isn't an easy feat either; you don't get the quality in some of the best snes games by using simple stock sound library samples.
eh no? they're both running at 60 fps with no framebuffer and designed for CRTs, and the controller interface is very basic. Unless you're talking nano seconds I'm not sure how such a thing would even be possible
Vipershark
Member
I'm not saying that the Genesis can do it better, but it's likely that with the right composers, you could be on par or at least close.
That's why games with music by Tim Follin, Yuzo Koshiro, the Sonic Sound Team, etc all sounded so great. Look at the Sonic games, for example. They sound so unlike (better than) pretty much anything else on the system because they had first-party sound engineers who were intimately familiar with the hardware and knew how to make it produce exactly the sounds they wanted.
Most, if not all of the Sonic music (excluding non-mainline games like 3D Blast and Spinball) has a completely different sound to most other games and you can't really hear that trademark "twang" that Genesis games are known for.
It only makes sense that games with crappy and/or twangy soundtracks are by composers who simply didn't have the available knowledge or resources that the first party developers had.
I'll just refer to my previous posts on some of these topics, most of which are in that other thread which petered off.
Crash course on the specs + general strengths and weaknesses of each chip
On simulating orchestral music
On how SNES music is created and the difficulties/limitations faced by the composers
And once again for good measure... On the pseudo science of comparing ports to assess the merits of an entire system
Amazing episode of AVN. Thanks to post it. I agree 100% with him.
Were there just no sound effects in Mortal Kombat on the Genesis? lolz
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I saw that post, and keep in mind I'm not saying I think any of those games sound BAD. I'm just saying I think the SNES games I listed have better OSTs. Yes, Genesis sounds clearer and I get some people don't like the "muffled" Snes sound. Personally I never had that issue.
Also, I was not the one who brought up the costs associated between superfx and 32x, that was the other guy trying to claim it was cheaper to buy a 32x and the equivalent number of games compared to the "inflated" costs of superfx carts which is why I explained to him that comparing one superfx cart to a 32x game requires that you add the cost of the 32x peripheral. Besides, why would you want to compare the cost of multiple games when there is only like one or two games at most worth owning on the 32x to begin with (and really same deal on SNES with superfx)?
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
60 fps on Snes. Oh lol, you made my day.
Wonko_C
Member
Outside PAL territories that was actually the case.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I think he was referring to the slow down that plagues many a SNES game...
edit: but actually this is a really good point. I mean, if you only ever experienced the SNES in PAL land, I would almost say you didn't experience it. I've seen some of the slow-down associated with running NTSC games in that format and I can't stomach it. This might actually explain why so many people prefer the Megadrive / Genesis over the SNES over there...
I don't know how it compare to genesis, but Top Gear (SNES) had some of the catchiest song.
Top Gear - Track 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45xpqOPbFdQ
Top Gear - Track 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45xpqOPbFdQ
Armoured Priest
Member
I've always had a great deal of respect for Iwadare (best known for the Lunar osts). One of his lesser known games was Wings of Wor (AKA Gynoug).
Great shoot em up.
I've always been particularly impressed by the level 3-1 track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHkzzd0ItIQ
Its not often you hear a fugue in a game soundtrack.
Great shoot em up.
I've always been particularly impressed by the level 3-1 track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHkzzd0ItIQ
Its not often you hear a fugue in a game soundtrack.