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[Visualante]

Visual effects another creative, technical and highly popular industry lacks a union unlike the film crew, acting, writing counter parts. You can read some discussion about unionisation here http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/ I think the two industries are quite interchangeable and the AAA model of games is catching up to the numbers of staff in visual effects as production values go up (digital groomer is now a mid level job title in visual effects).

I think it's something that should happen in visual effects because many of the popular movies today wouldn't be possible without these effects but the staff on the ground aren't seeing the financial rewards or quality of life that the commercially successful projects receive.

I'm completely put off by working in a mega studio, aside from what I can learn from them in terms of working practices, pipeline. It seems the management structure is completely broken, cycles are too short and teams are pushed to implement features that aren't really do-able in that time frame. I'd like to see studios that don't have crunch (or very little) time be made example of and have the rest of the industry learn from that.

What you're starting to see though in response to this, is that many of the most talented folks are realizing that they'll be happier/healthier/richer not working for the big companies- and this is why we're seeing more indie projects these days.

Yup, and outsourcing companies. One group of people left EA to start their own company and now they do high end outsourcing (entire level/map designs) for other publishers/developers. Distinct from the Eastern outsourcing where the work is quite labour intensive they do actual gameplay stuff because of their experience. Publishers/developers need to take note that if working conditions are too bad there will be mass exodus of staff like at Infinity Ward, EA, etc. Edge wrote a huge article on these outsource companies from the UK (and Europe I think) last year.

guilds are also only usually for freelancers, and gaming industry isnt a freelancer industry per se. yes, there are freelancers, but not on the scale of hollywood, where practically everyone is a freelancer.

Because it's so hard to fire someone it's becoming the norm that you give everyone a short term contract.. wouldn't a guild protect people like that? I'm mostly looking at the UK here with this point.

 

[Dachande]

If people don't want to work the hours the gaming industry asks, the door is right over there. There's a hundred other people who will take their place.

Way to miss the point. There's no excuse for treating any employee-- junior or veteran-- badly.

 

[Morn]

i think its got more to do with unions being a relic of the past where jobs were pretty terrible. but many of the things unions fought for are now law. game industry is relatively new, so they haven't really seen a need for a union.

unions are just lobbyists, at the end of the day.


guilds are also only usually for freelancers, and gaming industry isnt a freelancer industry per se. yes, there are freelancers, but not on the scale of hollywood, where practically everyone is a freelancer.

This.

When I was in a union it was painfully obvious that they gave jack shit about their members and were more interested in contirbuting member dues to a political campaign and looking for opportunities to draw attention to themselves.

 

[Morn]

Way to miss the point. There's no excuse for treating any employee-- junior or veteran-- badly.

Just about every single state has employemrnt laws prohibiting that. A union isn't needed to prevent it.

 

[C-Jo]

Way to miss the point. There's no excuse for treating any employee-- junior or veteran-- badly.

Long hours don't necessarily equate to bad treatment or working conditions, though. Speaking for myself and my colleagues, we do it because we're hungry, passionate and legitimately enjoy the process.

Besides, crunch is crunch--it's not like that all the time.

 

[Jackson]

Speaking for myself and my colleagues, we do it because we're hungry, passionate and legitimately enjoy the process.

Ya, but you're the quintessential fresh-faced kids eager to replace the burn outs. A lot of companies rely on people like you to be used up and spit out in 5 years. You enjoy it now, because it's new and you're working on your own stuff. Try doing those hours with low pay, student loans, crappy jerk managers who make your life hell, no one listening to you because you're a newbie while you slave to work on some awful licensed game you know is going to get a 5/10 and never going to make it's deadline. Thats the real industry, then there's the industrial in the media the top 10% of companies who make great stuff, but most people don't work at those studios with awesome jobs as leads.

Besides, crunch is crunch--it's not like that all the time.

Depends on the studio. Do you consider 6 months to 18 months of 6-7 days a week at 10-12 hours a day "not all the time?"

Plenty of studios do this. We don't, but we're not owned by publicly traded publishers with quarterly earnings reports.

