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So I'm at a Mexican themed party...

Do you feel this party is racist?


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The other way around seems like the intuitive way to word that.

Racism is caused by ignorance is a true statement, but it's a different premise than ignorance is caused by racism. So it's not an intuitive way to word it. It's saying something different. It goes in both directions, not just one.

I agree that explicit/intentional racism is not the only form. In the pool poster thread the other day I was pretty decided that I doubt it was intentional but it still stuck out to me as yeah, that's racism. Still, going down the path of anything having to do with cultural desegregation getting labeled racism I don't think is going to help things. Like, does this Mexican-themed party have to be completely researched and indistinguishable from an actual Mexican party to be free of racism? Are they even allowed to party in a Mexican theme at all? When there's no ill-intent and there's nothing to be bothered about imo, much unlike black face, then calling "racism" feels a little extreme. Forcing people into their cultural boxes with the race card is what I see might happen.

But what if people who performed black face have no ill-intent? Like with Zwarte Piet (Black Pete). Do you think that has been perpetuated because people who celebrate in that culture hate black people? Or do you think it's because they have a homogeneous cultural system that necessarily excludes a more intimate understanding of multicultural, or in this case black, sensibilities? I think that system should be called racist whether it's malicious or not.

Basically, I think if you have party using a theme from X-race based on characteristics of X race or culture, you're using these characteristics because they are easy identifiers from what differentiates them from you. And that makes your presentation of them a caricature. This is the definition of prejudice and stereotype, isn' t it?

Honestly, I feel you. I understand what you're asking. And I wonder the same. So I don't have an answer for you. I don't know where to draw the line. Like I said, I participate. I wore a friggin taco costume at said roommate's graduation in front of her Mexican family. I have no idea if that's okay in the greater scheme of things! I only know what I believe and that it's important to be open to the idea that no matter how hard I try to not do harm, I may not always be in the right.

I feel like your definition of racism is too broad. We may need a scale of insensitivity here. Let's not equate a Mexican themed party to black face.

They are absolutely not the same. Black face has its own problematic history. That goes without saying. But there are similarities which I outlined above. My question still remains, though. In that hypothetical situation, if no one was offended by racist behavior (black face), does it make the behavior not racist?
 
I'm sure by white mexican he means exactly that, a white mexican.

Like you said tho, white mexicans are "gueros" not gringos.

Yes, that is what I meant. The ones with light skin and blonde hair, or even the ones like Salma Hayek. Although for a long time, I didn't think think of her as white. But that's just a ignorant perception a lot of people have though when they're younger.
 
I suppose the outrage comes from looking at this situation with US optics, considering theeir history with racism. I mean, just looking at all the demeaning of all kinds of people in Mexican culture, this wouldn't be too bad for those standards.



All was fun and games until we get to this. Curse those tribal music guys that made this nonsense popular.

US optics? What do you mean by that?
 
I am trying to wrap my head around the thought that the OP was at this party, and instead of interacting with people there and enjoying himself, he felt the need to make a GAF thread and poll to see if it might be racist. Like, as if he needs GAF approval to be at the party or something.
 
I wonder what a "white themed" party would look like.
well, first you would need to search for a predominantly white land, so you pick for example germany:
lederhosen
beer
bratwurst.

english:
weird accent,
bingedrinking
and footballslurs

go for it, a themed party is by definition a THEMED PARTY
if you wanna hold a german party, be my guest, i don't care for these pety discussions when no ill intent is to be seen.
and so on...
do you understand that beeing white is not a culture in itself?
 
Racism is caused by ignorance is a true statement, but it's a different premise than ignorance is caused by racism. It goes in both directions, not just one.



But what if people who performed black face have no ill-intent? Like with Zwarte Piet (Black Pete). Do you think that has been perpetuated because people who celebrate in that culture hate black people? Or do you think it's because they have a homogeneous cultural system that necessarily excludes a more intimate understanding of multicultural, or in this case black, sensibilities? I think that system should be called racist whether it's malicious or not.

Basically, I think if you have party using a theme from X-race based on characteristics of X race or culture, you're using these characteristics because they are easy identifiers from what differentiates them from you. And that makes your presentation of them a caricature. This is the definition of prejudice and stereotype, isn' t it?

Honestly, I feel you. I understand what you're asking. And I wonder the same. So I don't have an answer for you. I don't know where to draw the line. Like I said, I participate. I wore a friggin taco costume at said roommate's graduation in front of her Mexican family. I have no idea if that's okay in the greater scheme of things! I only know what I believe and that it's important to be open to the idea that no matter how hard I try to not do harm, I may not always be in the right.

I feel you too. I'll try and keep a more open mind about what makes something a caricature and how that can be avoidable. I have three Mexican American roommates so they've always got something to teach about Mexican culture. It's weird when I know that they'd probably be pretty okay with something goofy like this but many don't take to is as well still. Just gotta keep an open mind.
 
