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[TommyT]

...ticket prices went up?

Is there a direct correlation to that though? Or is it "one of the reasons". I mean, you could go watch a movie, get a drink, popcorn, and a bj for like $.25 back in the day right? Did prices go up from that due to guilds/unions as well?!

 

[Kruhex]

This just doesn't apply to the game industry but also to software devs and designers as a whole. There is no union because many people here are led to believe that unions are bad...somehow workers getting more rights is bad as it's socialistic and anything with that word is evil. People need to wakeup and not be placated by a small increase in salary but rather, mandated max working hours with optional overtime, protection from being fired for not wanting to break the law for an employer's abuse and much more vacation if you're working in North America (2 weeks is pitiful).

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Development costs would skyrocket if people unionized.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Development costs would skyrocket if people unionized.

Seems unsustainable as it is. That's a bigger issue than more vacation time for these guys, or no more "work 80 hours this week, or we'll replace you".

 

[-PXG-]

As long as the benefits, job security (in this industry?....lol) and dat pay are good, I'd be happy.

 

[Nista]

Hey now, not all OT/company provided food is greasy and unhealthy. We're all eating pho and vietnamese food right now for lunch. We get sushi quite often. Just got to have producers who actually listen and can find healthier catering options.

As for the main concern, artists and programmers might have enough standardization across jobs for a union, but we game designers are too varied and limited in quantity for a union to be useful.

Most game programmers I know are in the office late into the night because they want to be, not because they are forced into it. (Tend to be the ones without families, however) If not for their passion, our schedules and quality would be even more hosed than it is currently. Most of em get compensated quite well for it. That's generally not as true for designers because our job is considered "fun and desirable".

 

[schragnasher]

Union = lobby = licensing = increased cost to entry = less development = less choice

Do you really want to be forced into a union to develop on the xbox? That's the sort of closed shop thing that will most likely happen. The PC is an open platform, so there is noone for a union to bargain with. Microsoft is an entity that could be forced to play into union hands. A union is much more effective when it is not orchestrated by professionals, but run by actual workers. Ad Hoc temporary unionization makes much more sense and does not pervert the idea into a professional industry, which it should not be.

 

[Jackl]

This just doesn't apply to the game industry but also to software devs and designers as a whole. There is no union because many people here are led to believe that unions are bad...somehow workers getting more rights is bad as it's socialistic and anything with that word is evil. People need to wakeup and not be placated by a small increase in salary but rather, mandated max working hours with optional overtime, protection from being fired for not wanting to break the law for an employer's abuse and much more vacation if you're working in North America (2 weeks is pitiful).

Ideology aside, what does a private institution do when faced with high labor costs for a product that has close substitute in markets with lesser labor costs?

Now, in other jobs where migration is not an option or a difficult option: Public jobs, factory, specific labor, etc. You can leverage the fact the employer weighs the cost of moving with the cost of higher labor.

Now, with the entertainment business they only thing holding the company there is whats sitting in the chair. Unless you consider a snazzy office with a good view is what is really tying them down.

Now, unless you believe that you and your co-worker's work is unrivaled elsewhere(In which case why are you forming a union?), whats to stop the company dumping the entire operation and moving to a Right-To-Work state, or even out of country?

This may all sound like corporate speak, but it exactly what will be brought up in the boardroom when you drop the proposal to the managers.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Define reasonably well. If you said 45k average salary, then you'd be correct. I wouldn't define that as reasonably well though. I'd call that, decent, if you're a young adult with no family and no debt.

At the senior level, I would even go so far as to say that we get paid EXTREMELY well.

 

[mt1200]

how is working more then 40 hours even LEGAL?
don't they have laws for that?

Its legal in most of south american countries .

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

Not only would development costs raise but workers would be forced into all that nasty union political stuff.

Also, Can you imagine how NEOGAF would react if EA's or Atlus's workers went on strike?

Heh, imagine if the next Call of Duty was delayed an entire year due to an ongoing labor strike. This place would blow up.

 

[schragnasher]

This just doesn't apply to the game industry but also to software devs and designers as a whole. There is no union because many people here are led to believe that unions are bad...somehow workers getting more rights is bad as it's socialistic and anything with that word is evil. People need to wakeup and not be placated by a small increase in salary but rather, mandated max working hours with optional overtime, protection from being fired for not wanting to break the law for an employer's abuse and much more vacation if you're working in North America (2 weeks is pitiful).

