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[Cheerilee]

Note: I won't dispute that a heavy turbolaser shot from a Star Destroyer could probably one-shot a Star Trek capital ship if the shields were down, but there's no way a TIE or X-Wing could even come close.

I think you just don't like the idea of a personal-sized craft taking out a warship, but the Star Trek world is advancing in a way that keeps rapidly turning their ships into obsolete scrap and their goalposts into jokes. When the Defiant from the original series appeared in ST: Enterprise, it owned the fuck out of everything. Yet the Delta Flyer could probably one-shot that old garbage scow. TNG thought similar "capital ships" were only good for boring target practice. If you de-power Tie Fighters and Star Destroyers and Death Stars arbitrarily until Trek's Next Gen-era military has a shot at taking them in a fight, then the Enterprise 20's and Delta Flyer IX's and infinitely-spawning Voyager 12 shuttlecraft of the Future Trek world would all simply be one-shotting Super Star Destroyers.

Trek has a future. How many of Trek's gods have told the humans "Come back in a million years or so, and maybe you'll be gods too by then and maybe I won't be embarrassed to hang out with you." Trek's future is probably more power-filled than Star Wars, since it approaches god-levels. Future Trek's starship power sources probably involve two Wesley Crusher clones standing in a room screaming at each other for a few hours. But any "present" shown in Trek is vastly behind Star Wars.

If the Empire are so godlike, why is the Star Wars universe so run-down and crappy? It's quite clear that Lucas doesn't intend them to be some sort of hypercivilisation like the Culture or something, they're basically just Space Nazis. Why are you all sticking up for Space Nazis? You MONSTERS.

Star Wars was advanced to the point where if Luke needs to cross half the galaxy like Voyager, he can say "Oh really? I guess I'll take a nap then. Wake me in a few hours." This technology and knowledge is everywhere, and, with enough effort, a somewhat-intelligent but not specially educated bum like Han Solo can improvise any rusting old wreck into the beauty that is the Millennium Falcon (Worf, by comparison, can improvise a communicator badge into a personal shield capable of stopping bullets). The Space Nazis also had this level of power, and built an army capable of suppressing it.

The Star Wars world is bigger because the galaxy in Star Wars is just a backdrop, not something to be struggled against. The Space Nazis are there to be struggled against.

Star Trek has never reduced the galaxy to a walk in the park, nor have they ever given anyone complete military dominance. They would have to fill both bills to match Star Wars, and they never will, because nobody wants them to do it. They came close with the Borg, but then they changed their minds, neutered them, and moved on.

 

[Manmademan]

We do at least have a reasonable explanation of why Warp 10 was supposed to be unattainable, despite the absurd results of achieving it given by the Voyager writers. If I remember correctly, warp speeds are supposed to be on a curve approaching infinity, with Warp 10 resulting in the occupation of all points in the universe simultaneously. The 9.9, 9.99, 9.999, 9.99999..... was just moving further and further up the curve.

except they went faster than warp 10 in the final episode of TNG?

The limit of 10 did not entirely stop warp inflation. By the mid-24th century, the Enterprise-D could travel at warp 9.8 at "extreme risk", while normal maximum operating velocity was warp 9.6 and maximum rated cruise was warp 9.2. The Intrepid-class starship Voyager has a maximum sustainable cruising velocity of warp 9.975, the Enterprise-E can go even faster at Warp 9.985. In the alternative future depicted in "All Good Things..." (the final episode of the Star Trek:TNG), Federation starships travel at warp 13.

no, I don't think this was ever actually explained.

 

[DrForester]

Well they could have been using a new scale by all good things times. Have to figure with Voyager coming back they'd have ample information on Transwarp technology (something the Federation had been working on since TOS movie days) or Slipstream technology, which even Voyager was able to use temporarily, to develop new travel technology. There were also other tech that could just go anywhere almost instantly. Super Barclay, was able to get the ship across a vast number of Galaxies in an almost instant amount of time, as was The Traveler and The Caretaker. And they used technology to do it not magical powers (other than super brains).

 

[DrForester]

Question for Star Wars fans. With SW tech able to cross the galaxy in a fairly short amount of time have they/do they explore/settle in other Galaxies?

 

[DarthWoo]

As far as I know, they never did. The only attempt to explore outside of the galaxy was

Spoiler

The Outbound Flight, a craft sent to leave the galaxy with a crew of Jedi Masters and Knights, but it was secretly destroyed by Thrawn under Palpatine's orders. Had it not been destroyed, it probably would have run straight into the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Question for Star Wars fans. With SW tech able to cross the galaxy in a fairly short amount of time have they/do they explore/settle in other Galaxies?

Theres so much unknown space between galaxies that contains nothing that no one has ever tried. Hyperdrives work using known hyperspace lanes of which outside the SW galaxy have not been charted. On the edges of the galaxy you have the outer rim territories and wildspace which in themselves have many areas that are not all that well explored yet or are considered dangerous territories for one reason or another.

The Yuuzhan Vong were aliens that came from another Galaxy and invaded the GFFA during the NJO era of Star Wars. They used giant worldships that were bigger than any of the known star war ships shown so far, which were giant organic worlds, and they lived in these habitats as they crossed the "great dark" to reach the GFFA. The journey took many years though.

 

[Guardian Bob]

I like to think that Vader would be seduced, or even assimilated, by the borg queen. He becomes a Locutis figure, and the Empire is split in two. Then we have a 3-way.

 

[Vanillalite]

There is this dumb collection of nerd short stories called... Geektastic: Stories from the Nerd Herd

Supposedly the idea was conceived by the two editors at Comic Con a few years ago thinking about what would happen if a Jedi and a Klingon ever got together. They knew they'd never be able to make that into a big story and get it published, but it morphed into a book of short stories.