..
south-park-s15e09c01-texans-vs-mexicans-16x9.jpg
 
I don't think it's racist in the narrow sense of the word. It's a clumsy appropriation and it's dumb and culturally insensitive. And to top that it's a really lame party theme.
 
Racism is caused by ignorance is a true statement, but it's a different premise than ignorance is caused by racism. So it's not an intuitive way to word it. It's saying something different. It goes in both directions, not just one.

Alright. To my own defense , however, I'll say that I never did state that it can't go both ways, since things that are not intuitive happen to be true often enough, like say, special relativity or bicycles.
 
I am trying to wrap my head around the thought that the OP was at this party, and instead of interacting with people there and enjoying himself, he felt the need to make a GAF thread and poll to see if it might be racist. Like, as if he needs GAF approval to be at the party or something.

Maybe the OP felt bad in the larger context of how the whole of Latin America has been catastrophically wrecked by the USA throughout history and into the current age. I don't blame him for having a conscience.
 
US optics? What do you mean by that?

I suppose - as a foreigner - that I see that racism is a tough point to tackle in the United States, considering it is still a big problem when pondering at multiple examples in the form of those police brutality and political disenfranchisement cases that are reported quite frequently from the country, and may spark stronger reactions.

Especially when looking from here, where I think that racism - if a big, but quite ignored problem - pales in comparison to the pervasivity of classism in Mexican culture.
 
I don't know if I would call it racist exactly, because I feel like that 100% implies an intent of causing damage based on race.

I'd say it's more poorly thought out maybe, but at the same time I dunno man, like some mexican restaurants are basically an eternal mexican themed party you know?

Got a shit ton of caricatures going on there all the time.
 
Look, if we want to have any kind of cultural mixing we need to relax and not get so damn uptight about superficial elements of our heritages. When you start trying to micromanage every detail of what is or isn't okay to wear or some other frivolous thing out of fear of racism, then you have allowed racism to control you. At some level, we all need to be able to look at our own cultures and laugh at them, and know what kind of representation is or isn't insulting to us - and generally, the more secure you are with yourself and your heritage, the less likely you are to take offense to someone wearing a poncho at a silly party or using chopsticks. This is not equivalent at all to blackface-esque mockery.
 
I don't know if I would call it racist exactly, because I feel like that 100% implies an intent of causing damage based on race.

I'd say it's more poorly thought out maybe, but at the same time I dunno man, like some mexican restaurants are basically an eternal mexican themed party you know?

Got a shit ton of caricatures going on there all the time.


I think we're on the same page just wanted to point out that racism doesn't need intent, let alone intent to cause damage imo.
 
I suppose - as a foreigner - that I see that racism is a tough point to tackle in the United States, considering it is still a big problem when pondering at multiple examples in the form of those police brutality and political disenfranchisement cases that are reported quite frequently from the country, and may spark stronger reactions.

Especially when looking from here, where I think that racism - if a big, but quite ignored problem - pales in comparison to the pervasivity of classism in Mexican culture.

That classicism is sustained today in large part by US intervention though. It's a problem in most of Latin America. People who once thought themselves above others were once used and thrown under the bus by "pure" Europeans. Now the US has taken the opportunity to prop them up to maintain dominion over entire economies.
 
I'll defer to my Mexican brethren for this as I'd say it's more up to them than me. We have different backgrounds, different histories, so we're likely to have different feelings on the subject.

I like this post.

I'm Mexican, I'm actually flattered. It's great that other cultures are celebrating in something my country produced. Enjoy our food, customs, our beautiful traditional clothes etc. Didn't even register as racist, unless you are doing a disservice and using tabasco sauce or something evil like that.

Now for a Mexican song!
Let's party!
 
Theme parties are lame.

But if they were all dressed as historical and political figures of Mexico, watching documentaries about Mexican art and film, and were eating imported, authentic foods whilst arguing over the significance of the Aztec way of life in a post-modern context you'd be calling it Hipster.
 
I mean, yeah, if all you know of them is sombreros and American ideas of what Mexican food is.

No it is not racist. Actually when one group of people make a theme party about another culture and there is no malicious intent, ie. mocking said culture, then it should be considered a compliment in this case to Mexican culture. Especially since they like Mexican culture so much as to celebrate it and want to enjoy it. Dressing up in a poncho and a sombrero at this Mexican themed party is not racist.
 
I work with a bunch of Mexicanos and they wouldn't give dos chingalas if some gringos mocked thier cultural heritage at a party. Most likely, they'd show up en masse to laugh at you and have a good time.
 
I voted no, for something to be racist there must be an ill or demeaning motivation. It's a party, people are there to have a good time. Play on stereotypes could be chalked up under bad form, but hey.
 
Were Romanians ever lynched, had their lands stolen, betrayed, subjugated, and had their history washed away?

