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Something HAS to be done about PC gaming piracy. But what?
- Thread starter Borys
- Start date
Chairman Yang said:
Basically the best idea yet.
But... let's say you could hook up the dongle via USB. The probably biggest problem is what kind of function? Your external bus speed is limited so it can't be too hefty.
Second, chip cost. A custom chip costs money. And if you AIM for like 100 pieces, the price... I'm not sure how large it would be.
Though I admit, what about a central chip protection system. Like you mass produce the chip for all the games in a timespan of a half year, then switch to a new one to prevent a break in protection. That would severly cut costs on the chip.
Basically this is VERY effective, just look at the CPS2 and CPS3 protection system.
Any further suggestions?
BrainZEROX
Member
Edit: nvmvertopci said:
tha_con said:
You got numbers, or just more baseless speculation? As you say, "If you want to present something with substance that will hold water, you'll talk percentages" and here's one for you, PC gaming accounted for 30% of revenue in the US for video games in 2007. Now kindly put up or shut up.
So, you're saying that all devs should agree to make all of their games certain to have a certain performance at a certain resolution at some arbitrary quality setting? (Let's say medium.)No_Style said:At least we can fall on my second idea
I think most devs already do something like this on an individual basis. Making it standard across all devs kind of limits the more ambitious devs, doesn't it?
jakershaker
Member
Bah consoles are becoming PCs more and more for each generation. Piracy is not a problem for one part of the game industry it's a problem for everyone.
How long until you have 1 box under your tv that does everything your pc/ps3/360 does? The market will unify more and more and rather segment into game playing devices and work devices.
Anyway, Piracy will exist then too. As it always have. There will always be temporary fixes by the industry but everything is always cracked, always. If a product sells or not is decided by marketing and demand, simple as that.
Lower prices, bigger markets and worse punishment for piracy are good places to start for lowering the % of people pirating but it's impossible to eradicate.
How long until you have 1 box under your tv that does everything your pc/ps3/360 does? The market will unify more and more and rather segment into game playing devices and work devices.
Anyway, Piracy will exist then too. As it always have. There will always be temporary fixes by the industry but everything is always cracked, always. If a product sells or not is decided by marketing and demand, simple as that.
Lower prices, bigger markets and worse punishment for piracy are good places to start for lowering the % of people pirating but it's impossible to eradicate.
Even though PC gaming is dying and oh no and boo piracy, and all of that, it leads me to wonder this: In the past few years, there has been a real surge of PC-only developers from East Europe and Russia developing what are in many cases very ambitious and creative games - in a time when more and more mainstream developers from North America switch to consoles. So how can these studios survive, especially considering Eastern Europe is seen as one of the biggest piracy epicenters? Is it because the people there can't afford consoles?
I am so fucking sick and tired of this sensationalist shit around PC gaming. Piracy can't be stopped.
Maybe....just maybe if companies like Epic made products people actually want we'll buy it. Casual games are pirated, WoW is pirated, The Sims is pirated by a ton of people and they are all successful.
Games, like every other sort of entertainment will be pirated. Music artists, television producers, etc are wrapping their head around this crazzzy logic, why not game developers.
Maybe....just maybe if companies like Epic made products people actually want we'll buy it. Casual games are pirated, WoW is pirated, The Sims is pirated by a ton of people and they are all successful.
Games, like every other sort of entertainment will be pirated. Music artists, television producers, etc are wrapping their head around this crazzzy logic, why not game developers.
Vaporak said:
Why are you PC gamers so personal? Is it really THAT upsetting to know your system of preference is going down the tubes?
Look, if PC gaming accounted for 30% of Revenue, and it has the highest piracy rate of any platform on the market, what does that tell you?
Also, I think it's extremely likely that the 30% figure you're looking at includes hardware as well, which further illustrates how big the problem is.
bloodydrake
Cool Smoke Luke
You want to fix the piracy problem on pc games? fine its easy
1. Allow the resale of pc games
2. Allow the rental of Pc games
Its not what devs,producers,investors want to hear but its abig part of the reality of gaming on PC that without those 2 things people pirate.
