DangerMouse
Member
Oh okay.
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Sony: not every PSVR game playable with DS4; some require Move
- Thread starter Neuromancer
- Start date
Oh okay.
Zalusithix
Member
Except when the game design is explicitly incompatible with control via the DS4, which in the case of VR is entirely possible.
It's really not too far off from saying that a modern FPS should have an option to be controlled by an NES controller. From a controlling possibility perspective at least.
It's clear with threads like these that:
#1 Most people don't bother reading through any of the the thread before posting.
#2 Very few people understand the repercussions of a single decision on game design.
#3 Not many people took logic (or discrete math) class. Move &&(AND) DS4 != Move ||(OR) DS4.
I was really surprised to see them not do this. It makes so much sense to do so, and its beneficial for VR developers (and the industry) to know that tracked controllers is the default choice.
#1 Most people don't bother reading through any of the the thread before posting.
#2 Very few people understand the repercussions of a single decision on game design.
#3 Not many people took logic (or discrete math) class. Move &&(AND) DS4 != Move ||(OR) DS4.
I was really surprised to see them not do this. It makes so much sense to do so, and its beneficial for VR developers (and the industry) to know that tracked controllers is the default choice.
See my PS Move games link above, there are many games made with the 2 playable options (Move or DS).
Neuromancer
Member
They can fully realize their vision with the Move mode.
Well platform holders get to make a lot of decisions for their platform. My guess is Sony is trying to avoid customer confusion.
If every PS4 shipped with an NES controller you would almost have a point. Instead, like the Siri remote example, we are just making hypothetical situations that don't make sense here.
Tripolygon
Banned
Will Robinson which involves grappling and climbing with 2 hands work best with PS Move? Yes, but it has been adapted for DS4 and it is not any less an immersive experience for it.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
I think what I've learned with psvr threads is that everyone knows what's best for vr.
Are people in here deliberately ignoring the impact of this mandate on game design? What developer in their right mind would make a game with support for two extremely different input methods? Imagine playing Dance Central with a controller.
You are gonna get one-size-fits-all and you are damn well gonna like it.
You are gonna get one-size-fits-all and you are damn well gonna like it.
Grinchy
Banned
Job Simulator was the first thing I thought of. How could that possibly be playable with a controller?
And yeah this is a really dumb precedent to set. I hope this doesn't limit the motion-based games that can come to PSVR.
edit- holy shit this thread moved fast. Had it open in a tab and thought it was like 40 posts in
DangerMouse
Member
Agreed.
Zalusithix
Member
So one game extrapolates to everything? Tell me how you get a game like Space Pirate Trainer working with a controller. Or even Audioshield. I'm all ears.
Does it look like any of us here are arguing that the PSVR will have no games?
Neuromancer
Member
Why don't we wait until these games come out before we start acting like the sky is falling? Developers are smart people, I'm sure they will come up with a solution.
Maybe not 100%, but my guess is most will. Because people who bought OR got a gamepad. If developers focus on games that only use the motion controllers they will be cutting off a part of their audience which may not make good business sense.
So force developers to create two versions of their game, that in some cases could be pretty much entirely different games. That's fair and reasonable. Is Sony going to fund that for them? Provide them the extra man power so that those developers have to create an extra game they don't want to create?
It should be up to the developer if they want to design a game specifically around the capabilities the Move controller. And Sony did it before, they never mandated this with Move games pre-PSVR (and there is a great reason why. Hint: same one we're arguing for here).
If developers want to limit their audience and create a game just for those controllers, let them - unless you as a user want to force developers to only create games you like and want to play - which again, seems totally fair and reasonable.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Then maybe VR is not for them.
I believe some Devs will focus more making a game that's more suitable with the Move controller (ie: Tennis game), while other Devs will focus more on DS4 (ie: FF15).
Or more accurately, maybe certain specific VR games are not for them.
Neuromancer
Member
Hmm you make some good points here. I'll have to think about this.
Why is it a good idea to force those making the Tennis game to somehow make it playable using a DS4?
What would be the point in making a version of this game for controllers?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmaxmnPzMWE
The point of playing the game would be entirely different. As for the business argument: let the developer decide that for themselves.
Neuromancer
Member
That looks like a cool game but I don't see how it couldn't be played with a gamepad.
But, like I said above I see the points that you're making. It is more work for developers which sucks.
You are missing my point... If you see those games, 8 out of 10 games are playable with both Move and DS controllers.
You guys are just worrying too much... Sony isn't stupid. It's good that they let the players pick what they want to use. Not "ALL" VR games will be more enjoyable with the Move controller.
They said Vive is "the only one to get VR right." That doesn't mean all other VR headsets are hurting VR. Just missing a golden opportunity.
GuitarAtomik
Member
$10 says you will immediately wish you could use your hands the moment you play a first person game in VR.
EDIT:
I know this is going to sound like goalpost moving (and I guess technically it is lol) but I should clarify since I forgot this could mean something like Rigs. I mean any FPS you play where you would logically have hands and use them. So like RE7, or The Assembly, or Job Simulator, etc.
Literally no one is claiming that.
What people are claiming (and with very good reasoning as far as I am concerned) is that there is a wealth of VR experiences which require 2 tracked points in the design space, and that mandating DS4 controls makes porting those to PSVR impossible (for no good reason).
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Can I get in on this I'll pm my PayPal Xp
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Admitedly, I have no experience with the game, but if it suffers on DS4, I can't imagine the situation being much better with Move. The occlusion would be less of a problem as you turn around, but again, I'm not sure how the game works.
I'm honestly trying to understand how one could even argue against this.
It could be adapted to be played with a gamepad after significant work and after losing a lot of the experience in the process (likening it to playing Virtua Cop on the Saturn without a light gun is being very kind), and Epic would be forced to do this to release on PS4.
My issue with the DS4 tracking was that I had a surprisingly small range of rotation with it. While the Move has to rely on IMU rotational info due to the basic ball tracking, at least the ball is always visible regardless of the controller's rotation. With the DS4, however, it was very easy to lose track of the controller with pitch alone. I was the usual VR demo distance away from the camera and resting my arms like I would during normal play, yet this still caused the controller to be out of range.
It could be that Battlezone's implementation relies solely on the camera and other games will do it with a combination of camera + IMUs, perhaps.
They are not forced lol, they can make game more enjoyable using the move controller. Using a DS4 will just be an option (maybe some players don't like to use a move controller to swing).
Ok, change my post to "Does it look like any of us here are arguing that the PSVR will have no Move supported games?",
The point is that any game that couldn't be played with a DS4 will simply not be on the list. If they mandated that every game for PSVR were able to be played without one, then you would still be able to point to a list of games like Gran Turismo Sport, Ace Combat 7, Rez, Resident Evil 7 and the like as offering the ability to play with both the PSVR or without... however that wouldn't mean that there aren't also games that are now absent from that list because they simply wouldn't work on a TV, or have been altered from their original design to ensure that they would.
Haha, this was basically me. I have a post (maybe multiple) floating around in the past somewhere whilst discussing Rift and Vive, where I was saying that I was mostly interested in cockpit games for VR, and wasn't too fussed about roomscale and all that stuff. Actually using VR for a while changed that shit pretty fast.
Neuromancer
Member
What if you could use a regular Saturn controller because that controller had positional motion tracking?
Yes. It could be played, but the point of playing the game would be different. it'd be a different game and why should developers be forced to make two games, 1 game the developer wanted to make, and 1 game the developer didn't want to make but were forced to.
The point of that game is shooting guns with the tracked controllers, if you remove the tracked controllers what do you have?
AudioEppa
Member
I have a pretty negative outlook for VR, it's changed a little bit after the showcase from their last E3 show, but one of my problems was that I used to own ps move because I felt the hyped from Sony, well more like Kevin Butler lol.. Anyway I sold it and I don't want to buy it again, so the fact that I can use my controller puts more positivity in that direction of actually buying one. Still probably won't, but at least I'll know I wouldn't be forced to use something I don't want to use. I'm mentally wired and satisfied what using a controller, especially the ds4.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I know this is going to sound like goalpost moving (and I guess technically it is lol) but I should clarify since I forgot this could mean something like Rigs. I mean any FPS you play where you would logically have hands and use them. So like RE7, or The Assembly, or Job Simulator, etc.
Zalusithix
Member
Lots of people that have never used VR, or in the very least never used tracked controllers in VR, and are bringing traditional gaming misconceptions in. A controller is a controller right? Just change what buttons you push!
*shakes head*
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Lol cheater! Ive played job simulator on vive so I'll prefer motion controllers I'll for sure try it witha. Controller just to see what they come up with first before writing it off tho of course. Re7 for sure controller tho
If adapting a game that requires tracked motion controllers to a traditional gamepad was an easy thing why don't more of those 177 on Steam do so so for all the potential Oculus Rift customers? Hint: it's not a simple and straightforward thing, and in some cases, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, would severely compromise the gameplay.
You can be ambivalent about this decision if you only care about controller experiences. Which is fine. For anyone looking forward to games using tracked controllers though, this is not a good thing, and it will limit the amount of quality content.
You can be ambivalent about this decision if you only care about controller experiences. Which is fine. For anyone looking forward to games using tracked controllers though, this is not a good thing, and it will limit the amount of quality content.
CarbonFire
Member
I get why Sony would mandate this, but this is not great decision for pushing VR forward. Using only the DS4 IS doable for most hand-tracked games, but it would be a vastly inferior experience in most cases and puts a large strain on developers (especially smaller ones) to essentially design two different games.
Can't imagine games like Audio Shield being remotely as fun with a DS4 as it is with hand controllers.
Can't imagine games like Audio Shield being remotely as fun with a DS4 as it is with hand controllers.
Let's try this again;
The benefit of using two Move controllers is that you can have two independent points of tracking. Say, a gun game that lets you shoot in two different directions with each hand.
That's really cool, and opens up a lot of possibilities for interesting games. But now a game can't be developed solely around those new mechanics, because it's tethered to the Dualshock. So at some point the games will be limited, because they always need to develop around the possibility that the player only has one tracking point.
That doesn't mean awesome games won't come out, but since it's hobbling one of the core facets of immersive VR, yes it will absolutely limit the kinds of games we see.
There's no way to know how many games requiring two Move controllers we would have ever seen. Probably not that many, considering the fractured audience it caters to. But still, there will absolutely be ports of at least some Vive games that PSVR will never see now.
Tripolygon
Banned
You do realize DS4 is tracked right?Vive:
DS4:
This was in response to the people saying they don't want to wave their hands around like idiots.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Edit:nvm. Enjoy vr folks!
This
Thanks for the option Sony. Rather aim with my thumb than my whole hand any day.