The 1st story is about a dude who cosplays and lives as a Jedi and a chick who cosplays and tries to live as Klingon hooking up at a con. I figure that is perfect for this thread! :lol :lol

 

[Cheerilee]

Theres so much unknown space between galaxies that contains nothing that no one has ever tried. Hyperdrives work using known hyperspace lanes of which outside the SW galaxy have not been charted. On the edges of the galaxy you have the outer rim territories and wildspace which in themselves have many areas that are not all that well explored yet or are considered dangerous territories for one reason or another.

IIRC, most skilled Jedi have the ability to travel at hyperdrive speeds without maps and probably not die, because in outer space with no distractions, they can extend their Force sensitivity and feel planets or other matter in the distance and fly by the seat of their pants.

Otherwise you pretty much need a computer navigator, like R2D2, who was an "astromech droid", which was why all the X-wing fighters had a slot for one. The Millennium Falcon had a built-in computer which R2 and C3PO could talk to.

Luke flew to Dagobah on manual controls instead of letting R2 fly the ship. Charting safe and simple hyperspace lanes when the existing ones were insufficient was probably one of the duties of the old-world Jedi.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I'd forgotten how hilarious that Stardestroyer.net site is.:lol

Again, the point I'm trying to make about the 'Godlike Empire' is if energy was so readily available as the 'Doctor of Physics' claims, why would you bother having wars of conquest? Everyone could just sit around and do what they like, it would be Utopia.
Now most SF gets this wrong of course, but claiming the Death Star produces in a single blast as much power as the Sun does in 2000 years is clearly ridiculous.

It's clear Lucas doesn't intend the Empire to be Gods, and indeed that site has an article on why you should pay attention to the creator's original vision rather than get hung up on the minutiae of SFX shots that were just filmed to look cool.

 

[Cheerilee]

I'd forgotten how hilarious that Stardestroyer.net site is.:lol

Again, the point I'm trying to make about the 'Godlike Empire' is if energy was so readily available as the 'Doctor of Physics' claims, why would you bother having wars of conquest? Everyone could just sit around and do what they like, it would be Utopia.
Now most SF gets this wrong of course, but claiming the Death Star produces in a single blast as much power as the Sun does in 2000 years is clearly ridiculous.

Religion and paranoia. An entire galaxy with an ultra-dense capital city the size of an entire planet had no problem handing it's leader a military force so powerful it could oppress the population of said galaxy, because they didn't know he was a crazy mofo practicing a banned religion.

And that still wasn't enough for the Emperor. He wanted one single superweapon under his direct control which he could use to fight off his own entire superarmy, because he was sure that they'd all turn against him once he started showing his REALLY crazy side. His walking around in hooded pajamas and letting his amputee burn-victim assistant Force-choke hookers was still him trying to look presentable.

When Starfleet can totally fuck up the Milky Way galaxy six ways from sunday, then it can claim the biggest army crown (against Star Wars, not in general, because others have obviously written bigger), but it's simply not there yet. All things being equal, the wholesome Starfleet will likely never exceed the military density of the Empire in one single galaxy (it usually takes Nazis to do something that evil), but could exceed the Empire's military might overall sometime after they go intergalactic.

It's clear Lucas doesn't intend the Empire to be Gods, and indeed that site has an article on why you should pay attention to the creator's original vision rather than get hung up on the minutiae of SFX shots that were just filmed to look cool.

Trek is closer to godhood than Wars. Trek's gods have to be specifically disallowed to make a pure military comparison. Wesley Crusher is practically a god himself. Star Wars is simply much, much more advanced. Star Wars reached that level and then levelled off. Star Trek is at an early stage of growth to the same end, except that humans in Trek are probably going to advance beyond humanity long before that happens, while Star Wars kept every dirty little bit of it.

Star Trek itself has said repeatedly that the TNG era is not the be-all end-all human technological achievement in terms of weapons, shields, and speed. Nor will be whatever comes next.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

The Star Trek Technical Manuals posit figures that are not compatible with on-screen statements or examples. I'd like to point out that the Federation has photon and quantum torpedoes by the literal boat load. They likely also have a stock of Transphasic torpedoes, which have been shown to ignore shields altogether. photon torpedoes of a 54 isoton yield could "blow up a small planet" (to quote Harry Kim) and 200 isotons is the explosive yield of a photon torpedo with a class-6 warhead. The Federation also has access to the plans, given the time-frame in the OP, to build a multi-kinetic neutronic mine, a weapon with a 5 million isoton yield that could affect an entire star system. The shock wave of which has a dispersive force radius of 5 light years.
Regarding Shield strength, I'm willing to bet Metaphasic shielding has become standard for Federation craft post-Voyager era. This type of shield technology is capable of withstanding the pressure, radiation, and energy found in a star's corona. I haven't been able to find a statement on the power output of a SW Turbolaser, but I somehow doubt it's above that found in a sun's corona, even in a mass firing that a Deathstar or Super Star Destroyer is able to throw out. Given that the OP suggests that it is Episode IV: A New Hope era SW we use for comparison, the greatest energy weapon ever created by this Empire is the Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser found on the Deathstar I, a formidable weapon powerful enough to destroy a terrestrial planet, but unable to attack non-planets and capital ship targets and requiring at least 24 hours to recharge, and one has to consider the actual power wielded by a Turbolaser. As I already pointed out, a photon torpedo with a class-6 warhead conceivably has much more power behind it and could be resisted by a ST shield.
Turbolasers are also slow weapons, requiring a warm-up/cool-down process and are mounted in generally slow moving turrets (which was why Darth vader had to resort to scrambling TIE-Fighters after the rebels fighters in the attack on the Deathstar), likewise, at the speeds required for ship-to-ship combat, the Star Destroyer variations have been shown to move slowly in comparison to ST ships. Indeed, ST ships can even make use of Warp speeds in such situations (Picard Maneuver).