I don't think there is too much hatred for private sector unions. They are a dying breed for many reason, but at their core are not incestuous the way public sector unions are. A private sector union can't bleed its company dry or they do more harm to their workers than good. In effect they bargain for how the profits of a company are distributed, and that is perfectly acceptable.

The problem people have these days are public unions, not beholden to the laws of economics and voting in the very people they will bargain with for unsustainable payments of nonexistent profits.

 

[cpp_is_king]

At some companies that might be true, but as the industry is maturing it is becoming less and less the case. People are getting older, getting families and wanting to spend time with their families. Should they need to give up what they are passionate about just to have a family? Hopefully not and it has been causing a lot of growing pains.

Of course not, but that's also becoming less and less the case. The places where it is the case are generally startups or very small studios. And also, to some extent, those companies doing mobile / F2P games where they're on a 4-6 month dev cycle.

All the companies you've heard of in the past that are "notorious" for overworking pepole are not nearly as bad as they used to be. Sure, when you're 4 months away from launch that's a different story, but that's not specific to games - any time you're delivering a software product on a certain deadline and you get close to deadline people go into crunch mode.

If the industry unionized it would change the playing field at a fundamental level. Your games would be $100 instead of $60, and 5 year dev cycle would be the norm. Since no consumer in their right mind would accept that, you'd pretty much just never see another AAA game again.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Of course not, but that's also becoming less and less the case. The places where it is the case are generally startups or very small studios. And also, to some extent, those companies doing mobile / F2P games where they're on a 4-6 month dev cycle.

All the companies you've heard of in the past that are "notorious" for overworking pepole are not nearly as bad as they used to be. Sure, when you're 4 months away from launch that's a different story, but that's not specific to games - any time you're delivering a software product on a certain deadline and you get close to deadline people go into crunch mode.

If the industry unionized it would change the playing field at a fundamental level. Your games would be $100 instead of $60, and 5 year dev cycle would be the norm. Since no consumer in their right mind would accept that, you'd pretty much just never see another AAA game again.

Exactly. Nobody would accept that. Hell most of us balk now at 60 dollar games. Unions may have been needed at one time but now they do more harm then good.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

I don't think there is too much hatred for private sector unions. They are a dying breed for many reason, but at their core are not incestuous the way public sector unions are. A private sector union can't bleed its company dry or they do more harm to their workers than good. In effect they bargain for how the profits of a company are distributed, and that is perfectly acceptable.

The problem people have these days are public unions, not beholden to the laws of economics and voting in the very people they will bargain with for unsustainable payments of nonexistent profits.

That's a bit opinionated on your part isn't it? I have no problem with public unions, and last I checked, most people didn't.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I don't think there is too much hatred for private sector unions. They are a dying breed for many reason, but at their core are not incestuous the way public sector unions are. A private sector union can't bleed its company dry or they do more harm to their workers than good. In effect they bargain for how the profits of a company are distributed, and that is perfectly acceptable.

The problem people have these days are public unions, not beholden to the laws of economics and voting in the very people they will bargain with for unsustainable payments of nonexistent profits.

I dunno, we just had to bail out GM and the private union there bled it dry. The steel companies in the US certainly aren't able to compete with foreign steel makers and unionization has a part in that. And we only need to look at the NFL for yet another ongoing example.

 

[Campster]

Game development studios don't have unionized workers because they operate in a tech field which almost uniformly doesn't allow, support, or have a tradition of unionization. Game development studios also didn't start cropping up en masse until the late 1970's/early 1980's, long after unions started to get broken up. There was never an opportunity for them to form and as the workers were comparatively well taken care of next to blue collar workers had no reason to. That's really it.

I am more than a little appalled at the idea that, without any meaningful figures or statistics, people can start throwing around the idea that unionized game development would suddenly take three times as long or have games that cost $40 more and be taken seriously.

 

[schragnasher]

That's a bit opinionated on your part isn't it? I have no problem with public unions, and last I checked, most people didn't.

I was responding to Kruhex opinion, this whole thread is pretty opinionated so i don't see how that matters. But my assessment of public unions is simply a fact, its an incestuous relationship. FDR (Mr. New Deal himself) was not a fan.

 

[schragnasher]

I dunno, we just had to bail out GM and the private union there bled it dry. The steel companies in the US certainly aren't able to compete with foreign steel makers and unionization has a part in that. And we only need to look at the NFL for yet another ongoing example.

