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I would imagine "Move" to be a suitable name for the entire line of motion control games like Nintendo does it with their "Touch Generatiions" series.

As a name for the sticks themselves it seems hard to imagine.

Surely you mean Wii_________?

 

[UntoldDreams]

1-1 should mean Light-gun-like aiming. Real aiming.

Your mouse is 1:1 with your screen and does not point at the screen.

If the mouse gets out of calibration you physically pick it up and put it back in the center of the pad. It works fine.

If the ARC gets out of rotational calibration then they have to recalibrate but as i understand it the SIXAXIS had a gravity sensor anyways to reorient the axis.

http://www.psu.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-62921.html

So the question is for something as simple as a light gun game where you are rotating the controller what? 20 degrees or so to point at a TV set? Is it going to be that bad?

Honestly after spending an inordinate amount of time using the SIXAXIS gyroscope to steer racing games I am pretty sure its going to be fine.

EDIT: The gravity sensor should be able to detect up/down left/right gravity pull to help reorient the gyroscopes.

 

[mr_nothin]

Like this perhaps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

That's using motion tracking of the controller to control the camera instead of 'pointing'.

Thats the kind of gameplay I want!. But hopefully you'll be able to hold down the "Z" button (on the back of the ARC) and move the controller w/o the in-game cursor moving.

1:1 FPS controls w/o all the shaky crap. You're able to turn around on a dime too.

If the mouse gets out of calibration you physically pick it up and put it back in the center of the pad. It works fine.

This is basically what Im getting at the holding the "Z" button down. Holding "Z" is the equivalent to picking up your mouse and repositioning.

 

[Lonely1]

That won't work, the PS3 would have no idea at what point of the TV you are aiming the wand.

But since a degree of inaccuracy is already expected in real life aiming, I'm sure that Arc will work fine as a light-gun with using the gyroscopes for the orientation of the wand. This is what people are actually talking about when referring to "see the E3 video" to show Arc's pointer capabilities.

 

[gofreak]

That won't work, the PS3 would have no idea at what point of the TV you are aiming the wand.

No more or less than the Wiimote does...with calibration it could perhaps. Again, dependent on quality of orientation data - they were 'doing' 3D pointing at E3, but I suppose you can argue if it's as good as Wii's or not. I don't know, I think it's impossible to say for now.

That does require an extremely high level of sensitivity though (and still adds a heavy layer of abstraction) Still, that's probably closer to the kind of FPS setup I reckon you're gonna get with the Arc (though it probably wouldn't work so well with light gun style games or Trauma Center style pointer controls. I reckon those kind of controls will rely on absolute positioning instead of orientation)

I should say regarding this video, do not get me wrong, I am not presenting this as 'this is what it would be like with Arc'. I don't think we know enough to say if that's possible with Arc (though if I had to guess I see no reason not). I'm just saying, in the general case, that's what motion tracking in a FPS could look like, in response to the question.

 

[rollingstart]

1:1 aiming would be more like, uh, imagine the 180 degrees in front and to the sides of you were the same as for your character in the game. Imagine there is a guy coming at your character from the left, let's say at 10 o'clock, in real life you take the controller and point it to 10 o'clock and your character will mimick that action. You run into the problem of "how will you turn and look around?" and "how would that work in first person". Dual analog sticks would have been a cheap solution for that. RE4/Tank controls would be another solution. Something I'm not quite creative enough to come up with would be yet another solution. Maybe even augmented head tracking is a solution.

One of the biggest thing that severely limits motion controls is that these games are still played on a flat 2D monitor that takes up but a fraction of your complete field of view. Now, if we had monitors all around us or VR goggles or some shit like that, it would be more practical...as practical as playing games like a freaking cyborg.

 

[donny2112]

You have to move the pointer to the edges and then it'll slowly turn.

Go get The Conduit for cheap (or Modern Warfare Reflex for not cheap) to see why it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

1:1 aiming would be more like, uh, imagine the 180 degrees in front and to the sides of you were the same as for your character in the game. Imagine there is a guy coming at your character from the left, let's say at 10 o'clock, in real life you take the controller and point it to 10 o'clock and your character will mimick that action. You run into the problem of "how will you turn and look around?" and "how would that work in first person". Dual analog sticks would have been a cheap solution for that. RE4/Tank controls would be another solution. Something I'm not quite creative enough to come up with would be yet another solution. Maybe even augmented head tracking is a solution.

One of the biggest thing that severely limits motion controls is that these games are still played on a flat 2D monitor that takes up but a fraction of your complete field of view. Now, if we had monitors all around us or VR goggles or some shit like that, it would be more practical...as practical as things playing games like a freaking cyborg.