That's not even taking into consideration the superior targeting computers of ST ships in comparison to their SW counterparts.

Long post short:

- Deathstar I had holes in it's shield large enough to fly an Y-Wing through. It falls to a Transporter delivered Antimatter device in any scenario conceivable.
- Super Star Destroyers vs. Transphasic torpedoes= dead Super Star Destroyers in one shot. Two at most.
- Multi-Kinetic Neutronic Mine > Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser. Smaller too.
- Post-Voyager ST Wins out over post-New Hope SW. No contest.

 

[i_am_ben]

this thread is both amazing and scary :lol

 

[BattleMonkey]

IIRC, most skilled Jedi have the ability to travel at hyperdrive speeds without maps and probably not die, because in outer space with no distractions, they can extend their Force sensitivity and feel planets or other matter in the distance and fly by the seat of their pants.

Otherwise you pretty much need a computer navigator, like R2D2, who was an "astromech droid", which was why all the X-wing fighters had a slot for one. The Millennium Falcon had a built-in computer which R2 and C3PO could talk to.

Luke flew to Dagobah on manual controls instead of letting R2 fly the ship. Charting safe and simple hyperspace lanes when the existing ones were insufficient was probably one of the duties of the old-world Jedi.

No, only a few Jedi have shown an affinity towards astrogation, like only some have real healing talent to heal others, yet most can heal themselves through healing trances over time. Force sensing another planet or system is not a simple feet, only the strongest of Jedi would likely be capable of such things. Such long distance feelings are usually connected to massive disturbances within the force or some form of disturbance to someone whose force signature is very close and known to someone like a lover or family member.

All travel requires a nav computer through hyperspace, calculating manually even requires the use of a nav computer. R2 units and such are just used for quicker calculations as hyperspace is constantly in flux and slight corrections have to be made with the assitance with nav data from the computers.

Most charting of hyperspace lanes were done by Scouts, a popular adventurers professional in the Old Republic where explorers would search and plot for new hyperspace routes to sell to corporations, worlds, or the republic to be added to the beacon network that was required in the old days. Beacons become useless in the modern SW era as the nav computers were able to handle all the data and be kept up to date regularly on lane data.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

The Star Trek Technical Manuals posit figures that are not compatible with on-screen statements or examples. I'd like to point out that the Federation has photon and quantum torpedoes by the literal boat load.

Cite examples please.

The torpedo bombardment of the fake founder homeworld in "The Die is Cast" (with no planetary ejecta), the measurable explosion of the unshielded bird-of-prey in "Generations" and contaminated Federation ship in TNG, and numerous other examples, seem to correlate very well with the tech values.

It doesn't matter if they have loads, they simply have loads of a weak weapon.

They likely also have a stock of Transphasic torpedoes, which have been shown to ignore shields altogether.

No, they've been shown to ignore Borg shields. Imperial shields are, by all measurements, thousands of thousands of times more stronger (see the effortless absorbtion of an asteroid in Empire Strikes Back).

photon torpedoes of a 54 isoton yield could "blow up a small planet" (to quote Harry Kim) and 200 isotons is the explosive yield of a photon torpedo with a class-6 warhead.

Not sure what episode the quote is from but observable feats > character exaggerating. Harry's talking out of his arse. We've seen the impact of Photon Torpedoes on a planet ("The Die is Cast" again) or even on a base built onto a small asteroid (DS9 A Time to Stand), the latter of which destoyed the base but caused NO DAMAGE to the asteroid itself.

The only planet killing weapons the Federation has access to are Red Matter and the Genesis Device.

The Federation also has access to the plans, given the time-frame in the OP, to build a multi-kinetic neutronic mine, a weapon with a 5 million isoton yield that could affect an entire star system. The shock wave of which has a dispersive force radius of 5 light years.

Note the word "effect". We are not told what this does exactly, considering its primary purpose was distribution of nanoprobes, it may simple expel them in every direction. Assumption does not equal an argument.

Shockwave means nothing. The Praxis shockwave spread into Federation space, but a single starship could survive it with ease.

We see this non-existent weapon conceptually in a diagram for only a few moments. This is not a real thing.

Regarding Shield strength, I'm willing to bet Metaphasic shielding has become standard for Federation craft post-Voyager era. This type of shield technology is capable of withstanding the pressure, radiation, and energy found in a star's corona. I haven't been able to find a statement on the power output of a SW Turbolaser, but I somehow doubt it's above that found in a sun's corona, even in a mass firing that a Deathstar or Super Star Destroyer is able to throw out.

(1) The technology was limited in runtime in Descent Part 2, and the idea that its been massproduced is pure speculation.

(2) The shielding deflected heat. It does not, and has never shown to increase a ships resistance to weapons.

(3) Concentrated blast of a turbolaser will be a tremendous amount of energy focussed into a single piercing point. The energy measurements given as canon for turbolaser bolts may or may not be as strong as a corona's heat, but the metaphasic shielding was designed to disperse heat around the ship, not defend from concentrated battery fire in one location, from a gun with more power than anything ever seen in the Federation.