I'm not saying that they won't try, but if not for silly government intervention they would have failed and been replaced, instead we get a continuation of bad decisions on the part of the union through a government bailout, thus again proving that the government supports failure.

 

[aronnov reborn]

i can already see it now in 10 years... Gears of War 8 delayed due to union strike.. company wants to only pay 80% of benefits instead of 85%...

 

[cpp_is_king]

I am more than a little appalled at the idea that, without any meaningful figures or statistics, people can start throwing around the idea that unionized game development would suddenly take three times as long or have games that cost $40 more and be taken seriously.

I am more than a little appalled at the idea that, without any experience in the industry or knowledge of what's involved in making a commercially viable game, people can start throwing around the idea that they know what the effects of cutting working time by such a huge percentage would have on the industry and still be taken seriously.

 

[Dachande]

I am more than a little appalled at the idea that, without any experience in the industry or knowledge of what's involved in making a commercially viable game, people can start throwing around the idea that they know what the effects of cutting working time by such a huge percentage would have on the industry and still be taken seriously.

I don't believe that even people who work in the industry like us do either.

If there's one thing I've learned from working in the games industry, it's that people in it really don't know that much more than people who are not.

 

[cpp_is_king]

I don't believe that even people who work in the industry like us do either.

If there's one thing I've learned from working in the games industry, it's that people in it really don't know that much more than people who are not.

At least we have a rough idea of how many man hours are needed to make a game and what schedules are like.

There are already way more financially unsuccessful games than there are financially successful games, and it's fairly easy to see that unionizing would only make that ratio worse. The consequences of that follow pretty logically IMO.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

So, if the work force had bargaining power with their employers, costs would go up what, 66%?

How can the movie industry, with it's unioned set designers, camera operators, gaffers, construction, writers, actors, and other staff pull this shit off, and have big budget movies?

 

[arnoldocastillo2003]

You need to know that US is different then the rest of the World, look at this, even latin america has UNION WORKERS or better known as syndicalist, at least in my country every profession has its own group or camara that helps the worker.

 

[cpp_is_king]

So, if the work force had bargaining power with their employers, costs would go up what, 66%?

How can the movie industry, with it's unioned set designers, camera operators, gaffers, construction, writers, actors, and other staff pull this shit off, and have big budget movies?

Because movies != software. That being said, nobody can give a really good answer to this unless they've worked in both industries. Up until about 3 months ago, I actually worked with such a person, but sadly I can't ask his opinion anymore.

I don't get why people keep trying to compare the industries, they are completely different from top to bottom.

 

[Campster]

At least we have a rough idea of how many man hours are needed to make a game and what schedules are like.

There are already way more financially unsuccessful games than there are financially successful games, and it's fairly easy to see that unionizing would only make that ratio worse. The consequences of that follow pretty logically IMO.

I don't really think game developers should unionize for a variety of reasons.

That said, I don't think the best reason for game developers to not unionize is because it would exacerbate the game industry's horrible business model.

 

[schragnasher]

So, if the work force had bargaining power with their employers, costs would go up what, 66%?

How can the movie industry, with it's unioned set designers, camera operators, gaffers, construction, writers, actors, and other staff pull this shit off, and have big budget movies?

I agree, i don;t think price would increase dramatically. I am more scared of closing off new entrants and consoles. Needing to join the union to develop on the xbox or something similar.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

I agree, i don;t think price would increase dramatically. I am more scared of closing off new entrants and consoles. Needing to join the union to develop on the xbox or something similar.

Yea, some George Lucas shit might happen. Don't know the answer to that one.

 

[djtiesto]

With 7 year dev times.

I like S-E and Valve games, this would be pretty easy to adapt to for me

 

[cpp_is_king]

I don't really think game developers should unionize for a variety of reasons.

That said, I don't think the best reason for game developers to not unionize is because it would exacerbate the game industry's horrible business model.

What do you think is wrong with the business model exactly? I mean I have my own thoughts about what they could do to improve their business model, but everything I'm thinking is stuff that we're already seeing implemented and 5 years from now will be the norm (Hint: Gamestop is the next Blockbuster).

But I mean if you're talking about how games shouldn't be $60 then what's the alternative, just make simpler games that don't take as long to develop?

We all use very well defined and well understood software practices, it's not like there's a magic wand that would allow us to produce the same quality software in less time. Something's gotta give, you don't get something for nothing.

 

[Flachmatuch]

I'm usually reluctant to use the word "brainwashed", but I think you have to be very well trained to believe in some of the bullshit people are spouting here.