Really? You're gonna go there? Over a Mexican theme party? We've had horrible shit done to us (though the "land stolen" is super debatable - that was just incompetency on our part), but what does it have to do with a party? Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.


Mexican here. Yes, it's racist.

I'm also Mexican, and there are more of us that think it isn't than there are of you that think it is Almost 2:1. It's a silly party that at the veeeeery most was a little bit culturally insensitive, but that's where it ends. Were they dressing up as farmer worker, or a janitor? What's that? Oh, they weren't? Then they're fine. We have enough of our issues with racism against our very own people to be worrying about some party where they have piñatas, sombreros, sarapes and fake mustaches.
 
Were Romanians ever lynched, had their lands stolen, betrayed, subjugated, and had their history washed away?.

Yea, in one form or another.
Hell, Moldova was Romanian territory until the Soviet Union.
The Ottoman Empire ransacked the entire region after countless wars and battles.
 
Yea, in one form or another.
Hell, Moldova was Romanian territory until the Soviet Union.
The Ottoman Empire ransacked the entire region after countless wars and battles.

It's amusing when people essentially ask 'Has a country in the Balkans been fucked over repeatedly in almost every way'.

The answer is yes.
 
I really can't with internet these days...

To me, being racist is demeaning someone based on their skin color or culture.
They are dressed in traditional Mexican clothes and they are just having fun. Good for them. I fail to see how that can be racist.


I'm Mexican, I'm actually flattered. It's great that other cultures are celebrating in something my country produced. Enjoy our food, customs, our beautiful traditional clothes etc. Didn't even register as racist, unless you are doing a disservice and using tabasco sauce or something evil like that.

Now for a Mexican song!
Let's party!

This is a good way of looking at things.


It's amusing when people essentially ask 'Has a country in the Balkans been fucked over repeatedly in almost every way'.

The answer is yes.

Yup
 
No more than a german themed party with lederhosen and beer.

If anything, it would be insensitive to wear face paint.

FWIW I've been to an American themed party too. Hillbillies and cowboys, bankers, fake firearms etc.
 
Maybe the OP felt bad in the larger context of how the whole of Latin America has been catastrophically wrecked by the USA throughout history and into the current age. I don't blame him for having a conscience.

um

think you mean Spain?

not that USA is off the hook of course but Spain is your culprit through history
 
Really? You're gonna go there? Over a Mexican theme party? We've had horrible shit done to us (though the "land stolen" is super debatable - that was just incompetency on our part), but what does it have to do with a party? Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

Land stolen isn't debatable at all. I'm not talking about formerly Mexican territory handed o ear to the US. Ask the Californios and Texanos who had their cattle and property stollen. Some of them lynched.

Stop telling me how to feel about it.

I'm also Mexican, and there are more of us that think it isn't than there are of you that think it is Almost 2:1. It's a silly party that at the veeeeery most was a little bit culturally insensitive, but that's where it ends. Were they dressing up as farmer worker, or a janitor? What's that? Oh, they weren't? Then they're fine. We have enough of our issues with racism against our very own people to be worrying about some party where they have piñatas, sombreros, sarapes and fake mustaches.

Appeal to popularity is a fallacy. So the 2:1 ratio you bring up is meaningless. The way I see it the US is culpable for a lot more than you give it credit for. Drug wars, economic rigging, political subversion, and I've already mentioned how the classicism is propped up by the US. Somwhen I see a bunch of red blooded Americans parodying Hispanics in some form, it makes me sick.

um

think you mean Spain?

not that USA is off the hook of course but Spain is your culprit through history

You mean the other gringos? Spain isnt resposibble for much after the revolution. That still leaves plenty of history between Mexico and the US. They aren't directly responsible for the woes in the current state of things either.
 
Yea, in one form or another.
Hell, Moldova was Romanian territory until the Soviet Union.
The Ottoman Empire ransacked the entire region after countless wars and battles.

Do the Ottomans remain in a position of power today that lord over Romanian government and economy?
Rhetorical question

How about the Russians today then?
 
I think it's racist in that it helps perpetuate ignorant ideas, it may not be intended to be harmful, but ignorance of the fact it might be is no excuse.
 
A real Mexican party would be eating some bomb Carne Asada, some beans and killer guac, and just finish up your night with some R&R outside and you're good to go.
 
Do the Ottomans remain in a position of power today that lord over Romanian government and economy?
Rhetorical question

How about the Russians today then?

Not as much anymore(after Soviet occupation, a full blown Dictatorship by Ceaușescu, decades of treaties, issues with Treasury, Moldavia etc).
Currently Ukraine is the one getting most of the Russian heat, and that indirectly affects everyone in the black sea.
It's been like a month that Russia threatened they will take action if Romania allows NATO movements there.
That is not even accounting how most of the Balkans are treated as the ''second class europe countries' by many in Europe and discriminated heavily.

Not that your line of reasoning and trying to compare woes had any substance in the first place, but I think they hit the quota.
 
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