Support NeoGAF

[Yagharek]

Oooh. A $100 version, which requires you to sign a contract that you won't modify it, or a $600 which is free to use. That'd be fun

Well we seem to have just paid $600 for one we are not allowed to modify, if sony's showboating is to be believed. Only without a contract or agreement to say so.

Sony's behaviour has been nothing short of disgusting.

 

[Psychotext]

Is that a typo in the title or is it intentional?

 

[sensi97]

While this is true, the fact is that what the law says says 'phone', and unless you can convince the judge that the PS3 is a phone, that might be a problem

(I'm assuming that, strictly speaking, merely convincing the judge that the PS3 is *equivalent* to a phone as far as the law is concerned is insufficient)

Not only a phone but also wireless.

(2) Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

 

[mclem]

Not only a phone but also wireless.


http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

Which is also not relevant to the actual point of the exemption, but may be another vector by which it could be argued that the exemption does not apply.

 

[expy]

It's related, in that part of the defence is likely to be that the purpose for cracking the system was not circumventing protection mechanisms, but restoring functionality that had been unreasonably removed.

Unreasonably, meaning, because the defendant, was circumventing protection mechanisms by using this said feature?

 

[iapetus]

Unreasonably, meaning, because the defendant, was circumventing protection mechanisms by using this said feature?

Unreasonably meaning because it was an advertised feature that had been described by Sony as one of the most important features of the console, and the vast majority of the people that it was removed from were not using it to circumvent protection mechanisms, as you well know.

 

[BritBloke916]

Is that a typo in the title or is it intentional?

Mispelling Geroge is the new mispelling Patcher.

 

[test_account]

Actually, they've created 4 pillars (iirc) on what constitutes fair use. The LoC went through each one with the phone exemption and explained how jailbreaking phones, despite circumventing protections and despite telling others how to do it, was fair use.

I see, so there is some kind of guidelines that are followed? Do you know what these 4 pillars are?

I also wonder if this case will make much difference. I mean, this is far from the first time that a device has been hacked, and it is not the first time that someone has been sued for it. Besides this Sony case, Microsoft recently sued that guy for making modchips for the Xbox and i think that it took nearly a year before Microsoft decided to drop the case, but still nothing was changed in the DMCA (the case was dropped in November or December last year though, so maybe it is too early to see any changes in the DMCA). But what makes this PS3 hacking any different from the hacks on other devices? If any expemptions havnt been made to hacking consoles before, why would it be done now?

In theory, yes. In actuality you run into issues with vagueness, ambiguity, and the inherent restriction of using language to completely express an idea. These issues (and others) allow wiggle room for different interpretations of the written laws,regulations, and judicial opinions, which leads to litigation and the cycle beginning again.

Yeah, i guess that an expemtion has to be worded very specific to avoid as much vagueness as possible indeed.

 

[Massa]

Unreasonably meaning because it was an advertised feature that had been described by Sony as one of the most important features of the console, and the vast majority of the people that it was removed from were not using it to circumvent protection mechanisms, as you well know.

I think expy's point is that geohot hacked and released an exploit for the PS3 before the 3.21 fiasco so he can't argue in court that's why he did it. I don't think it would matter anyway.

 

[test_account]

Unreasonably meaning because it was an advertised feature that had been described by Sony as one of the most important features of the console, and the vast majority of the people that it was removed from were not using it to circumvent protection mechanisms, as you well know.

Just out of curiousity, was OtherOS decribed by Sony as one of the most important feature on the PS3? I never saw otherOS mentioned in a PS3 commercial (although the early PS3 commercial had little to do with the PS3 itself hehe) and OtherOS is not even mention on back of my 60GB PS3 box when it comes to the PS3's features. I know that several of people found OtherOS to be one of the most important features of the PS3, but did Sony said this?

 

[Massa]

Just out of curiousity, was OtherOS decribed by Sony as one of the most important feature on the PS3? I never saw otherOS mentioned in a PS3 commercial (although the early PS3 commercial had little to do with the PS3 itself hehe) and OtherOS is not even mention on back of my 60GB PS3 box when it comes to the PS3's features. I know that several of people found OtherOS to be one of the most important features of the PS3, but did Sony said this?

Yes.

 

[test_account]

Yes.

Thanks Now that you mention it, i do remember that Phil Harrison said that comment about PS3 being as a PC. I think that it is wierd that OtherOS was hardly mentioned through adverticement though, especially if it was concidered by Sony as one of the most important features of the PS3. As i mentioned earlier, OtherOS is not even mentioned as a feature on back of the 60GB PS3 box (at least the european box). I would think that it would be listed there if it was seen as one of the most important features of the console, that is mostly why i wondered =)

 

[a.wd]

I think expy's point is that geohot hacked and released an exploit for the PS3 before the 3.21 fiasco so he can't argue in court that's why he did it. I don't think it would matter anyway.

Did he release that exploit, I thought he just said that he had done it?

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

Well we seem to have just paid $600 for one we are not allowed to modify, if sony's showboating is to be believed. Only without a contract or agreement to say so.

Sony's behaviour has been nothing short of disgusting.

Actually, in this situation, $1100(before the price cuts). Would be the bare minimum of price for one you were allowed to modified.(based on how much hardware makers who make a profit off of their hardware charge)

 

[jcm]

Did he release that exploit, I thought he just said that he had done it?

He released it last January. OtherOS was removed two months later.

 

[test_account]

Well we seem to have just paid $600 for one we are not allowed to modify, if sony's showboating is to be believed. Only without a contract or agreement to say so.

Sony's behaviour has been nothing short of disgusting.

You might be allowed to modify it as long as you dont touch the PS3 software. But what else should they have done in an attempt to stop piracy? And are we allowed to modify any consoles? Microsoft and Nintendo have also sued people over things like this.

 

[TimeKillr]

"saves post"

For those who ask us to think about the developers regarding homebrew and jailbreaking, here is one person among many who thinks it should be allowed.

I'm also a game dev and I also think homebrew and jailbreaking should be allowed. It may lead to piracy, but piracy isn't (by very, VERY FAR) not the worst problem the industry is facing right now.

Week 1 used game sales are MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than piracy. I've had discussions with CEOs about it and even they admit it, but they refuse to speak up about it because it may ruin relations with retailers, who are already difficult to deal with as it is.

 

[Krauser Kat]

I'm also a game dev and I also think homebrew and jailbreaking should be allowed. It may lead to piracy, but piracy isn't (by very, VERY FAR) not the worst problem the industry is facing right now.

Week 1 used game sales are MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than piracy. I've had discussions with CEOs about it and even they admit it, but they refuse to speak up about it because it may ruin relations with retailers, who are already difficult to deal with as it is.

Used Game Gaf is going to lynch you for saying that. It would be awesome to see numbers to back up this claim, because i also believe it has a significant impact. Though i rarely get console games any more and buy through steam usually.

 

[kitch9]

Well we seem to have just paid $600 for one we are not allowed to modify, if sony's showboating is to be believed. Only without a contract or agreement to say so.

Sony's behaviour has been nothing short of disgusting.

Disgusting is harsh. If all anybody could do with CFW is write indie programs etc, but nobody could pirate Sony would maybe be a bit more chilled in their response.

Sony have billions invested in their product, and all that was happening with regards CFW was numerous devs trying to make the absolutely easiest to use back-up manager, or emulators that play copied games from other machines.

Its understandable that they will use every bit of the law that they can to protect themselves, as they can't just send ninja's round to kick the hackers ass into submission.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Fry those drives, son.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Used Game Gaf is going to lynch you for saying that. It would be awesome to see numbers to back up this claim, because i also believe it has a significant impact. Though i rarely get console games any more and buy through steam usually.

I'd love to have Phosphor and othees who agree with him respond to this dev and the other who believe the JB and homebrew are and should continue to be allowed. Afterall, mpst of the statements against it are basd on financial damage to devs while here we have 2 devs in favor with one stating used games are a bigger problem.

 

[TimeKillr]

Used Game Gaf is going to lynch you for saying that. It would be awesome to see numbers to back up this claim, because i also believe it has a significant impact. Though i rarely get console games any more and buy through steam usually.

They can lynch me all they want.

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

The further it gets the less problematic it becomes - nobody cares about used games 3 or 4 months in, but the first few weeks are absolutely crucial, and places like Gamestop that put up copies the next day at a 5$ rebate are REALLY hurting us.

 

[lupinko]

Fry those drives, son.

Obstruction of justice, son.

 

[lupinko]

They can lynch me all they want.

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

The further it gets the less problematic it becomes - nobody cares about used games 3 or 4 months in, but the first few weeks are absolutely crucial, and places like Gamestop that put up copies the next day at a 5$ rebate are REALLY hurting us.

That's more of a problem with Gamestop than the used market imo.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

They can lynch me all they want.

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

The further it gets the less problematic it becomes - nobody cares about used games 3 or 4 months in, but the first few weeks are absolutely crucial, and places like Gamestop that put up copies the next day at a 5$ rebate are REALLY hurting us.

That is why so many of us brought up the used game market in the other threads regarding Geohot and the jailbreak. Many here proclaim their first concern regarding Geohot going public with the keys is that it will have damage to the developers. When folks like myself and others brought up the used game market they basically said that its not the same.

I am happy that the used game market is still here (love Goozex but hate GS). If someone is going to state their first concern is developers than I don't understand how they cannot come out equally or even harder against the used game market.

 

[Krauser Kat]

They can lynch me all they want.

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

The further it gets the less problematic it becomes - nobody cares about used games 3 or 4 months in, but the first few weeks are absolutely crucial, and places like Gamestop that put up copies the next day at a 5$ rebate are REALLY hurting us.

That's so depressing to create the game and start seeing all these people using your experience with no credit to you. Capitalizing on those who still play your games but dont give you profit, can be really difficult it sequels are not on the way and dlc is unviable.

 

[mclem]

I'm an ex-dev too, actually. Was laid off last year. I think, deep down, devs really just want their games to be *played*; they want their hard work to be *enjoyed*. Certainly, if someone *genuinely* didn't have means to play a game legitimately, I wouldn't shed any tears if they pirated it; I'd be flattered that they wanted to.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Week 1 used game sales are MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than piracy. I've had discussions with CEOs about it and even they admit it, but they refuse to speak up about it because it may ruin relations with retailers, who are already difficult to deal with as it is.

Used game sales are no "problem" at all, these CEOs are fucking crybabies.

If you don't like used game sales, your job as a publisher is to put out games that people don't want to trade in so goddamn fast.

 

[Datschge]

Getting slightly off topic...

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

Makes me wonder why major publishers like EA, Activision, Nintendo etc. don't build their own games outlet chain which doesn't do used games.

 

[blu]

I'm an ex-dev too, actually. Was laid off last year. I think, deep down, devs really just want their games to be *played*; they want their hard work to be *enjoyed*. Certainly, if someone *genuinely* didn't have means to play a game legitimately, I wouldn't shed any tears if they pirated it; I'd be flattered that they wanted to.

That's the gamedev perspective. It looks quite different from the publisher's end ; )

(a former gamedev here too, btw)

 

[linkboy]

They can lynch me all they want.

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

The further it gets the less problematic it becomes - nobody cares about used games 3 or 4 months in, but the first few weeks are absolutely crucial, and places like Gamestop that put up copies the next day at a 5$ rebate are REALLY hurting us.

Can I just ask a couple of questions (don't what this go off onto a used game debate, we've had enough of those).

Has anyone in this industry (developer, publisher, whatever) actually asked themselves why people are trading games in within a week after purchasing them? Has anyone asked themselves where Gamestop (and other places) are getting those used copies for $5 less from (someone had to purchase the game new for it to be sold as used)?

To me, it looks like people in this industry are just looking at the effect and not the cause.

 

[spwolf]

That is why so many of us brought up the used game market in the other threads regarding Geohot and the jailbreak. Many here proclaim their first concern regarding Geohot going public with the keys is that it will have damage to the developers. When folks like myself and others brought up the used game market they basically said that its not the same.

I am happy that the used game market is still here (love Goozex but hate GS). If someone is going to state their first concern is developers than I don't understand how they cannot come out equally or even harder against the used game market.

retailers like gamestop make most of the money on used games... Publishers can legally ban used game sales, but that would mean retaliation from the retailers.

also i think that generally piracy is biggest issue in continental Europe where used games are not big problem, and vice versa.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Publishers can legally ban used game sales

How?

 

[The Faceless Master]

the #1 source of new game sales is also the #1 source of used game sales. people who buy used games subsidize the cost of people who buy new games. new videogame retail sales would drop across the board (hardware, software and accessories) if gamestop quit the used market.

 

[mre]

Obstruction of justice, son.

Obstruction of justice? There's a criminal case against Hotz as well? Dude is fucked.

 

[BritBloke916]

How?

Activation codes in the box, I suppose. They've been the curse of PC game retail for years.

 

[jaxword]

Activation codes in the box, I suppose. They've been the curse of PC game retail for years.

 

[Zoe]

Obstruction of justice? There's a criminal case against Hotz as well? Dude is fucked.

Contempt of court would be more apt.

 

[Pooya]

edit: nvm

 

[mre]

Contempt of court would be more apt.

Of course.

 

[Version 3.0]

The thing is, week-1 used sales are the worst thing in the industry right now because they are direct lost sales for developers and publishers.

That's bullshit. The only reason you think that is because it's visible. Week 1 lending between friends and family members is probably a bigger "problem", but it's not so visible. But that's even worse, because two (or more) people played your game and the first owner didn't even go back to buy another game with his trade-in money.

Speaking of which...as always, you ignore the flipside of this "problem". How many people who bought your game new did so with trade-in dollars?

But none of that really matters. What matters is that, damaging or not, re-selling our purchases is our right. You're a hypocrite for criticizing the practice in the first place.

 

[Melchiah]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011...social&utm_campaign=official_statement_021611

Official Statement Regarding PS3 Circumvention Devices and Pirated Software
Posted by Jeff Rubenstein // Social Media Manager

Today, Sony Computer Entertainment released the following statement:

Notice: Unauthorized circumvention devices for the PlayStation 3 system have been recently released by hackers. These devices permit the use of unauthorized or pirated software. Use of such devices or software violates the terms of the “System Software License Agreement for the PlayStation 3 System” and the “Terms of Services and User Agreement” for the PlayStation Network/Qriocity and its Community Code of Conduct provisions. Violation of the System Software Licence Agreement for the PlayStation 3 System invalidates the consumer guarantee for that system. In addition, copying or playing pirated software is a violation of International Copyright Laws. Consumers using circumvention devices or running unauthorized or pirated software will have access to the PlayStation Network and access to Qriocity services through PlayStation 3 system terminated permanently.

To avoid this, consumers must immediately cease use and remove all circumvention devices and delete all unauthorized or pirated software from their PlayStation 3 systems.

What this means to you

Circumvention devices and game piracy damage our industry and can potentially injure the online experience for you, our loyal PlayStation customers, via hacks and cheats.

Many PlayStation.Blog readers have asked how we intend to deal with these incidents that they have been reading about in the gaming press, and this is our initial response.

By identifying PlayStation 3 systems that breach our guidelines and terminating their ability to connect to PlayStation Network, we are protecting our business and preserving the honest gameplay experiences that you expect and deserve.

Rest assured, this message does not apply to the overwhelming majority of our users who enjoy the world of entertainment PlayStation 3 has to offer without breaching the guidelines detailed above, and we urge you to continue doing so without fear.

Seems like the ban-hammer is about to strike. =)

 

[Zoe]

^ That was originally posted in here but was split off to its own thread.

 

[Melchiah]

^ That was originally posted in here but was split off to its own thread.

Ah, sorry for the re-post.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Activation codes in the box, I suppose. They've been the curse of PC game retail for years.

That would be a great way to reduce new game sales far more than used games do.

 

[Massa]

How?

There's a ruling in their favor already. Publishers don't enforce it because they're afraid of Gamestop and losing sales from people who trade in games to buy new ones.

 

[phosphor112]

I'd love to have Phosphor and othees who agree with him respond to this dev and the other who believe the JB and homebrew are and should continue to be allowed. Afterall, mpst of the statements against it are basd on financial damage to devs while here we have 2 devs in favor with one stating used games are a bigger problem.

I still stand my ground, and I do think that second hand sales do hurt the industry as well. I never buy used games unless they are no longer available from the publisher. I don't think second hand sales should be banned, because it's someone selling their license to use the software. That alone won't open up any possible venues for piracy, so go ahead and do it.

That would be a great way to reduce new game sales far more than used games do.

A single use key would warrant a lower initial price. I have never bought a 60 dollar PC game. Why? Because it's horse shit. Why have the PC license different from the console versions? Both the same price, but one allows me to resell it? How does that make sense. I blame Activision for this trend in PC price hikes...

...

Oh, and one last thing, if your game is getting week 1 used game sales, don't blame the consumer or used game market, blame yourself (the developer) for having a shitty game. I always see like 50 COD's being returned in week one cuz some many prepubescent kids rage quit, breaking their controllers, and wanting to get rid of the POS of a game that is COD.

 

[Beer Monkey]

A single use key would warrant a lower initial price.

Warrant and actually happening are two different things.

 

[phosphor112]

Warrant and actually happening are two different things.

Lol, that's why I chose the words that I did. =P

 

[spwolf]

That's bullshit. The only reason you think that is because it's visible. Week 1 lending between friends and family members is probably a bigger "problem", but it's not so visible. But that's even worse, because two (or more) people played your game and the first owner didn't even go back to buy another game with his trade-in money.

Speaking of which...as always, you ignore the flipside of this "problem". How many people who bought your game new did so with trade-in dollars?

But none of that really matters. What matters is that, damaging or not, re-selling our purchases is our right. You're a hypocrite for criticizing the practice in the first place.

no, it is a problem because Gamestop makes hundreds of millions in revenue from used game sales...

and a lot of this happens within first few weeks the games our out - they offer used new game for $5 discount and people buy them...

If you are buying used game for $50, you would have bought it new for $60 too.... do thats directly lost sale for the publishers.

And in fact, courts have ruled that it is legal for software publishers to ban resale of their software in their licenses...
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/09...ne-Doesnt-Apply-To-Licensed-Software?from=rss