(4) The measurements of the Death Star Superlaster caused instant near-lightspeed-ejection of all matter and breached a planetary SW-strength shield in microseconds. Last calculations say that the energy needed to produce this reaction (based on measurements of the energy needed to produce this frame-by-frame explosion) are more than all the energy our sun has generated for the last 2000 years combined.

The idea that a corona is more heat and energy than a Death Star superlaser is an impossibility, and if you'd done the maths you would see this.

Given that the OP suggests that it is Episode IV: A New Hope era SW we use for comparison, the greatest energy weapon ever created by this Empire is the Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser found on the Deathstar I, a formidable weapon powerful enough to destroy a terrestrial planet, but unable to attack non-planets and capital ship targets and requiring at least 24 hours to recharge, and one has to consider the actual power wielded by a Turbolaser. As I already pointed out, a photon torpedo with a class-6 warhead conceivably has much more power behind it and could be resisted by a ST shield.

You have pointed out nothing, no examples, no scenes, no measuremuents, nothing at all. ALL CANON evidence, ALL MEASUREMENTS say that SW shields and SW weapons are tens-of-thousands times more capable than their ST counterparts.

Yes, the DS superlaser needs a recharge time. But its not going to be the primary weapon in this battle. The Death Stars hundred-of-thousands of TIE fighters (which as established in the thread, have energy levels that will one-shot EVERY Federation ship), the dozens of docked Star Destroyers (which will just massacre the fleet in front of them) will finish the Federation fleet for good.

Turbolasers are also slow weapons, requiring a warm-up/cool-down process and are mounted in generally slow moving turrets (which was why Darth vader had to resort to scrambling TIE-Fighters after the rebels fighters in the attack on the Deathstar), likewise, at the speeds required for ship-to-ship combat, the Star Destroyer variations have been shown to move slowly in comparison to ST ships. Indeed, ST ships can even make use of Warp speeds in such situations (Picard Maneuver).

Turbolasers are not slow weapons (The entire Clone Wars confirms this, as much as I hate to refer to the loathesome prequels), they just had difficulty with close-flying ships that breached part of their shield due to their comparable techology levels. Episode 2 and 3 completely destroy your baseless assumptions of "warm-up/cool-down" and "slow".

The Millenium Falcon keeps eluding them because its a fast fast ship, because the heroes are in it, but most of all because Vader wants them alive.

That's not even taking into consideration the superior targeting computers of ST ships in comparison to their SW counterparts.

Evidence? At all?

Long post short:

- Deathstar I had holes in it's shield large enough to fly an Y-Wing through. It falls to a Transporter delivered Antimatter device in any scenario conceivable.

The shield didn't have holes, the rebels simply flew through it (they even say this in the dialogue!). As the ships are of a comparable tech/industrial base, they can do this.

The shield is up, it is always up. The transporter bomb will (1) not work; and (2) the feds have no access to the schematics and this weakness regardless.

Super Star Destroyers vs. Transphasic torpedoes= dead Super Star Destroyers in one shot. Two at most.

Get some evidence for this or stop saying it. SW shields >>>>>>>>> Borg Shields.

Multi-Kinetic Neutronic Mine > Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser. Smaller too.

Already destroyed this point above. You're citing a non-specific tool that never got built designed for nanoprobe distribution by a technologically inferior civilation as equal to a weapon whose measureable energy values are beyond every race in ST put together. No, just no.

Post-Voyager ST Wins out over post-New Hope SW. No contest.

You can't win a war on assumptions, non-existent non-specific weapons, numbers that don't add up, a character providing exaggerated dialogue that contradicts all evidence in the show, and generally just ignoring the numbers.

 

[msv]

Not sure what episode the quote is from but observable feats > character exaggerating. Harry's talking out of his arse. We've seen the impact of Photon Torpedoes on a planet ("The Die is Cast" again) or even on a base built onto a small asteroid (DS9 A Time to Stand), the latter of which destoyed the base but caused NO DAMAGE to the asteroid itself.

Observable feats... So okay, this topic way too ridiculous for my taste, but this just doesn't make any sense. Instead of acknowledging the writing you'd rather extrapolate from minor FX, as if they were recorded fact. Damn hokey business in here.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Observable feats... So okay, this topic way too ridiculous for my taste, but this just doesn't make any sense. Instead of acknowledging the writing you'd rather extrapolate from minor FX, as if they were recorded fact. Damn hokey business in here.

First of all I'd like to know what the context was for Harry Kim's quote because I don't recall it.

Second of all, we have hundreds of examples of photon torpedoes hitting things, none of which caused even a minute proportion of amount of the energy needed to destroy a planet.

If federation photon torpedoes had this power, then the entire Domnion War makes no sense, because not during a single incident in seven years is this power level demonstrated in battle, or in the numerous instances a torpedo hits the planet.

Its not ignoring the writing. Harry is exaggerating or lying because the entire history and canon of the show proves what he is saying is simply not the case.

I want to see the context of this quote.

 

[DrForester]

If Robotniks defending SW over Trek it's over. Though I think Trek has plenty of wilds cards we haven't even looked at to put up a good fight.

Though I would throw out the argument that powerful or not we don't really know how SW shields would react to ST Transporters as (again assumption, but based on observation) I've always assumed that in ST shields are made not only to protect the ship but also specifically to divert/block Transporter beams. We see beaming through shields several times in the show if given time to figure out "harmonic frequency" and all that stuff. The Empires shields powerful as they are against physical attack may have zero effect on dispersing a transporter beam as their shields were not intended to combat that type of technology.



And to throw out one of those wild cards....


What if a few of these found their way onto a Star Destroyer or Death Star?