 

[Campster]

What do you think is wrong with the business model exactly? I mean I have my own thoughts about what they could do to improve their business model, but everything I'm thinking is stuff that we're already seeing implemented and 5 years from now will be the norm (Hint: Gamestop is the next Blockbuster).

But I mean if you're talking about how games shouldn't be $60 then what's the alternative, just make simpler games that don't take as long to develop?

We all use very well defined and well understood software practices, it's not like there's a magic wand that would allow us to produce the same quality software in less time. Something's gotta give, you don't get something for nothing.

There are plenty of ways to cut costs, but none of them are appealing as long as you're making a AAA game. Really, the industry is amazingly refined at creating the sorts of games we see on a regular basis, and you're right - there's not really any way to further optimize costs there, short of some sort of revolution in tools or procedurally generated game content. The Call of Duties and Uncharteds of the world are always going to cost a pretty penny to manufacture and there's just no getting around that. The slow death of Gamestop an the used market will help, no doubt, but as content costs continue to rise (especially as we lumber slowly towards an even more advanced set of consoles in the future) that's not really going to address the core problem of a $50-$100+ million development budget and a team of hundreds working around the clock to crank out an amazing piece of software in a ridiculous amount of time.

Honestly anything I would suggest you've surely heard before - mid-tier games that aren't held to insane sales standards but are under smaller budgets and tighter time constraints, embracing non-photorealistic aesthetics to reduce content creation costs, decreasing overall game length to ensure everyone finishes the damned thing, etc. Again, none of this is applicable if you're making a Halo or Red Dead Redemption, but it would mean having a wider pool of less risk averse games out there. We've had the "nothing but blockbusters" model for a long while, and if the industry's track record for consolidation is any indication we're quickly getting down to a very very small number of companies who can compete on the AAA level. Eventually something's gotta give.

 

[element]

The reason why the game industry hasn't unionized is because of a lack of a strong focused governing body. Leadership at the IDGA is piss poor at best and highly regionalized.

While I don't see a union happening anytime soon, something will need to happen to protect profits that should be going to the people that acutally work on the game for years on end, especially when other unions/guilds that are more organized become more involved, say SAG or others.

It really isn't fair when a VO actor gets a $500k bonus for working for a month a game, while the programmer gets to keep his job (no bonus) for working for four years on the same game.

 

[2San]

Love some of the responses in this thread. "But but the games will get more expensive" Fuck labor rights if it means cheaper games! Honestly that's some pretty disgusting shit. Meanwhile people wonder why the higher-ups and shareholders get such a big profit cut. Unions only go on strike if there's actually money to be had. It's not in the Union best interest to let companies go bankrupt. People really are pretty brainwashed if they think Unions is something bad.

 

[charlequin]

So, if the work force had bargaining power with their employers, costs would go up what, 66%?

Very unlikely. The issues that unions would be likely to push for in an industry like game development would be largely intangibles -- sane work weeks, more vacation, etc. Most of these would contribute less to increased costs and more to a longer overall schedule (although not as much as it seems like it would -- it's widely documented that crunch time is extremely unproductive and it's generally much more cost-effective to simply budget enough time in advance.)

How can the movie industry, with it's unioned set designers, camera operators, gaffers, construction, writers, actors, and other staff pull this shit off, and have big budget movies?

There are a lot of reasons, although they include having better revenue streams, a more diversified slate of products, and a well-understood production process that lets them schedule films years in advance and provide wide buffers to allow for hiccups in production.

What do you think is wrong with the business model exactly?

It would be faster to list what isn't.

While I don't see a union happening anytime soon, something will need to happen to protect profits that should be going to the people that acutally work on the game for years on end

Right. In many ways, the old models of unions are irrelevant to many modern businesses, but the idea of group representation isn't. Developers get hosed in terms of enjoying the fruits of success from a product they've worked on and it shouldn't be that way.

 

[disco]

I don't think unions are a good idea.

 

[2San]

I don't think unions are a good idea.

I think not being in an union is a terrible idea. Funny how that works huh?

 

[FLEABttn]

I dunno, we just had to bail out GM and the private union there bled it dry. The steel companies in the US certainly aren't able to compete with foreign steel makers and unionization has a part in that. And we only need to look at the NFL for yet another ongoing example.

My Mazda was made in Japan, by union workers. My GF's VW was made in Europe, by union workers. So, GM fails because of union work but Mazda and VW don't?