 

[Lan_97]

I don't know about significantly better, but it's different, and those differences might make for a better or worse experience depending on the type of game. Perhaps one improvement might be independent detection of rotation vs panning of the camera, distinguishing between those, which I don't think the wiimote pointer output provides for. The other big difference I guess is just the different relationship between controller and screen in each case...in the pointer case there's a strong relationship, it's like a lightgun, in the case of that sixsense stuff, there's no relationship really, it's abstracted away a bit. I don't think that's better or worse or whatever, I think that is totally dependent on what suits a game.

I have not used this controller, but it looks the same to me from a gameplay standpoint. Aim/shoot near the center of the screen, aim near outer edge or off the screen to turn. I don't see how this controller lets you "turn on a dime" (someone else said this).

1:1 aiming would be more like, uh, imagine the 180 degrees in front and to the sides of you were the same as for your character in the game. Imagine there is a guy coming at your character from the left, let's say at 10 o'clock, in real life you take the controller and point it to 10 o'clock and your character will mimick that action. You run into the problem of "how will you turn and look around?" and "how would that work in first person". Dual analog sticks would have been a cheap solution for that. RE4/Tank controls would be another solution. Something I'm not quite creative enough to come up with would be yet another solution. Maybe even augmented head tracking is a solution.

One of the biggest thing that severely limits motion controls is that these games are still played on a flat 2D monitor that takes up but a fraction of your complete field of view. Now, if we had monitors all around us or VR goggles or some shit like that, it would be more practical...as practical as playing games like a freaking cyborg.

This.

 

[yurinka]

1-1 should mean Light-gun-like aiming. Real aiming.

This. I think the difference is that with wand, playing a shooter you can point to the same pixel than in Wii, but in addition to that the shoot angle can vary if you are pointing it from the left, the bottom, etc.

Or that you can be pointing to the left with the game camera (using headtracking) and to shoot to the right (opposite side of where is pointing the game camera).

 

[UntoldDreams]

That won't work, the PS3 would have no idea at what point of the TV you are aiming the wand.

That does require an extremely high level of sensitivity though (and still adds a heavy layer of abstraction) Still, that's probably closer to the kind of FPS setup I reckon you're gonna get with the Arc (though it probably wouldn't work so well with light gun style games or Trauma Center style pointer controls. I reckon those kind of controls will rely on absolute positioning instead of orientation)

I disagree that it won't work well. I think it will work absolutely fine.

A mouse [edit](CAN BE) 1:1 with a computer screen and it does not look at the screen.

Given the supposed accuracy of the gyroscopes and gravity calibration I would rather bet that they have solved this problem already.

 

[mr_nothin]

Go get The Conduit for cheap (or Modern Warfare Reflex for not cheap) to see why it doesn't have to be that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FyEDrp7ec&feature=related

It looks the same as what I've described. In order to do a 180, you have to drag to the edge of the screen and you have to wait for the screen to turn.

 

[golem]

Your mouse is 1:1 with your screen and does not point at the screen.

What? A mouse in normal use is absolutely not 1:1.. there are things called acceleration, mouse speed, etc

 

[Lan_97]

Light gun aiming should work fine as long as the camera position and tv size are calibrated for.

 

[mr_nothin]

I have not used this controller, but it looks the same to me from a gameplay standpoint. Aim/shoot near the center of the screen, aim near outer edge or off the screen to turn. I don't see how this controller lets you "turn on a dime" (someone else said this).

You cant see the difference between this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBMEN5Bvpg

and

this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FyEDrp7ec&feature=related
????

This is hopeful thinking on my part because it's what I'm expecting the PS3 ARC to be like.
To be more specific,
Look at 2:25-2:30 on the Conduit video
then look at 00:16-00:17 on the Sixense video.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

No more or less than the Wiimote does...with calibration it could perhaps. Again, dependent on quality of orientation data - they were 'doing' 3D pointing at E3, but I suppose you can argue if it's as good as Wii's or not. I don't know, I think it's impossible to say for now.

You're right, the Wiimote can't do perfect light gun style aiming either (Though the HOTD2& 3, Ghost Squad and HOTD Overkill calibration is very close. I am able to play the game without a cursor and can look down the barrel of the Wiimote to shoot almost perfectly accurately from 6ft away on a 37" TV) You couldn't really do any kind of TV calibration with the Arc though since there's no way to calibrate absolute positioning to a TV size (and gyroscopic aiming would be retarded for this type of game anyway)

I should say regarding this video, do not get me wrong, I am not presenting this as 'this is what it would be like with Arc'. I don't think we know enough to say if that's possible with Arc (though if I had to guess I see no reason not). I'm just saying, in the general case, that's what motion tracking in a FPS could look like, in response to the question.

I'm not saying that you are, I just think that devs would be more likely to use this setup since using absolute positioning in a FPS game for pointing would be silly since you're probably going to be sitting down while playing.

 

[UntoldDreams]

What? A mouse in normal use is absolutely not 1:1.. there are things called acceleration, mouse speed, etc

Yes I know there are features we throw at the mouse.
The point is a mouse COULD be 1:1 with a computer screen without a laser pointer.

It is accurate enough without requiring a laser pointer to get headshots in a game context.

Add to the fact that the ARC should be recalibrating the gyroscopes using gravity it would be like having a mouse which re-calibrated its position on screen automatically.

In other words... ARC should be fine to play those light gun games.

 

[Squeak]

Thats the kind of gameplay I want!. But hopefully you'll be able to hold down the "Z" button (on the back of the ARC) and move the controller w/o the in-game cursor moving.

1:1 FPS controls w/o all the shaky crap. You're able to turn around on a dime too.


This is basically what Im getting at the holding the "Z" button down. Holding "Z" is the equivalent to picking up your mouse and repositioning.

Don't even bother. I've been suggesting that control scheme for years with the wiimote, which is really better suited for it because of it's higher precision with small movements. People just generally seem too dense to get it. Sometimes you just have to force-shove something in their face to make them understand.
It would be pretty ironic if it was a PS3 Arc fps. that introduced the method to the masses when the wiimote has been capable of it for years.
It would be very nice though to get rid of the stupid, sluggish backwards Metroid control scheme of pushing the screen around.

 

[donny2112]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FyEDrp7ec&feature=related

It looks the same as what I've described. In order to do a 180, you have to drag to the edge of the screen and you have to wait for the screen to turn.

That is, but he must not have turned up the sensitivity and reduced the bounding box as much as possible. It won't keep the cursor in the middle of the screen, but you can turn very quickly without having to point the cursor at the edge of the screen.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

GAF > Internet > GAF

 

[mr_nothin]

Don't even bother. I've been suggesting that control scheme for years with the wiimote, which is really better suited for it because of it's higher precision with small movements. People just generally seem too dense to get it. Sometimes you just have to force-shove something in their face to make them understand.
It would be pretty ironic if it was a PS3 Arc fps. that introduced the method to the masses when the wiimote has been capable of it for years.
It would be very nice though to get rid of the stupid, sluggish backwards Metroid control scheme of pushing the screen around.

Yea, I'm not seeing how people are not getting what I'm saying. :/

That is, but he must not have turned up the sensitivity and reduced the bounding box as much as possible. It won't keep the cursor in the middle of the screen, but you can turn very quickly without having to point the cursor at the edge of the screen.

That's still stupid to me, the other way would still be more accurate and precise.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

 

[Man]

:lol

 

[mr_nothin]

:lol :lol

 

[Y2Kev]

http://i40.tinypic.com/r8usra.jpg[/MG][/QUOTE]
:lol

let's count how many times that gets said in this thread

we're at 3, i bet we get to 7

 

[beast786]

:lol

 

[TTP]

OMFG :lol

 

[belvedere]

So classic, well done PC.

:lol

 

[mr_nothin]

:lol

let's count how many times that gets said in this thread

we're at 3, i bet we get to 7

DEEPER

 

[jiggle]

:lol wow...

 

[donny2112]

the other way would still be more accurate and precise.

*shrugs*

You seemed to think that all Wii FPSs had to operate where you turned really slowly and had a huge bounding box. That's not the way it actually is, so I gave you two examples where the game allows customized controls to make that not the case. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other. A MWReflex developer did say that they tried the "lock the cursor in the middle of the screen" option, and it didn't work well in practice, though.

 

[Kaako]

Pristine_Condition with the perfection. Well done sir. :lol

 

[belvedere]

The picture has a much deeper meaning though.
It's basically what's going on in this thread. "Everybody likes motion controls now" because we're able to experience it with better graphics/sounds/physics/etc etc.

Thought that was obvious haha.

New film, home theater.
Old series, b&w tv plus crummy ass apartment.

:lol

Icing on the cake.

 

[Chris_C]

Yeah I don't see much potential for Natal in "hardcore" game design.
There are no buttons, therefore simple tasks are made unnecessarily complex.

You can't play Tomb Raider on a Natal. Climbing all over your living room and doing backflips just isn't fun, because none of us are Lara Croft.

On the other hand, the PS Controller uses the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

I've been puzzled about that myself. I mean the Milo demo had me dreaming of an Oblivion style game implementing realistic (ish) AI that responds to you as you talk to him/her, but after that how do you move around? Do you have to pick up the controller whenever you want to wander the countryside and then put it down for "NATALTIME" conversations?

I also couldn't help but think that a lot of the stuff going on in that demo could be handled by the PSEye (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The PSEye can do relatively complex face tracking and read facial expressions (though not as precisely as Natal, and not full body) and the PSEyes microphone array is good enough to pick up your speech, the rest was just software.

I should state that I'm not slagging off Natal, I just find it difficult to understand how it's going to be used in hardcore games.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Yeah guys...a joke is so much funnier when you have to go explaining its "deeper meaning" to people...

:/

 

[mr_nothin]

*shrugs*

You seemed to think that all Wii FPSs had to operate where you turned really slowly and had a huge bounding box. That's not the way it actually is, so I gave you two examples where the game allows customized controls to make that not the case. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other. A MWReflex developer did say that they tried the "lock the cursor in the middle of the screen" option, and it didn't work well in practice, though.

I know what you're getting at but the thing is...no matter how much you customize the controls, you're still bound by a box. You have to get to the edge of that box in order to turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsm0IzxfT7c

That's MW:Reflex. That looks so clumsy.

Yeah guys...a joke is so much funnier when you have to go explaining its "deeper meaning" to people...

:/

I had to buzzkill man. It's what I do

 

[Ashes]

two -almost perfect- gifs on the same day...... nicely done.

edit- if it is in 3d space though -unlike wii motion plus- the arc effectively becomes yours eyes/head.

 

[v0yce]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[Andvary]

*awesome pic*

:lol

 

[J-Rzez]

Yeah guys...a joke is so much funnier when you have to go explaining its "deeper meaning" to people...

:/

I got it immediately, and you with the internet, flawless victory, fatality, and all that.

 

[gofreak]

You're right, the Wiimote can't do perfect light gun style aiming either (Though the HOTD2& 3, Ghost Squad and HOTD Overkill calibration is very close. I am able to play the game without a cursor and can look down the barrel of the Wiimote to shoot almost perfectly accurately from 6ft away on a 37" TV) You couldn't really do any kind of TV calibration with the Arc though since there's no way to calibrate absolute positioning to a TV size

I'm not sure I follow you. If you have the camera at a known point with respect to the TV (e.g. in the centre on top of it), and you know the size of the screen (edit: and aspect ratio), and you know the position of the controller in front of the camera (and the distance/orientation for 3D pointing), you have all you need to map the controller location to a point on the TV. I think (!)

(and gyroscopic aiming would be retarded for this type of game anyway)

How come? Assuming it was accurate enough, I mean.

 

[Trailblaster]

http://i40.tinypic.com/r8usra.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

:lol

Pristine wins

 

[F-Pina]

I am really interested in the results of an Oblivion style game where besides the Motion Controller gameplay for the sword and shield we also get 3D depth perception with the new 3D TVs.

This would be perfect to hit stuff with extreme precision and deflect blows etc.
Or maybe a Dead Space 2 style survival horror FPS with only mellee weapons?

 

[Bizzyb]

Let me get this straight: now everybody loves motion control?

No, but you have quite a few people who are bandwagon-ing just because Sony's now doing it.

 

[Ashes]

in the e3 vid, the fps controls are too jerky. I'm more concerned with that tbh

 

[electroshockwave]

I know what you're getting at but the thing is...no matter how much you customize the controls, you're still bound by a box. You have to get to the edge of that box in order to turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsm0IzxfT7c

That's MW:Reflex. That looks so clumsy.

I think a big issue with motion controls in FPS games is that there's a weird disconnect when you're controlling a gun that you would need two hands to hold (like assault rifles and sniper rifles) with a pointer that you're holding in one hand. I think Metroid Prime avoided this since the cannon is more like an extension of your arm. Although that Sixsense demo obviously seemed like a big improvement on Wii games.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Good show, Pristine_Condition:lol

 

[krimsoncharge]

:lol

gaf never disappoints

 

[donny2112]

I think a big issue with motion controls in FPS games is that there's a weird disconnect when you're controlling a gun that you would need two hands to hold (like assault rifles and sniper rifles) with a pointer that you're holding in one hand.

Eh? Just curious, but is the disconnect greater or lesser than controlling a gun that you would need two hands to hold (like assault rifles and sniper rifles) with your thumb? We're still playing video games here, after all.

Spoiler

By the way, motion controls in FPS games usually aren't used to control the gun. That would be the pointer controls.

 

[UntoldDreams]

Motion control would have been interesting with Shadow of The Colossus actually.

*) Firing the bow and arrow
*) Climbing a colossus hand over hand
*) Stabbing the weakpoint by releasing one hand from the hair of the colossus and holding a sword instead.

I think immersion with 1:1 would have been much greater for this game.