Death marches are far more common in the industry than the media ever exposes.

 

[DiscoJer]

To a certain extent though, it's not just the game developers. The whole industry is built off of cheap labor in other areas as well.

The press, for instance. I'm sure some get paid reasonably well, but how many sites are there that are run by volunteers? Some of them might get compensated somehow, but they likely don't even come close to anything like minimum wage (or even a 1/10 of it).

Then you have things like FAQs and guides. Do a search for a game and probably the top 10 results are "So and such is the best place for _____ trailers, screenshots, guides, cheats, reviews".

Gamefaqs is built off of crowdsourcing for the FAQs. I think sometimes they offer bounties for popular games, but that doesn't come close to the amount of time it takes to write one. And same with official guides. Most of those don't pay all that much and have insane deadlines.

So why do people do it? They like it.

 

[Lime]

I have no idea why people think unions are a negative thing. Maybe it's tied to the cultural history of the US, with the Red Scare, the 'American Dream' and the 80's Reaganomics. The positives of joining a union should be pretty intuitive.

And those who argue "budgets would blow up", "kids/mexicans will take our jobs", "won't somebody please think of the poor companies?" are drinking too much Kool-aid and should be asking themselves whose interests they actually are lobbying for.

 

[Jackson]

I'm sure some get paid reasonably well

Define reasonably well. If you said 45k average salary, then you'd be correct. I wouldn't define that as reasonably well though. I'd call that, decent, if you're a young adult with no family and no debt.

 

[Kaltagesta]

I don't work in the video games industry, but i do work in the animation/visual effects industry which is fairly similar in terms of skill level, specialization, industry age and the passion of its workforce, I believe.

I think the main reason there is not a union is because it always has been a fairly highly skilled job. Unions came about from mostly unskilled workers whorequired collective bargaining to get the quality of work or pay that they wanted. In my industry, you don't meed a union to do that, you can do it yourself. If the company doesn't value your worth enough to capitulate to your demands, then why should you have them met? This isn't a mechanical function of a production line - if you're fantastic at your job, you'll be worth a lot more to your employer than a random new higher, which is where it varies significantly from the unskilled labour base that spawned unions in the first place.

There is also the fact its a young industry. It changes every few years. The industry now looks very different to ten years ago, and similarly the roles people play within a production have changed. In my experience, if anything has displayed its hesitance to react to change slower than corporate management, it is unions. When you have someone whose role it is to make sure people don't get made redundant (and that IS what any union would become), it makes of very difficult to change. Mo-cap mean you need less animators? Well, if you try to male half the animators redundant, your artists and programmers will strike too! That's really only in the short term interest of those animators, and no one in the long term.

Finally, I'd rather promotions be on the basis of merit and skill. Whilst I appreciate that this requires effective management, thereis no way I would want to strike to ensure my co workers get a better salary, because I don't feel that most deserve a better salary than they get now. Right now, that's none of my business and none of my concern, but when I'm asked tl threaten strike action on their behalf, it becomes my concern, and even aside from self-interest purposes (ie our payroll going on other people means its not going to me), I don't believe they deserve it.

In short, I wouldn't join one evven if it existed. (Sorry for any typos).

 

[Dachande]

Long hours don't necessarily equate to bad treatment or working conditions, though. Speaking for myself and my colleagues, we do it because we're hungry, passionate and legitimately enjoy the process.

Besides, crunch is crunch--it's not like that all the time.

And if it's voluntary like it is with you guys, that's fine. I have no problem with people choosing to work long hours. But in most cases (see: Rockstar) it's not, and those are the cases where protection is needed.

"Just quit" as someone else in the thread said isn't a sane argument.

Just about every single state has employemrnt laws prohibiting that. A union isn't needed to prevent it.

If the laws were good and robust enough to prevent it, it wouldn't happen all the time. They clearly aren't.

 

[Duffyside]

"Just quit" as someone else in the thread said isn't a sane argument.

It's not? See, I would say believing that people are entitled to jobs—that it is their inherent right to be employed by someone, somewhere—is what's really insane.