Focusing on the bad example only of unions is like empty vessel only focusing on the bad examples of corporations.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Right, it wouldn't have to be a local 100, with dues or some shit. Whatever works in the industry should be tried. A soft union run by the workers themselves, with some form of legal council etc. Who knows. Nothing can be wrong with you guys getting together, and fighting for what you think you're worth.

 

[JWong]

In retrospect, how effective was the Writer's Guild strike in 2007-2008? All I remember is that it wasted a lot of money.

 

[Curufinwe]

And we only need to look at the NFL for yet another ongoing example.

What is the NFL an example of exactly? It seems like an extremely profitable operation that will never need any government assistance to me, and the fact the owners and players are having trouble agreeing exactly how to split the massive (and growing) revenues the league earns has very little to do with the other examples you gave.

 

[Of All Trades]

There are a lot of reasons, although they include having better revenue streams, a more diversified slate of products, and a well-understood production process that lets them schedule films years in advance and provide wide buffers to allow for hiccups in production.

I'd say the actual physical presence requirements of a successful movie studio system also contribute a lot; if game development was hugely concentrated in a few cities (like Hollywood is) then the ability for unionization would increase significantly.

 

[Ranger X]

I would be in favor they unionize. It's obvious this industry is sick right now and that people's health isn't respected. That's what generally happens when the employer is the only weight in the balance. I don't even understand people that aren't for unions unless they ARE abusive employers who want to continue they shady practices.

Ultimately, I think there shouldn't be unions. There should be better law. And everybody would simply have to comply. Health = 40 hours a week max. 12 hours a day max. It's been "proven" through many health researchs and supported by many other health researchs we can link on the subject. When you're doing more than that, you should have money compensation for your body strain. It should be basic, common, fundamental rights.

Anyways, to answer this thread's question, I think people in this industry whore their jobs too much. The result is that they don't have enough time or attention to think about themselves. This is quite sad actually. Employers should adjust to people and not the other way around. You higher end boss is all cool and healthy because he obviously think of himself in all of this.

 

[Lime]

i can already see it now in 10 years... Gears of War 8 delayed due to union strike.. company wants to only pay 80% of benefits instead of 85%...

Oh no! My Gears of War is delayed! Now I will have to wait to cut/shoot/slice my bros up! Damn those commie nazis for demanding fair work conditions! Waiting for my IGN 10/10 GOTY dudebro shooter is much more morally reprehensible than working 70 hours a week and not seeing one's loved ones.

And that is even assuming your ridiculous contribution to this thread is plausible (which it isn't, if you actually tried to think or read the many arguments put forth in the rest of the thread).

 

[subversus]

It really isn't fair when a VO actor gets a $500k bonus for working for a month a game, while the programmer gets to keep his job (no bonus) for working for four years on the same game.

what?

Bioware, we need to talk...

 

[ReBurn]

It really isn't fair when a VO actor gets a $500k bonus for working for a month a game, while the programmer gets to keep his job (no bonus) for working for four years on the same game.

That programmer either needs a better agent or a better lawyer, because he sucks at contract negotiations. He also needs to work on increasing his star power so he'll be more in demand next time around.

If the world were fair the production guy who works on a blockbuster movie for 18 months would make as much as the star who films scenes for a month and a half. Those guys are unionized and the disparity in pay is still there. So I don't see how unionizing necessarily makes things fair.

 

[jorma]

That programmer either needs a better agent or a better lawyer, because he sucks at contract negotiations. He also needs to work on increasing his star power so he'll be more in demand next time around.

Oh, so if every programmer in the industry had an agent to represent them, that would be totally different from having a union to represent them? smh

If the world were fair the production guy who works on a blockbuster movie for 18 months would make as much as the star who films scenes for a month and a half. Those guys are unionized and the disparity in pay is still there. So I don't see how unionizing necessarily makes things fair.

This is your reason for not wanting a unionised gaming industry? "Movie stars earn much more than camera men, therefore unions are not needed!"

 

[jim-jam bongs]

There is no easier way to exploit a man and steal his labor from him for your own personal enrichment than to tell the man that he is creating art.

Who would have thought that the 1st half of my career could have been summed up so accurately in a single sentence?

 

[oracrest]

In retrospect, how effective was the Writer's Guild strike in 2007-2008? All I remember is that it wasted a lot of money.

They were trying to keep from paying writer's for content delivered on "new media" such as the internet. Pretty fucked up if you ask me, and well worth a strike.

Think of how many people access programming via netflix streaming, hulu, and similar sites.