1. Allow the resale of pc games
2. Allow the rental of Pc games
Its not what devs,producers,investors want to hear but its abig part of the reality of gaming on PC that without those 2 things people pirate.
Piracy can't be stopped
You are facing here an organised culture that is over 20 years old. Even worst; in the past decade, real criminal elements moved in to sponsor those groups. If you honestly think that those groups are still doing this for 'fun and competition', you are mistaken. There is big money being made by those groups with asian and russian people.
How do you think they fund the hardware required for the servers; storage, security and bribes? It's not from paypal donations thats for sure; especially for the movie scene were its rumored that a good screener than give the supplier a bonus in the 4 figures.
It's not kids using hacked pbxes like back in the bbs days. When a game/movie gets released online by groups, it's because it has been available to given to those fine syndicates for days/weeks so they can get a lead-in time to mass-manufactures copies to sell in the streets.
As long as there is money to make from it, there will always be piracy. The PC platform is the biggest victim since theres no need for 3rd party hardware modifications and so on. A simple crack is required. There's nothing that can be done; and now with effective mass-distribution tools such as bittorrent, it's even easier for end-users to get a hold of the release, which was something that was more 'closed' a decade ago.
You are facing here an organised culture that is over 20 years old. Even worst; in the past decade, real criminal elements moved in to sponsor those groups. If you honestly think that those groups are still doing this for 'fun and competition', you are mistaken. There is big money being made by those groups with asian and russian people.
How do you think they fund the hardware required for the servers; storage, security and bribes? It's not from paypal donations thats for sure; especially for the movie scene were its rumored that a good screener than give the supplier a bonus in the 4 figures.
It's not kids using hacked pbxes like back in the bbs days. When a game/movie gets released online by groups, it's because it has been available to given to those fine syndicates for days/weeks so they can get a lead-in time to mass-manufactures copies to sell in the streets.
As long as there is money to make from it, there will always be piracy. The PC platform is the biggest victim since theres no need for 3rd party hardware modifications and so on. A simple crack is required. There's nothing that can be done; and now with effective mass-distribution tools such as bittorrent, it's even easier for end-users to get a hold of the release, which was something that was more 'closed' a decade ago.
I'm pretty late to this thread, and a lot of this has probably already been said, but I think Stardock's solution is the best. No matter what form of copy protection you spend time and money implementing into your game, people will break it and piracy will continue. Incentives such as online multiplayer matchmaking and content patches (on top of games people actually want to play) greatly help push people to buy your games. Steam has this right, too. They're incentivising their game purchases the same way iTunes does for music sales, by providing things you want through a convenient online service. A number of games I've bought in the past have been a nightmare to get running due to software blacklisting, where the game's DRM wouldn't let me start my legitimately purchased game because of other programs I had installed on my computer. At that point it's easier just to download the cracks or antiblacklisting tools or whatever to get the game running instead of doing the research to find out just what's got the DRM's knickers in a knot. It just sucks to deal with, and I'm really glad some companies are doing away with the effort.
I don't believe piracy does quite as much damage to the industry as the publishers shout about in their earning reports, though. It's certainly a problem, but there's no effective way to quantify losses from group of people who probably wouldn't have bought the product anyways. It's the same thing we've all been bitching at the RIAA about for years when they attempt to sue the next single mother - potential sales aren't sales. They never talk about the potential sales it can create, either, because it can't be pinned down to a number and hurts the scapegoat for the other things that don't sell as well as expected.
Personally, I think the the barrier to entry is the PC's largest problem. The cost, complexity, and constant hardware arms race is a pain in the ass to keep up with.