 

[C-Jo]

Ya, but you're the quintessential fresh-faced kids eager to replace the burn outs. A lot of companies rely on people like you to be used up and spit out in 5 years. You enjoy it now, because it's new and you're working on your own stuff. Try doing those hours with low pay, student loans, crappy jerk managers who make your life hell, no one listening to you because you're a newbie while you slave to work on some awful licensed game you know is going to get a 5/10 and never going to make it's deadline. Thats the real industry, then there's the industrial in the media the top 10% of companies who make great stuff, but most people don't work at those studios with awesome jobs as leads.

I realize my last post sounded pretty naive, but I get what you're saying.

Sure, I'm working on my own stuff. But it's not like I have complete creative freedom to make whatever I'd like personally. As it stands, I'm working these hours with massive student loans and no pay at all.

I wouldn't classify myself as the fresh-faced kid who thinks the industry is AAA roses and sunshine. I know that I'll be lucky to work on a project that even remotely interests me as a gamer, but that's cool. If I'm stuck making licensed dreck for the rest of my career, I'll just have to do what I can to make the best licensed dreck possible.

At the end of the day, it's work. At least this field gives me the opportunity to work on something that interests me.

Depends on the studio. Do you consider 6 months to 18 months of 6-7 days a week at 10-12 hours a day "not all the time?"

I can deal with 6 months, but it's hard to say, really. We all know which companies do that and which don't. Fresh out of school, I'll take whatever I can get. But with a little experience, I'd like to think that there's always options.

 

[IrishNinja]

When I was in a union it was painfully obvious that they gave jack shit about their members and were more interested in contirbuting member dues to a political campaign and looking for opportunities to draw attention to themselves.

it is highly possible not all unions are like yours, thankfully. some are quite important.
also, the state laws you're hoping for don't stand for much in states like mine that are right-to-work.

 

[beat]

If people don't want to work the hours the gaming industry asks, the door is right over there. There's a hundred other people who will take their place.

There certainly are many people who think they can be designers.

There aren't many who actually can be.

 

[Jackson]

I realize my last post sounded pretty naive, but I get what you're saying.

Sure, I'm working on my own stuff. But it's not like I have complete creative freedom to make whatever I'd like personally. As it stands, I'm working these hours with massive student loans and no pay at all.

I wouldn't classify myself as the fresh-faced kid who thinks the industry is AAA roses and sunshine. I know that I'll be lucky to work on a project that even remotely interests me as a gamer, but that's cool. If I'm stuck making licensed dreck for the rest of my career, I'll just have to do what I can to make the best licensed dreck possible.

At the end of the day, it's work. At least this field gives me the opportunity to work on something that interests me.


I can deal with 6 months, but it's hard to say, really. We all know which companies do that and which don't. Fresh out of school, I'll take whatever I can get. But with a little experience, I'd like to think that there's always options.

You can always go indie. Stick it to the man!

 

[Dachande]

It's not? See, I would say believing that people are entitled to jobs—that it is their inherent right to be employed by someone, somewhere—is what's really insane.

As jorma already said to you on the first page, workers shouldn't be trapped by their jobs, driven to work unreasonable hours and denied the right to have a life because they need to support their families and cannot afford to be unemployed while they find another job-- one, I might add, that is most likely the same.

This isn't about believing to have an "inherent right to be employed", it's about having any rights at all in a situation where you have no options.

 

[C-Jo]

You can always go indie. Stick it to the man!

That is a very real possibility.

Edit: To clarify, I mean work for a smaller, independent developer like Hothead or Klei.

 

[Jackson]

That is a very real possibility.

Edit: To clarify, I mean work for a smaller, independent developer like Hothead or Klei.

Ya those kinds of options are great if you can get em. I like Klei... I know Jamie Cheng the founder he's a really cool, down to earth guy. Super nice.

 

[shinki]

I do genuinely have worries, and have considered a union (the same union that covers BBC workers also covers interactive media) but as someone else said for every person who wants to join a union there are 10 others who don't care. Unions do usually provide legal cover though which gives you more room to stand up for yourself in dire situations.