 

[Mama Robotnik]

If Robotniks defending SW over Trek it's over. Though I think Trek has plenty of wilds cards we haven't even looked at to put up a good fight.

Still a load of exotic techonologies and ideas to exploit.

I like the idea, for example, of a suicide run into the wormhole of ships with Red Matter onboard. If a supermassive blackhole can be created at the immediate entry point of the Wormhole, nothing will be able to get through.

Or alternatively, surrender to a Star Destroyer, and secretly take on board the evil black ooze of Armus for shit and giggles.

Can also make a deal with the brain-parasites from "Conspiracy", or if you're feeling brave, offer the Pah'Wraiths freedom but only if they fly through the wormhole and terrorise that galaxy instead.

Though I would throw out the argument that powerful or not we don't really know how SW shields would react to ST Transporters as (again assumption, but based on observation) I've always assumed that in ST shields are made not only to protect the ship but also specifically to divert/block Transporter beams. We see beaming through shields several times in the show if given time to figure out "harmonic frequency" and all that stuff. The Empires shields powerful as they are against physical attack may have zero effect on dispersing a transporter beam as their shields were not intended to combat that type of technology.

Since in Trek, every single type of shield seems to block transporters, despite the different technology bases and fundementals, I'd strongly expect SW shields to also do this.

And to throw out one of those wild cards....


What if a few of these found their way onto a Star Destroyer or Death Star?

Now that's a damn ingenius strategy. You get a small number of these onto the Imperial agricultural worlds, and you'll collapse the entire economy as trillions of people starve to death.

Or eat the Tribbles.

 

[Enosh]

What if a few of these found their way onto a Star Destroyer or Death Star?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/_...les.jpg/800px-Kirk_surrounded_by_Tribbles.jpg

^_^

 

[Zenith]

Or eat the Tribbles.

Tribbles are 90% uterus.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

As the thread winds down, we've discovered the only winning strategy for the Feds is via tribbles.

^_^

Haha, but I think there are many who will become obsessive over their apparent harmlessness, as the crew of the Enterprise did.

Downfall by tribbles. Is that worse than downfall by ewoks?

Tribbles are 90% uterus.

So it will require some cooking and flavouring, then?

Or maybe they can become a new supply of milk. I mean, can you milk tribbles?

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Now most SF gets this wrong of course, but claiming the Death Star produces in a single blast as much power as the Sun does in 2000 years is clearly ridiculous.

Just wanted to go back to this statement.

Stardestroyer.net measured the speed of matter dispersal in Alderaan's destruction. They worked out the required energy, with open clear mathematics. The numbers equate to the Sun analogy.

There's a mathematical proof to this, with evidence.

You call it "clearly ridiculous" and offer nothing to counter it. Do you think counts as an argument in any form? How about you tell us (with working out please) the correct energy level needed to detonate an Earth-sized planet at the rate showed in the movie, and produce a figure not "clearly ridiculous".

Something being false because you want it to be false doesn't work.

 

[Escape Goat]

SW obviously works in different physics/reality because if the death star II had blown up in orbit, Han, Leia and all the little Ewoks would be celebrating in a fiery inferno.

 

[MadraptorMan]

Isn't a single lightning bolt here on Earth as hot or hotter than the sun? I think I've read that before...

 

[elrechazado]

SW obviously works in different physics/reality because if the death star II had blown up in orbit, Han, Leia and all the little Ewoks would be celebrating in a fiery inferno.

I pointed out earlier that star wars is simply a dream of an adolescent boy. If you live by the science from a few fx shots, you die by it, and SW clearly shows sound in the vacuum of space. This defies all real physics as we know it, so clearly SW is all someone's dream.

I win.

 

[Cheerilee]

I pointed out earlier that star wars is simply a dream of an adolescent boy. If you live by the science from a few fx shots, you die by it, and SW clearly shows sound in the vacuum of space. This defies all real physics as we know it, so clearly SW is all someone's dream.

I win.

I think the scientific term for it is suspension of disbelief. And theoretically, all entertainment requires it.

 

[DarthWoo]

Something that always confused me about the latter seasons of DS9 is why did it seem like everyone stopped raising their shields in the large fleet engagements? Every exterior combat scene seemed to show ships getting trashed upon the first hit of weapons-fire.

 

[Medalion]

Something that always confused me about the latter seasons of DS9 is why did it seem like everyone stopped raising their shields in the large fleet engagements? Every exterior combat scene seemed to show ships getting trashed upon the first hit of weapons-fire.

That's what I wondered as well. But it would be a long and drawn out battle if everybody had their shields up and that CG wasn't cheap and only so much time, gotta tell a story in those 40+ minutes.

 

[DrForester]

Something that always confused me about the latter seasons of DS9 is why did it seem like everyone stopped raising their shields in the large fleet engagements? Every exterior combat scene seemed to show ships getting trashed upon the first hit of weapons-fire.

So much fire shields were already down?

Spoiler

More expensive to see stuff explode off shields, same reason we see more hull explosions in Star Wars as well

 

[Escape Goat]

Something that always confused me about the latter seasons of DS9 is why did it seem like everyone stopped raising their shields in the large fleet engagements? Every exterior combat scene seemed to show ships getting trashed upon the first hit of weapons-fire.

probably to up the suspsense. "Oh no Captain! We took a hit but we're AOK! Keep firing!"

Its more suspenseful if you're like "Oh fuck. We just lost 12 more ships! Shit we're going dooown!"

Plus I think they were going for a while WW2 feel like Lucas did with Star Wars.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Something that always confused me about the latter seasons of DS9 is why did it seem like everyone stopped raising their shields in the large fleet engagements? Every exterior combat scene seemed to show ships getting trashed upon the first hit of weapons-fire.

