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[hauton]

I've been curious about the PS3's development and how the tense relations between former Sony CEO Nobuyuki Idei and Ken Kutaragi may have affected the process. I was wondering if others may have any knowledge on the subject. My main questions:

1) How credible is the "conspiracy theory" that Idei set up Kutaragi and with him, the Playstation 3 project, for failure?
2) Was Ken Kutaragi happy with the way PS3 turned out?
3) Was PS3 originally designed with a dual-Cell implementation, with no GPU?
4) Did Sony execs force Kutaragi to work with Nvidia?
5) Would dual-Cell have been realistic?

It seems to me that if the PS3 was dual-Cell, it would've made a lot more sense.

1) No licensing fees for the RSX.
2) Development costs of Cell easier to swallow if you're using two in every PS3.
3) Yield rates and production costs would've improved much faster.
4) Smaller fabrication process (65nm and beyond) would make much more financial sense.
5) More elegant and simple design once developers understood Cell, maybe better in bandwidth (based on assumption, it seemed like RSX was a bottleneck)?

It would've probably been harder at first to develop for, but to me, it seems like the benefits outweighed the costs. If the rumored dual-Cell implementation was the original idea, why was it dropped? Was it unfeasible because Cell couldn't entirely replace GPU in the more speed-intensive tasks? Pressure from Sony execs?

 

[Link648099]

I haven't ever heard any of the rumors about the in-fighting. It wouldn't surprise me though, considering how they launched the thing and the image they attached to it.

 

[Psychotext]

From the first list:

3: Yes.
5: No - Imagine what the ports would have looked like without any GPU at all to work with.

It would have been potentially faster... but potentially faster in the areas that people are already struggling with.

 

[Busty]

When this thread decends into madness and outright chaos you can probably chart the start of such a decline to this line........

1) No licensing fees for the frankly sub-par RSX, which is a solid step behind the 360's Xenos GPU.

In before the avalanche of Uncharted and Killzone2 pics.

 

[Yoshichan]

In before the avalanche of Uncharted and Killzone2 pics.

Pretty much.

 

[Forsete]

1) No licensing fees for the frankly sub-par RSX, which is a solid step behind the 360's Xenos GPU.

Not in terms of power according to Criterion.

 

[PSGames]

Not in terms of power according to Criterion.

Most developers state 360 GPU > PS3 GPU and Cell > Xenon.

 

[hauton]

I haven't ever heard any of the rumors about the in-fighting. It wouldn't surprise me though, considering how they launched the thing and the image they attached to it.

From what I understand, the two's relationship was always sour. The conspiracy theory, based on the rumors, goes as follows:

Idei thought of Kutaragi as a rebel who did things his own way, with no respect of Sony corporate hierarchy and ultimately, a threat to him and his ally, Howard Stringer.

Former CEO Norio Ohga, Idei's predecessor, kept Kutaragi's career alive when Kutaragi went behind everyone's back and spent money and resources developing the SNES soundchip. When Nintendo "backstabbed" Sony for the CD add-on, it was Ohga who greenlit Kutaragi to develop the Playstation on their own. Basically, when Ohga was Kutaragi's savior during his rise. When he was gone, nobody was around to save Kutaragi, who was never an office politician.

In 2005, Idei demoted Kutaragi, despite his huge success, from the board of directors and assigned him to head up consumer electronics, which was in deep trouble at the time. He also assigned Howard Stringer to head up Sony's content business at Sony BMG. Basically, Idei set up Kutaragi for failure, eliminating his chances of CEO.

 

[NemesisPrime]

The original plan was indeed to let Cell do the GPU work.

But remember what the original design of Cell was supposed to be. The plan was to make a cheapo chip that could easily and automatically scale when more "Cells" were added. So, if that design goal had been reached, Sony could have just made a PS3 and added as many Cells as they could afford price wise.