And to the people who are implying that no-one complains about crunch, it's not that simple. When you have a mortgage and a family to feed you don't have the luxury to complain. When they say work every day, you work every day. When they give implied threats you come in more than you want to.

That isn't me, and that isn't my situation, but it happens and I'd like to have some way to avoid it. A union is probably the best bet.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

This.

When I was in a union it was painfully obvious that they gave jack shit about their members and were more interested in contirbuting member dues to a political campaign and looking for opportunities to draw attention to themselves.

I was in a union, and they helped me get back to work after some bogus firing. I no longer work there anymore, but I guess I had very good experiences with labor unions, shit helped me out personally, so i saw the effect. No way I would have gotten my job back on my own. Shit is daunting.

edit: and I agree with some of the above posters. The industry lives off the passion of it's hungry young workers, who badly want to create games, and the enthusiast press, which is filled with freelancers, who just do it for free. How long can they burn out the old, live off the young, and repeat that cycle?

And not everyone works at Bungie, or Dice. You guys aren't interested in floating up everyone else through collective bargaining?

 

[Casp0r]

And to the people who are implying that no-one complains about crunch, it's not that simple. When you have a mortgage and a family to feed you don't have the luxury to complain. When they say work every day, you work every day. When they give implied threats you come in more than you want to.

If you need to support a family, you shouldn't be working in an incredibly unreliable, unstable industry. Game development is art, not industry.

If you want to support your family, go into a reliable, respected job.

I was in a union, and they helped me get back to work after some bogus firing. I no longer work there anymore, but I guess I had very good experiences with labor unions, shit helped me out personally, so i saw the effect. No way I would have gotten my job back on my own. Shit is daunting.

edit: and I agree with some of the above posters. The industry lives off the passion of it's hungry young workers, who badly want to create games, and the enthusiast press, which is filled with freelancers, who just do it for free. How long can they burn out the old, live off the young, and repeat that cycle?

And not everyone works at Bungie, or Dice. You guys aren't interested in floating up everyone else through collective bargaining?

Unions are made up the exact same people that run company's. Some will be good, Valve, Bungie, Dice ... but the unfortunately majority will be bad.

 

[Sqorgar]

Anybody who has a problem with how the game industry works has already left it, finding a much better job making three times the money working six times less hours a week with actual job security and the prospect that their job might still be there three years from now. So all you have left are the dumb asses who are too stupid to realize how badly they are being manipulated and exploited. So yeah, they aren't going to unionize.

Edit: I worked for Activision.

 

[Dyno]

This industry really came into its own in the nineties, when the social contract was already being re-written. After the North American recession of 91-92 there was a lot of changes to corporate hiring practices (i.e. casual/temporary employment) which made organizing labour much more difficult. Shortly thereafter it became the norm and it wasn't challenged, not by the established industries whose unions agreed to a two-tiered benefits scheme and certainly not by new, budding industries like video games.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

btw, i read somewhere that only 3% of EA employees were unionised globally. Apparently every single one of them worked at DICE.

I guess this means BF3 will be delayed for another couple of years...

Mirror's Edge 2 (((

 

[enewtabie]

I never knew the work hours in Europe were like that.That just seems strange lol.

I just went back to 40 hour weeks after working for a year and half of 75 plus. It's really weird getting home early and actually doing things. At least I can enjoy the NC weather instead of leaving at dark and getting home in the dark.

 

[webrunner]

Even we lowly testers find it hard to complain too much because of this. 100 hour weeks with California OT laws are awesome even when you're on the lower end of the scale. The day management whispers the words "exempt salary" shit will get real though.

In Ontario, "Information technology professionals who use specialized knowledge and professional judgement to work with information systems based on computers and related technologies. " are exempt from most job protections such as extra overtime pay, hours of work laws, etc. Most jobs will be pretty reasonable about it though. Overtime is usually paid back as days off during not-crunch.