Just like many aspects of Star Wars didn't make sense, or how battles in Babylon 5 took place at close range when even the creator said it was unrealistic. To make it more entertaining for the viewer, lot of realism has to be tossed out. Watching giant naval battles of ships floating around and shooting each other from many miles away from each other over a long period of time just isn't fun.

 

[Manmademan]

Since in Trek, every single type of shield seems to block transporters, despite the different technology bases and fundementals, I'd strongly expect SW shields to also do this.

except we already know that a form of transporter tech that ignores shields altogether DOES exist in TNG-era trek. The Federation simply chooses not to use it due to the long term side effects.

Given the explanation as to how it works (dimension shifting, and rapidly at that) I don't really give SW shielding any better odds of blocking it than Trek shields can.

 

[Clemsontigers35]

This thread was devised by a person who likes to see boffins examine things way too much:lol . Anyway, I guess its hard to decide. Star Trek and Star Wars both have advanced technology, so its tough on that front to decide. Trek has many menacing races, while Wars has humanity dominating, so I guess the Trek universe wins on that front. Romulans, Borg, Vulcans, Klingons and Humans all after the empire would be a tough fight for the plastic troops. However, Wars would always win, at least in Lucas's mind, due to the Force. Its a "get out of jail free" card for an author. How did Luke kill the entire Romulan fleet? He used the force. For that very boring reason, I say Wars wins.

 

[Manmademan]

This thread was devised by a person who likes to see boffins examine things way too much:lol . Anyway, I guess its hard to decide. Star Trek and Star Wars both have advanced technology, so its tough on that front to decide. Trek has many menacing races, while Wars has humanity dominating, so I guess the Trek universe wins on that front. Romulans, Borg, Vulcans, Klingons and Humans all after the empire would be a tough fight for the plastic troops. However, Wars would always win, at least in Lucas's mind, due to the Force. Its a "get out of jail free" card for an author. How did Luke kill the entire Romulan fleet? He used the force. For that very boring reason, I say Wars wins.

Didn't read the OP, I see. in this scenario the Rebellion has been wiped out. there IS no "luke" left. And if vader or the emperor were strong enough to wipe out entire fleets with just the force, there wouldn't have been an episode IV-VI, would there? :lol

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Plus I think they were going for a while WW2 feel like Lucas did with Star Wars.

Yeah, I think it was an intentional change to the battle style, and definitely inspired by Star Wars. The Defiant's swooping up and down, around ships and its quick, eratic flight seem definitely inspired by the Millenium Falcon.

Just like many aspects of Star Wars didn't make sense, or how battles in Babylon 5 took place at close range when even the creator said it was unrealistic. To make it more entertaining for the viewer, lot of realism has to be tossed out. Watching giant naval battles of ships floating around and shooting each other from many miles away from each other over a long period of time just isn't fun.

I think Battlestar pulled off battles at a distance in a way that was internally consistent, and tremondously entertaining. Its probably the only show I know of that does such long-distance battles well.

except we already know that a form of transporter tech that ignores shields altogether DOES exist in TNG-era trek. The Federation simply chooses not to use it due to the long term side effects.

Given the explanation as to how it works (dimension shifting, and rapidly at that) I don't really give SW shielding any better odds of blocking it than Trek shields can.

Okay, that's a start. Can you turn it into a winning strategy? Can the ten-thousand or so federation starships use it against a million Star Destroyers (assuming the Wars galaxy gears up for total war)?

Even if the strategy had an amount of success (and I don't think they could weaponise it in time regardless) as soon as The Empire finds out what they are doing, they can use one of their Death Stars and destroy the Earth, cutting off the head of Federation leadership.

Also, was the long-distance transporter used on moving ships or static ones?

This thread was devised by a person who likes to see boffins examine things way too much:lol . Anyway, I guess its hard to decide. Star Trek and Star Wars both have advanced technology, so its tough on that front to decide.

No. Star Wars has advanced weapons, speed, shields, durability, ships, manpower, training, medical technonolgy, AIs, resources, industrial base and two powerful Force users.

Trek has a small number of isolated non-combat technologies (replicators, transporters, holograms, cloaking devines) that the Imperials do not.

The Empire is a more advanced, older, experienced, war-trained and unified (enslaved) society.

Trek has many menacing races, while Wars has humanity dominating, so I guess the Trek universe wins on that front. Romulans, Borg, Vulcans, Klingons and Humans all after the empire would be a tough fight for the plastic troops.

As established in the thread, mere TIE Fighters can one-shot all of these ships. Its not even going to get to the point where troops need to be involved in combat.

Even if it did, in a total-war scenario, it is easily within Palpatine's power to reopen the war droid factories and order new batches of clones.

However, Wars would always win, at least in Lucas's mind, due to the Force. Its a "get out of jail free" card for an author. How did Luke kill the entire Romulan fleet? He used the force. For that very boring reason, I say Wars wins.

Luke's dead in the OP. We have two force users, and I would assume neither would enter the ST Galaxy unless the situation needed them. Given that all ST forces will lose every direct battle, I don't think it will happen until the galaxy has been fully pacified.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

Just wanted to go back to this statement.

Stardestroyer.net measured the speed of matter dispersal in Alderaan's destruction. They worked out the required energy, with open clear mathematics. The numbers equate to the Sun analogy.

There's a mathematical proof to this, with evidence.

You call it "clearly ridiculous" and offer nothing to counter it. Do you think counts as an argument in any form? How about you tell us (with working out please) the correct energy level needed to detonate an Earth-sized planet at the rate showed in the movie, and produce a figure not "clearly ridiculous".