Of course... the whole original design totally failed and it ended up being a PowerPC with DSPs and PS3 had to have a GPU (TBH I think IBM kinda pulled a fast one on Sony and laughed all the way to the bank with the R&D money from Cell... pure speculation ofc). Since nVidia was eager to stay in the console GPU race (all others had wisely switched to ATI after the XBox 1 Nvidia debacle) they offered the RSX cheaply.

Would it have been worse to develop for? Maybe.. maybe not. We will never know.

 

[The Innocent X]

PS3 with an even more obscure architecture would have been a disaster.

 

[hauton]

When this thread decends into madness and outright chaos you can probably chart the start of such a decline to this line........



In before the avalanche of Uncharted and Killzone2 pics.

You're probably right.

Disregard that line, I don't want this to be a gr4phx battle.

 

[Forsete]

Most developers state 360 GPU > PS3 GPU and Cell > Xenon.

I haven't read any. Criterion are very talented, they managed to pull of Burnout at 60Hz on both systems with small differences. I'd take their word over most others.

 

[Psychotext]

I haven't read any.

Carmack... and many others.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I haven't read any. Criterion are very talented, they managed to pull of Burnout at 60Hz on both systems with small differences. I'd take their word over most others.

Can you stop that know please. This has been settled ages ago. The 360 GPU is the better hardware. No need to start a flame war *again*!

 

[FirewalkR]

Carmack stated that if they had gone Cell-only, it would have been a deadly mistake. I tend to agree...

But some good info may come out of this thread, get Fafalada, Panajev and Nostromo/nAo over here and let them speak their minds.

 

[vpance]

From what I remember reading, according to devs and insiders and such:

-Despite the rumors, dual CELL was never in the plans
-Something else other than RSX (and likely better) could've been in PS3, but due to internal politics they went with what they have now

And if there was a dual CELL, PS3 gamers would probably only be playing a handful or two of titles at this point.

 

[hauton]

And I totally understand, and partially agree, that it would have been even harder to develop for without a traditional GPU.

But correct me if I'm wrong, but for some games, doesn't Cell help, to varying degrees, the RSX in tasks that are traditionally assigned to the GPU?

I don't think it would be a breeze, but I think that a dual-Cell PS3, developed properly, would've been able to keep up graphically, while being even better in general computing.

 

[xintin]

Carmack... and many others.

the same one who said iPhone > DS+PSP?

 

[Ello]

Carmack... and many others.

In other words, PC devs?

 

[The Innocent X]

And I totally understand, and partially agree, that it would have been even harder to develop for without a traditional GPU.

But correct me if I'm wrong, but for some games, doesn't Cell help, to varying degrees, the RSX in tasks that are traditionally assigned to the GPU?

I don't think it would be a breeze, but I think that a dual-Cell PS3, developed properly, would've been able to keep up graphically, while being even better in general computing.

Developers are already grumbling about how long it takes to port and PS3 exclusives are delayed left right and centre. If it were any more difficult a lot of people would skip it.

 

[Forsete]

Can you stop that know please. This has been settled ages ago. The 360 GPU is the better hardware. No need to start a flame war *again*!

Not as far as I am aware. I know the trolls at B3D likes to think so though, but that is another story.
And am I flaming by saying what Criterion said? Uh, ok.

But whatever floats your boat.

 

[NemesisPrime]

In other words, PC devs?

Both GPUs are available in similar configuration on PCs.

Anyway... plenty of tech website have done articles about this. This case should be closed.

while being even better in general computing.

BTW Cell is not great in general computing... it is very good in specialized floating point tasks and DSP-like calculations.

 

[FirewalkR]

the same one who said iPhone > DS+PSP?

Whatever you do, don't try to discredit Carmack, he's been a major innovative force in the industry for years and is one of the world's best engine programmers.

Besides, he hired one of Sony's top Cell programmers quite a while ago to help them, so he's bound to know what the machine is capable of.

 

[Psychotext]

In other words, PC devs?

You're right... PC devs know nothing about GPU technology and how they compare to each other. They clearly have no experience of dealing with the tech.