I don't believe piracy does quite as much damage to the industry as the publishers shout about in their earning reports, though. It's certainly a problem, but there's no effective way to quantify losses from group of people who probably wouldn't have bought the product anyways. It's the same thing we've all been bitching at the RIAA about for years when they attempt to sue the next single mother - potential sales aren't sales. They never talk about the potential sales it can create, either, because it can't be pinned down to a number and hurts the scapegoat for the other things that don't sell as well as expected.
Personally, I think the the barrier to entry is the PC's largest problem. The cost, complexity, and constant hardware arms race is a pain in the ass to keep up with.
Shawn of GFW brought up the killer point to this whole PC developers porting their stuff to the 360, C&C3 sold over a million for the PC, whereas it sold around 300k on the 360.
It's not a catch-all solution. Some games are better suited and better played on the PC, Piracy has always been an Achilles heel for the PC platform, I don't see why now is any worse then 20 years ago.
It's not a catch-all solution. Some games are better suited and better played on the PC, Piracy has always been an Achilles heel for the PC platform, I don't see why now is any worse then 20 years ago.
Bidermaier
Member
education. Today a work mate suddenly asked me to download and install Broken Sword 3&4. After a minute explaining him how stupid and pointless piracy is i noticed he was ashamed and he asked me how to get games cheap games legally.
I am fed up with the losers that want to kill the PC as a gaming machine.
I am fed up with the losers that want to kill the PC as a gaming machine.
saelz8 said:I don't think he's taking it personally, he's just showing you that you're wrong. That's all.
Yup, it's really hard to have any kind of discussion about PC gaming and it's revenue/profit because it ends up just being FUD, FUD and more FUD. If there's one thing I hope the PCGA can do is promote/advertise the platform somehow. Oh and:
(neutral) tha_con
Banned
(Today, 03:42 PM)
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:lol
Bidermaier said:
Is there a way to get those particular games that doesn't "kill the PC as a gaming machine"? They're not being sold new any longer, and there's really no difference to the people who publish the games between buying a used game and piracy.
edit: In this case amazon does still have some new copies, but it many cases like this it gets into the whole "abandonware" thing, which is kind of grey area. More companies need to put their old stuff on online services.
Frankfurter
Member
RobertM said:
Every game would need to ship with tons of DVDs or Blu Rays in the box though. Tons of DVDs would just suck and well... more or less nobody has a Blu Ray drive for PC.
dork said:
Do we? Anyway, I know Steam isn't a complete solution but I think it's the way to go. If there's a game I want I'll buy it through Steam rather than a store simply because I want to keep the platform a viable option for gaming and I think in my own little way I'm helping this. I think PC gaming is far from dead but it's becoming increasingly patchy and harder to target audiences, it's not as clear cut as casual or hardcore as console gaming seems to be divided. I myself wouldn't class myself as either those as a PC gamer, I know a lot more about current and upcoming games etc. than the average person who plays games but I'd say I play much less than a casual gamer, maybe an hour and a half a week, literally. I don't think I'd fit into a target audience, dammit I'm the problem lol.
Forgive me if it's already been suggested in this long thread, but isn't there anything Microsoft can do about this? Cook something up with digital signatures and the next version of DirectX, so that only signed games running off the disc can use DirectX. That would bring the PC up to 360 standards of copy protection, at least.
JeremyR said:
Eh, that's not really true. The Stories line runs on the same engine as The Sims 2 (obviously, just look at them) and they pretty much have the same requirements. Certainly having more expasions installed will take up more hard disk space, but the performance of TS2 and the Stories series is about the same for me.
I would actually say Stories is worse because all the pre-made lots are filled to the brim with objects and there are usually lots of Sims that bog down the performance; whereas with TS2, you have a choice. Castaway Stories is particularly awful with all the lush vegetation and shimmery out-of-place water... it becomes a slideshow sometimes on my aging PC.
Kamakazie!