Something being false because you want it to be false doesn't work.

I don't 'want' anything here :lol

It's ridiculous because it requires the Death Star to have a power source so far beyond the laws of physics as to be in the realm of pure magic. There is no non-ridiculous figure for instantaneous planet-destroying, and there never will be.

If the Empire had access to this much energy, they could pretty much do anything. Why bother sending walkers down to Hoth? Why not just evaporate the planet's atmosphere, or just hurl it into the sun? You could do both with a fraction of the energy the Death Star requires.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't 'want' anything here :lol

It's ridiculous because it requires the Death Star to have a power source so far beyond the laws of physics as to be in the realm of pure magic. There is no non-ridiculous figure for instantaneous planet-destroying, and there never will be.

If the Empire had access to this much energy, they could pretty much do anything. Why bother sending walkers down to Hoth? Why not just evaporate the planet's atmosphere, or just hurl it into the sun? You could do both with a fraction of the energy the Death Star requires.

in summary: "Star Wars OP".

Yes, they are. u mad?

 

[Dr Zhivago]

in summary: "Star Wars OP".

Yes, they are. u mad?

?

 

[Escape Goat]

Yeah, I think it was an intentional change to the battle style, and definitely inspired by Star Wars. The Defiant's swooping up and down, around ships and its quick, eratic flight seem definitely inspired by the Millenium Falcon.

Dogfighting was not invented by SW

 

[Chris R]

Luke's dead in the OP. We have two force users, and I would assume neither would enter the ST Galaxy unless the situation needed them. Given that all ST forces will lose every direct battle, I don't think it will happen until the galaxy has been fully pacified.

Not to get all nitpicky and what not, but Yoda would still be alive (even if only for a short time). Then you also have to think that both the Emperor and Darth Vader have apprentices (just how the Sith work).

I still think the biggest issue here would be travel. SW ships only travel in clearly defined routes, so unless they can capture a ST ship and steal all the important data to create new routes in our galaxy they would be boned for a period of time (might be enough for ST to build up a stronger army, but most likely not).

 

[Zen]

Did you make this thread to grind an ax? :lol

 

[Clemsontigers35]

Ok, I went back and read the OP, and in this scenario, I don't see the Empire winning. Way too much space to cover, too much resistance. They would have to contend with the Federation, with all of Voyager's tech, the Klingons, Romulans+Cardassians and Vulcans, in an all out slugfest. Keeping in mind that most of the Tie fighters would be pulverized since they have weak shields, and that most Star destroyers don't fire turbolasers with the precision and accuracy of a phazer on a star trek ship. Then they have to worry about the borg, assimilating a few star destroyers, adapting to all of their weapons, which would potentially render the Death Star useless. Plus, red matter could easily wipe out fleets. And Data is cooler than C-3PO.

 

[Cheerilee]

Star Wars has advanced weapons, speed, shields, durability, ships, manpower, training, medical technonolgy, AIs, resources, industrial base and two powerful Force users.

Trek has a small number of isolated non-combat technologies (replicators, transporters, holograms, cloaking devines) that the Imperials do not.

Trek's main advantage over the Empire (a few interesting technologies) might not even be an advantage.

Cloaking devices already exist in Star Wars. When the Millennium Falcon disappears in a fight with a Star Destroyer (by attaching to it's hull), the Captain remarks that "no ship that small has a cloaking device". This means that the Empire knows about cloaking devices, expects them to be reserved for something more threatening than the Falcon, and probably has ways of dealing with them (like a Tie Fighter swarm lighting up space with a laser disco party), they just thought they knew their enemy and didn't expect to encounter one in that fight.

The Empire uses deliberately simple tactics. Star Destroyers for punch, Tie Fighter swarm for saturation, and disposable Storm Troopers if they want to give the enemy a chance to surrender. They could do more with their ships, like put hyperdrives into Tie Fighters and cloaking devices into Star Destroyers, but the Emperor decided that this was the most efficient path to domination. If they focused on unique technologies, it seems reasonable that they'd have a surprise or two up their sleeves that Star Trek had never heard of.

 

[Anticitizen One]

This thread certainly explains all the girl-age threads around here

 

[Sblargh]

This thread is great. Keep at it, guys!

 

[BattleMonkey]

The thing about technology is that it can be stolen, reverse engineered, etc. If the empire was going to invade another dimension/galaxy/etc, no doubt they would have investigated this thoroughly beforehand, and if anything much of the tech in the Trek universe will have been learned about or brought back to the Empire for study. Transporter tech is very common in the trek universe for example, the tech would easily be acquired and suddenly you have the Galactic Empire with transporters for example. An invasion would not be taken likely, it would have been planned and if anything the empire would have lot of new knowledge and tech going into such an invasion.

I would doubt they would suddenly take all their forces and jump in a wormhole for the heck of it. Palpatine spent decades carefully planning the take over of the republic, to conquer an unknown galaxy would not happen over night. For all the the great technical achievements trek has, much of it would likely be planned for and adopted into the Empires own fleet before invasion.

Now in the same respect, what's going to stop the Trek races from adopting any of the advanced tech the Empire might have. An invasion of a whole galaxy would take time and would likely be a prolonged conflict, the races of Trek show great technical aptitude so one can assume they too would be able to learn and adapt.

A war between these universe would not be over in minutes like some here like to make out, but would probably be a huge and very long war if anything.

Trek's main advantage over the Empire (a few interesting technologies) might not even be an advantage.