 

[Xyphie]

In other words, PC devs?

Funny because RSX is the most "PC-like" GPU of the two. :lol

 

[VictimOfGrief]

Both GPUs are available in similar configuration on PCs.

Anyway... plenty of tech website have done articles about this. This case should be closed.



BTW Cell is not great in general computing... it is very good in specialized floating point tasks and DSP-like calculations.

Hence why Itagaki was talking about Sony's move with the PS3 was bringing out it's own little "niche" personal computer in the latest EGM.

Still though, from an outsiders perspective, you have great games on both systems---both looking sharp and upcoming games like Killzone 2 really look to give most systems a run for their money.

It's all about the tools and time to develop on each system.

 

[Ello]

You're right... PC devs know nothing about GPU technology and how they compare to each other. They clearly have no experience of dealing with the tech.

Almost all PC devs I heard speak of the PS3 have not been of the positive kind. Newell said that Sony should cancell the PS3 and redo the whole thing, clearly he must be right.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Carmack would have bitched twice as much if that were to happen.

 

[Psychotext]

Almost all PC devs I heard speak of the PS3 have not been of the positive kind. Newell said that Sony should cancell the PS3 and redo the whole, clearly he must be right.

That's discussing the whole architecture, including the CELL and how hard it is to develop for.

It isn't what we're discussing here - we're talking about a straight out comparison between the power of the RSX and Xenos. Something they're clearly capable of doing.

 

[mr_bishiuk]

In other words, PC devs?

RSX is a PC card much more than the 360's GPU is.

 

[Ello]

That's discussing the whole architecture, including the CELL and how hard it is to develop for.

It isn't what we're discussing here - we're talking about a straight out comparison between the power of the RSX and Xenos. Something they're clearly capable of doing.

Of crourse, but are they more right than say Criterion?

RSX is a PC card much more than the 360's GPU is.

Now I know that, thank you.

 

[Madman]

I don't think most if any here can answer those questions. Odds are, this thread will continue along the course it is currently heading.

 

[Scotch]

I haven't read any. Criterion are very talented, they managed to pull of Burnout at 60Hz on both systems with small differences. I'd take their word over most others.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169112

Make sure you watch the entire thing, amazing interview.

 

[gofreak]

For some time many or most PS3 would look absolutely appalling next to 360 games. 2006 would have been too early to present a homogenous set of compute power.

 

[mr_bishiuk]

Criterion said they were equal which for a start was a fib because they can bet equal as they are different, also the fact Sony paid significant sums marketing burnout probably meant they were in their best behaviour when it comes to interviews.

Its widely accepted that the 360 GPU is the more powerful of the two

 

[Psychotext]

Of crourse, but are they more right than say Criterion?

Given Criterion are the only people I've heard go that way... yes, I'd say they are most probably. Plus we know the specs on paper which back them up.

 

[prettyvacant77]

Paging Mike B, he'll enlighten us all

 

[okrim]

Funny because RSX is the most "PC-like" GPU of the two. :lol

but unfortunately the ps3 is based to the Cell not gpu rsx and the pc developer hates that, however the same Carmack said the ps3 is the most powerfull although not prefers the hardware

 

[EviLore]

Carmack would have bitched twice as much if that were to happen.

He wouldn't have bitched, because PS3 multiplatform support probably wouldn't exist and he'd have no reason to care about the platform.

 

[Metalmurphy]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169112

Make sure you watch the entire thing, amazing interview.

Would have been even more amazing if he wasn't one of those that think we'd be better off with Single Core processors. He doesn't like change, we got it, we've been getting it for ages now.

He doesn't even mention the fact that the Cell is supposed to work together with the RSX.

He wouldn't have bitched, because PS3 multiplatform support probably wouldn't exist and he'd have no reason to care about the platform.

He bitched about it in the interview and it didn't even happen, so obviously he would bitch twice as much if it did happen.

 

[Draft]

Would have been even more amazing if he wasn't one of those that think we'd be better off with Single Core processors. He doesn't like change, we got it, we've been getting it for ages now.

We would be better off with single core processors, if it was possible to mass produce them to make them as fast as multicore processors without turning them into tiny suns.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Kutaragi set himself up for failure.

aka "People will get two jobs"

 

[hauton]

For some time many or most PS3 would look absolutely appalling next to 360 games. 2006 would have been too early to present a homogenous set of compute power.

That's probably true.

From what I understand, even cutting-edge GPGPUs like Tesla/Firestream/Larrabee are the closest we've got and they're not much of an improvement on Cell.

It would be interesting to see what Kutaragi could do if he went to Microsoft, given enough autonomy and a big enough slice of the MS warchest. Too bad their bitter rivalry eliminates any chance of it happening.

 

[wayward archer]

Is this thread gonna turn into one of THOSE threads? You know, fanboys arguing over things they really don't understand?

I'll take Carmack's word for it. He's pretty much the godfather of 3d graphics and has delivered 5 state of the art 3d engines that match anything anyone else at the time.

He's also more concerned with giving a quality product to all his fans and not trying to give any one platform hardware an edge in some stupid brand loyalty war.

 

[gofreak]

That's probably true.

From what I understand, even cutting-edge GPGPUs like Tesla/Firestream/Larrabee are the closest we've got and they're not much of an improvement on Cell.

It would be interesting to see what Kutaragi could do if he went to Microsoft, given enough autonomy and a big enough slice of the MS warchest. Too bad their bitter rivalry eliminates any chance of it happening.

Not much different than what he'd do at Sony. He had enormous resources at his disposal for PS3, and technologically, he did do some great things with it.

It would have been way too early to put Cell on GPU work though. The only way you can do that is if you come up with some Cell chip or Cell variant that is reasonably competitive with current GPUs (for those worshipping Carmack as the be-and-end-all of technology commentary, he says the same thing). They couldn't have done that in 2006. Can they do that for 2011? I don't know if they're hoping too, but I think it would be cool if they could. It would have a lot of advantages on a number of levels.

 

[FirewalkR]

Is this thread gonna turn into one of THOSE threads? You know, fanboys arguing over things they really don't understand?

That's why I'm still hoping for some real devs to show up, give their 2 cents, and we can call it a day.

 

[Worm_Buffet]

He bitched about it in the interview and it didn't even happen, so obviously he would bitch twice as much if it did happen.

You missed his point. The PS3 would have been stillborn and Carmack wouldn't need to develop for it's nonexistant userbase.

 

[Sushen]

5) Would dual-Cell have been realistic?

Not any more than single Cell.

3) Yield rates and production costs would've improved much faster.

What dual-Cell has to do with yield rates???

5) More elegant and simple design once developers understood Cell, maybe better in bandwidth (based on assumption, it seemed like RSX was a bottleneck)?

Juggling 5 processors is enough of headache, making it 10 won't make things more "elegant and simple". Sure, you can get used to it, but just like yourself, devs would take lazy route every time given chance.


Having said that things like that could totally happen in the business politics.

 

[Cobra84]

RSX is a PC card much more than the 360's GPU is.

2 years ago maybe, but not now. All cards since the Geforce 8X00 and Radeon HD2X00 are more similar to the Xenos (unified shaders) than the RSX. The RSX's separate pixel and vertex shaders are a thing of the past.

 

[gofreak]

Not any more than single Cell.


What dual-Cell has to do with yield rates???

Manufacturing volumes would be twice as big, so presumably yields would improve faster.

Juggling 5 processors is enough of headache, making it 10 won't make things more "elegant and simple". Sure, you can get used to it, but just like yourself, devs would take lazy route every time given chance.

Developers juggle dozens of processors in the current console's GPUs, and hundreds on PC GPUs. It's just all hidden away behind a nice API. If a company were to use a processor like Cell for graphics work, of course they'd need a nice API to abstract it all away too.