 

[FLEABttn]

Anybody who has a problem with how the game industry works has already left it, finding a much better job making three times the money working six times less hours a week with actual job security and the prospect that their job might still be there three years from now. So all you have left are the dumb asses who are too stupid to realize how badly they are being manipulated and exploited. So yeah, they aren't going to unionize.

Edit: I worked for Activision.

Question. Average working hours in my industry is 1920 per year (number doesn't include PTO or holidays). The overtime probably doesn't push it above that much. What do you suppose the average is for game devs/artists, or, if you don't want to guess for the industry, how many a year were you working?

 

[TommyT]

Overtime pay only legally works for manual labor (in the US). Desk jobs don't get this benefit. There might be state that does do this, but I don't think so.

http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/workhours/overtime.htm

After working for the state

Spoiler

Texas bitches... F YEAH!!

a few years, I've seen enough payroll 'mistakes' that has allowed some desk working people (programmers) to get overtime. While this 'mistake' was in their contract, it was in effect until they signed a new one and they often made more than the director of their departments.

edit: was just clarifying . We deal with some contract programmers right now (ones that are considered their own company and are contracted out, not someone that has signed a contract at their job as I was talking about before - stupid nomenclature), and if they get near going to overtime it obviously has to be OK'd. Still, they can rake it in!

 

[flyinpiranha]

Haha! I have never seen this before. So awesome.

 

[Lathentar]

Also, again speaking as a programmer, alot of these people, think about what they're going to do after they get off work: They're going to go home to their single life, turn on their playstation, play some video games, do some hacking / programming on their computers, and go to sleep. They may or may not think about how it sucks that they don't get out more and have more friends.

They're already doing that at work, and getting free meals in the process. Many (but obviously not all) of these people don't have much of a social life, and work is where most of their "friends" are, so it's really not all that bad being at work.

At some companies that might be true, but as the industry is maturing it is becoming less and less the case. People are getting older, getting families and wanting to spend time with their families. Should they need to give up what they are passionate about just to have a family? Hopefully not and it has been causing a lot of growing pains.

 

[ReBurn]

Why so much assumption that employers are evil and only want to abuse their workers? Modern unions are just corporations themselves, and in my experience they don't do much to help people in white collar work.

I prefer the right-to-work model because it makes me responsible for my own success. Unions make workers faceless and limit opportunities for an individual to succeed. When employers are forced to treat everyone equally nobody is able to stand out. Sure, I can be released without cause, but if I strive to make myself valuable through constant self improvement the chances of that happening are lower.

 

[SovanJedi]

Because I hate all the other artists, get off my lawn.

 

[subversus]

Edit: I worked for Activision.

on reception?

 

[Mr. B Natural]

There are too many young people begging, willing to give their entire lives up to get in this industry. They either feel they owe company #14522 their lives for the opportunity to work or working is all they know (which is why they got the job in the first place). There are too many people that do this stuff 12+ hours a day and usually have no where else to go. Can't unionize when nobody has their own interests in mind and are essentially business martyrs. Why go home after a full days work when you can NOT go home?

 

[charlequin]

I'd put it down to this: game industry workers are largely happier to be crunched to death than other fields' programmers and artists and otherwise exploited. I don't know why.

There is no easier way to exploit a man and steal his labor from him for your own personal enrichment than to tell the man that he is creating art.

The overwhelming amount of people against them tended to be American developers who believed that unions were bad things.

Corporate interests waged an intense (and extremely successful) war against unions and collective action/identification by workers in America. Most people now have never belonged to a union or had their family's income depend on one; many people who are exposed to unions see only the sclerotic husks that protect lifer interests at the expense of new hires and think this is the natural state of organized labor rather than a consequence of anti-union policy and a disinterested workforce.

They can unionize the gaming idustry. Just don't complain about $100 games then.

I know. I mean, look what happened to movies! (derp)

Why so much assumption that employers are evil and only want to abuse their workers?

"Evil" doesn't have to come into it; the absolute and legally unshakeable requirement to maximize profit ensures that corporations will zealously attempt to maximize the work they get out of each dollar they pay out, while broad and sweeping incompetence will ensure that almost all large corporations drastically undervalue QoL and HR intangibles under the assumption that a miserable workforce that can be instantly replaced are always the most efficient.

It's actually quite plausible for small, privately-owned shops to treat their employees well, and that's by far the biggest advantage of working for such a company -- even without collective representation, you can often work a sane schedule for a reasonable salary and have your happiness be a meaningful consideration of the management. But at a big conglomerate like EA systemic factors are going to be working against you from day one.

 

[udivision]

I know. I mean, look what happened to movies! (derp)

...ticket prices went up?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I can't speak as a game programmer, but as a programmer. I can't imagine the hours are all THAT different for a game programmer under a deadline than they are for a regular programmer. I've put in my share of 60-80 hour work weeks.

It mostly comes down to the fact that we are fairly compensated for our work and workplace conditions are good. If we feel we are not fairly compensated we are free to look elsewhere because the job market for our profession is good.

That, and there's no place for unions in a country that has legislation in place to protect workers. But I guess this is more a political discussion than anything, so I think that's where I'll stop.

 

[afternoon delight]

I have no idea why people think unions are a negative thing. Maybe it's tied to the cultural history of the US, with the Red Scare, the 'American Dream' and the 80's Reaganomics. The positives of joining a union should be pretty intuitive.

And those who argue "budgets would blow up", "kids/mexicans will take our jobs", "won't somebody please think of the poor companies?" are drinking too much Kool-aid and should be asking themselves whose interests they actually are lobbying for.

It's very different reading this on the Gaming Side than the OT. There's a lot of negativity and weird assumptions about unions/onions over here.

I understand the "comfortable working environment" argument, but people literally cry every time a developer shuts down. And this:

it would at least prevent the "you've been fired and you find out because your keycard no longer works" incidents.

But I don't know enough about overall job security in IT, so I'm probably skewed. It just seems like you shouldn't have to put up with 65-80 hour work weeks. Even if you do "love it". Because the benefits can't be that good, and plenty of these AAA or AA places fold with overextension/bad management/business deals.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

What part of EA is unionized? Is that in Europe?

 

[shaowebb]

Everybody is doing too much overtime to be able to organise a union.

Absolutely this. We have our groups to keep ourselves in work, but there isn't a single industry artist who doesn't spend all his time and more dealing with just the day to day.

Theres nothing left over to organize, unionize, and hit meetings.

Also, there is a fear from those that talk up unions occasionally that even if they tried to they would just end up shipping things to Korea or elsewhere rather than deal with union people. It's hard to justify hiring a work crew with heavy demands when you have limited funding, and time to deal with per game or animation and NO guarantees that things will turn out perfect the first time you build something for either.

In a creativity based product nothing is routine, and to a degree everything is experimental. This means that you have to have a crew that you can simply overtime to death and a unionized pushy crew would probably be ignored for nonunion workers that would actually do the job without demands so that it could release on time and on budget.


EDIT: Also the benefits really depend on where you work in the games industry. Insomniac has one of the best benefits packages of anywhere on earth. Not a joke...they have several awards that prove this. Watch their ad campaign.

http://www.insomniacgames.com/careers

 

[Duffyside]

As jorma already said to you on the first page, workers shouldn't be trapped by their jobs, driven to work unreasonable hours and denied the right to have a life because they need to support their families and cannot afford to be unemployed while they find another job-- one, I might add, that is most likely the same.

This isn't about believing to have an "inherent right to be employed", it's about having any rights at all in a situation where you have no options.

They're not trapped. They can leave. they can start their own business, they can find another job, they can change careers entirely, ETCETERA.

I wish I could fully convey just how repugnant I find it to start a family when you aren't confident you can support them. However, knowing that this happens anyway does not mandate the employer to provide a job, or healthy food, or a masseuse.

I don't think a lot of people in this thread seem to understand what the word "right" means. You have the right to free speech; that means no persons or government can deny you your ability to freely express your thoughts. It does not mean that someone needs to buy you a microphone or a website.

So, fine, you have the "right" to healthy food at your job. Bring your own, and no one should be allowed to rip it out of your hand and slap a piece of pizza in there instead. You have the right to not work long hours. No one is putting a gun to your head; you are agreeing to work them. If you don't want to, leave. I promise that no one will throw you in jail for doing so.

 

[Littleberu]

That, and there's no place for unions in a country that has legislation in place to protect workers. But I guess this is more a political discussion than anything, so I think that's where I'll stop.

I know you don't want to get into that debate, but insurance and health care is not something every companies provide, and certainly not something the government is close to support.

It's not unusual, even with a lot of jobs available in a game industry, that you may get cut. In these case, an Union could help for many months to survive with health insurance and other such benefits. This can be a great thing, especially if you have kids.

Now, the reason why we don't have unions is hard to pinpoint. Many people believe that it's because the market is so big and profitable, but technicians, screenwriters, directors and such jobs in the movie industry all have unions.

 

[krae_man]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

Here in Ontario the ESA(Employment Standards Act) addresses the maximum number of hours you can be forced to work a day or week, and number of days straight. Employers can make working beyond those provisions a condition of employment if the job requires it and the employee agrees to it in writing in advance.

I don't get the standard 100 hour work weeks though. Wouldn't hiring twice as many people and not paying them overtime be way cheaper? Plus you would get the benefit of everyone having a life and not getting burt out.

 

[sangreal]

I don't work in the game industry, but man I wish I were unionized or at least got OT pay. The practices at my company would have to change drastically.

 

[Vustadumas]

Personally, I don't think we need to unionize. I really don't need someone to speak on my behalf, and take a chunk of my money, because they are 'protecting' me. Sure, it can suck when deadlines loom, and you've gotta work some crazy hours, but it all balances out, for the most part. Not every day is a 12+ hour day.

Some studios will take that passion you have, and try to suck it dry. If they burn you out, they just find someone else, rinse and repeat. If doing what you love burns you out, I would consider finding another career. I've been doing this a long time now, and I still absolutely love what I do. A lot of that can be contributed to where I work, since they take very good care of us, but I've worked at the sweat shops as well.

 

[Warm Machine]

Fixed.

Oh I know, but sometimes the confusion and lack of direction is coming FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE! Oooohhh.

I have stories to tell but not on a public forum.

Go indie is nice and it is my plan, just support me is all...assuming you like my game.

 

[Jackl]

Unless entire industry went for it, wouldn't work. Too mobile, too easy to turn over.

As is right now companies aren't afraid to axe entire development houses, pick up shop and move somewhere else. Unions would only scare management into that mode quicker. Unless no matter where they went the run into the same workers union wherever they go.



....and then they go to Eastern Europe...

 

[jorma]

They're not trapped. They can leave. they can start their own business, they can find another job, they can change careers entirely, ETCETERA.

You are just reiterating the same argument that was already adressed.

I don't think a lot of people in this thread seem to understand what the word "right" means. You have the right to free speech; that means no persons or government can deny you your ability to freely express your thoughts. It does not mean that someone needs to buy you a microphone or a website.

You forgot about the freedom of assembly. The employer employee relation has an inherent conflict built in. The employer wants to maximise his profits, the employee his salary, benefits and working conditions. The only way the employer gets a fair deal in this conflict is with a union, or if he is one of the rare irreplacable employees.

But yes, forming a union is obviously not up to the employer, it's up to the employees. I'm only saying that they have the right to unionise, and to use the collective power of a union to get as much as they can of the generated profits - and everyone should use that right.

I don't understand how anyone can argue for the corporations right to maximise their profits and at the same time deny the employees right to maximise theirs.

 

[Zabka]

i think its got more to do with unions being a relic of the past where jobs were pretty terrible. but many of the things unions fought for are now law. game industry is relatively new, so they haven't really seen a need for a union.

unions are just lobbyists, at the end of the day.

Without the money from unions to lobby politicians those laws would disappear.