Cloaking devices already exist in Star Wars. When the Millennium Falcon disappears in a fight with a Star Destroyer (by attaching to it's hull), the Captain remarks that "no ship that small has a cloaking device". This means that the Empire knows about cloaking devices, expects them to be reserved for something more threatening than the Falcon, and probably has ways of dealing with them (like a Tie Fighter swarm lighting up space with a laser disco party), they just thought they knew their enemy and didn't expect to encounter one in that fight.

The Empire uses deliberately simple tactics. Star Destroyers for punch, Tie Fighter swarm for saturation, and disposable Storm Troopers if they want to give the enemy a chance to surrender. They could do more with their ships, like put hyperdrives into Tie Fighters and cloaking devices into Star Destroyers, but the Emperor decided that this was the most efficient path to domination. If they focused on unique technologies, it seems reasonable that they'd have a surprise or two up their sleeves that Star Trek had never heard of.

And they do put hyperdrives and shielding on there fighters, the Tie Advanced and Tie Defender variants all had them. The standard Tie follows the stormtrooper philosophy of the empire of cheap disposable units. The empire for all it's power to cover so many systems extends itself by making use of cheap expendable firepower. For the cost of some high end fighters, they can have whole squadrons of Tie fighters where numbers usually gives a strong enough advantage in their favor.

Cloaking technology generally requires a capital ship as it has high power requirements. Cost and practicality of the technology in combat is limited so the Empire makes little use of it, as they rather their ships stand out and be imposing to the enemy.

 

[Cheerilee]

Now in the same respect, what's going to stop the Trek races from adopting any of the advanced tech the Empire might have. An invasion of a whole galaxy would take time and would likely be a prolonged conflict, the races of Trek show great technical aptitude so one can assume they too would be able to learn and adapt.

Trek stops Trek from adapting to the new technology (assuming the writing holds to form).

The greatest ships in Trek all become obsolete within the span of their own generations. They get maybe one round of upgrades if they're lucky, and beyond that they just weren't built with the basic foundations in place to become platforms for anything significantly better than what they currently are. After two generations they're nothing but space junk.

Look at Scotty. At the start of TOS, he was probably the single greatest mind in Starfleet, working on the greatest ship in the fleet, with his number one hobby being the assimilation of exciting new info. Physics texts were rewritten on his say-so. When they were making the Excelsior, he clearly wasn't the best of the best anymore, and was only part of the construction project in recognition of his years of distinguished service. When Kirk damaged his already-upgraded Enterprise in the fight with Kahn, Starfleet called it a total write off, and parked that once-great beauty, still running and in possibly better-than-new condition thanks to the upgrades, to rust in peace. Kirk stole it, wrecked it, and the gang was given a similar "classic" just to keep busy and stay out of everybody's hair. Sulu took the superior Excelsior, which by then was getting old and had already been surpassed. By the start of TNG, just outside of his generation, Scotty was still Scotty, but he was seen as a doddering old fool whose outdated ways of thinking bordered on senility. That same fate awaits Geordi.

If Picard hadn't crashed his first Enterprise by letting Troi drive it, it too would have seen the painful end of it's dignity. Heck, just look at Picard's old Stargazer. It was a useless novelty from the minute the Ferengi gave it to him, nevermind by the end of DS9 or Voyager or the TNG movies.

Trying to understand something that's beyond your level is a real barrier in Trek. And everyone thinks that what they have just discovered is the greatest thing there will ever be, until the next thing comes along like clockwork. The Borg would stand the best chance of comprehending Star Wars-level tech, not through reverse-engineering, but by getting their hands on and assimilating an engineer from Star Wars and basically having him instantly explain it to the rest via hive mind. Their current hardware likely couldn't be adapted to fight on a Star Wars-level overnight, but they are a very coordinated, tireless and efficient workforce and could start work on building the tools and foundations required to build new shipyards and, if given the time, could build a fleet to overpower the Empire, at which point they would be unstoppable and would rule both galaxies.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Trek stops Trek from adapting to the new technology (assuming the writing holds to form).

This is dealing with generational leaps, each generation trumps the next as Trek is a constantly evolving franchise tech wise, but for the span of this threads idea of an invasion, it would all take place in a single generation in a much smaller span. Lot of tech is shared throughout the Trek universe and would be easy to come by, and in the same manner of borg getting ahold of someone to learn from, the Wars universe would be able to do the exact same thing. Technological texts, scientists, captured tech, etc.

 

[Pandaman]

Trek's main advantage over the Empire (a few interesting technologies) might not even be an advantage.

Cloaking devices already exist in Star Wars. When the Millennium Falcon disappears in a fight with a Star Destroyer (by attaching to it's hull), the Captain remarks that "no ship that small has a cloaking device". This means that the Empire knows about cloaking devices, expects them to be reserved for something more threatening than the Falcon, and probably has ways of dealing with them (like a Tie Fighter swarm lighting up space with a laser disco party), they just thought they knew their enemy and didn't expect to encounter one in that fight.

The Empire uses deliberately simple tactics. Star Destroyers for punch, Tie Fighter swarm for saturation, and disposable Storm Troopers if they want to give the enemy a chance to surrender. They could do more with their ships, like put hyperdrives into Tie Fighters and cloaking devices into Star Destroyers, but the Emperor decided that this was the most efficient path to domination. If they focused on unique technologies, it seems reasonable that they'd have a surprise or two up their sleeves that Star Trek had never heard of.

wars cloaking devices work [perfectly] but are double blind, the empire had them but could never use them effectively with their ships.

thrawn did use them on asteroids and dumped them in orbit, this would force a planet into lockdown as they could never afford to lower their planetary shield and risk a hit.