Member
lockii said:
Indeed, The Orange Box has sold "double figure percentages" more than both the 360 & PS3 version combined (which is at about 1.5m sold).
lockii said:
I also don't see how piracy is any worse than it was 20 years ago. There may be more pirates, but there are also more PCs and more people playing games on PC.
I asked it on the first page of this thread. Growing up the ratio of pirated software I saw in friends' homes versus legit stuff was through the roof. That was before you could downloading off of a BBS became popular - it was just stuff that had been copied from floppy to floppy, over and over again.
I remember friends with Bernoulli discs full of pirated software, refined to the point where there were frontend menus on the discs that would load the game you wanted to play.
Kamakazie!
Member
What? You were the one that said casuals buy games. Yet i just mentioned that they are pirated more than the hardcore games... of cause the ratio matters. You are complaining about PC piracy yet COD4, TOB, Crysis etc. all sold over 1m copies. We are not talking about them selling 100k or so now....DKnight said:
1m is a shit load for a PC game. Always has been and always will be.
Go look at the list of best selling PC games. There are very few titles that have sold mega-huge amounts but many in the couple of million range which i expect all the game i mentioned to be at sales wise within a year or 2 (PC games often sell better years later than they do a few months after launch due to people being able to play the games with newer upgrades).
There is nothing that can be done about pirates. The more intrusive the "copy protection" the more you
a) Piss off people who legit bought the game and now have to deal with the hassle
b) Just delay the release of a hacked version of the game that bypasses all of the security features
Has there been a single game that is "unhackable" to date yet? I don't think so, so nothing companies do to TRY and stop the pirates will work. Just focus on making a good game, understand that people will steal your work and try to make it worth while for those who do purchase the game.
a) Piss off people who legit bought the game and now have to deal with the hassle
b) Just delay the release of a hacked version of the game that bypasses all of the security features
Has there been a single game that is "unhackable" to date yet? I don't think so, so nothing companies do to TRY and stop the pirates will work. Just focus on making a good game, understand that people will steal your work and try to make it worth while for those who do purchase the game.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Some massively retarded shit in this thread, console only gamers really are clueless.
What the fuck are you talking about, the crackers will just remove the junk files before they put it on topsites.
RobertM said:
What the fuck are you talking about, the crackers will just remove the junk files before they put it on topsites.
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
no solution possible, as soon as they come up with a new protection hackers will break it in no time
IMO, nothing can be done to truly thwart pirates. You can delay zero-day releases, and purposely delay planned features in the form of patches which also break existing cracks, but invariably there'll always be a few times more people playing your game illegally than legit buyers, unless your game is a MMORPG.
The only way is to find a demographic or niche willing to buy your game and scale your development and marketing budget around the its size. European devs have been doing it for decades.
Obviously this is sometimes incompatible with the "bigger, shinnier, better!" frothing demand of certain types of gamers. If the amount of people buying your game isn't going to increase, why spend more money do make it?
The only way is to find a demographic or niche willing to buy your game and scale your development and marketing budget around the its size. European devs have been doing it for decades.
Obviously this is sometimes incompatible with the "bigger, shinnier, better!" frothing demand of certain types of gamers. If the amount of people buying your game isn't going to increase, why spend more money do make it?
Just curiosity. I heard WoW sells more than everything else combined, I'd like to see if that's true or not.saelz8 said:
Vast Inspiration
Banned
cilonen said:
While we're at it...how about the 360 doesn't get up and give you a blowjob and make you sandwich and serve you chocolate milk.
No one gives a fuck!
M3d10n said:
Serious question: If we take away the best selling Xbox/PS3/Wii games, how much is left?
edit:
M3d10n said:
Obviously not as The Sims franchise grinds it into a fine powder if were talking sales. The Sims is at nearly 100 MILLION sales since it began in 2000; and the fact that no one but EA seems to really want a piece of that part of the PC gaming pie is a little odd to say the least.
The Faceless Master
Member
ok, take out the top 2 from each and see what's left.Vaporak said: