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Sony patent hints at 3D stacked chips with dual heatsink

iHaunter

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Seriously Sony, how hard can it be:


Their engineers are a lot smarter than you. :)

And myself for that matter, so let's agree that they know what they're doing yes?
 
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longdi

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Painted it to better see what is what.

green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing

Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.

neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.


I believe PS5 will have the same PCI lanes as Ryzen 3. 16 to gpu, 4 to the integrated ssd and 4 to the rest+ssd expansion.

Btw is 1 also the heatsink? Dont seem like it. The heatsink is just 21. Not sure it is enough though.
 

onQ123

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Now it seems more clear to me. That means with one fan they can cool all those components pretty evenly and effectively. I can see why Sony would go with a different cooling system..

If the other chips are closer to the main chip the data will be closer to the chip & use less power to move the data around & you will get better performance.
 

Dontero

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I believe PS5 will have the same PCI lanes as Ryzen 3. 16 to gpu, 4 to the integrated ssd and 4 to the rest+ssd expansion.

Btw is 1 also the heatsink? Dont seem like it. The heatsink is just 21. Not sure it is enough though.

It is clearly custom chip. Which means they can play with PCI lanes as much as they want and you shouldn't use Ryzen3 as base.

Yes 1 is heatsink but general. MEaning it could be heatsink with fan or some other design but point is that it will be cooling chip from top.
 

DESTROYA

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Ingenious if it works without sounding loud, SONY did state they have worked extensively on the cooling design stating it won’t just be something slapped together. It looks like they put a lot of time engineering this to sustain high GPU loads.
 

Agnostic2020

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I believe PS5 will have the same PCI lanes as Ryzen 3. 16 to gpu, 4 to the integrated ssd and 4 to the rest+ssd expansion.

Btw is 1 also the heatsink? Dont seem like it. The heatsink is just 21. Not sure it is enough though.

From patent:

" 1, another heat dissipation device may be arranged on the upper surface of the integrated circuit device 5. By doing so, two heat dissipation devices are provided in the integrated circuit device 5, so that the cooling performance can be improved."
 

Agnostic2020

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Oct 24, 2017
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Painted it to better see what is what.

green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing

Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.

neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.

Great Post. Maybe O onQ123 can add it to op ?
 

DJ Shalad

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The image is most likely not to scale 1:1, but based on this image the PS5 is going to be a slim console, where only the BDrom will eat up most of the thinkness.

Add a fan 25mm on top of the heatsink and it seems well below, within the 10cm mark? A similar approach like with the PS2 case. Rather small upper part with a fat booty due heatsink, fan and 4K Drive.
 
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onQ123

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I believe PS5 will have the same PCI lanes as Ryzen 3. 16 to gpu, 4 to the integrated ssd and 4 to the rest+ssd expansion.

Btw is 1 also the heatsink? Dont seem like it. The heatsink is just 21. Not sure it is enough though.

From the patent it's another part of the console like the wifi chip & so on that can be placed there like a heatsink but it can also be another heatsink in that place for better cooling


[0019] This structure of the electronic equipment 1 eliminates the need for a space for a heat radiating apparatus on the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5 as illustrated in FIG. 1, thus making it possible to dispose another component 9 (e.g., a transmission/reception module with an antenna and so on, a sensor, an external storage apparatus) of the electronic equipment 1 on the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5 and ensuring a higher degree of freedom in laying out the component 9. In the example of the electronic equipment 1, the component 9 is disposed on the opposite side of the heatsink 21 with the circuit board 10 and the integrated circuit apparatus 5 provided therebetween. That is, the component 9 is disposed close to the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5. Specifically, a distance L1 between the component 9 and the integrated circuit apparatus 5 is smaller than a height H1 of the heatsink 21. Unlike the example of the electronic equipment 1, another heat radiating apparatus may be provided on the upper surface of the integrated circuit apparatus 5. As a result, two heat radiating apparatuses are provided on the integrated circuit apparatus 5, thus providing improved cooling performance.
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
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Painted it to better see what is what.

green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing

Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.

neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.



Nice but you should probably use the updated image where it's a 9 instead of 1 , it's basically another board with the Wifi chip & SSD on it & able to have another heatsink on top of it




[0019] This structure of the electronic equipment 1 eliminates the need for a space for a heat radiating apparatus on the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5 as illustrated in FIG. 1, thus making it possible to dispose another component 9 (e.g., a transmission/reception module with an antenna and so on, a sensor, an external storage apparatus) of the electronic equipment 1 on the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5 and ensuring a higher degree of freedom in laying out the component 9. In the example of the electronic equipment 1, the component 9 is disposed on the opposite side of the heatsink 21 with the circuit board 10 and the integrated circuit apparatus 5 provided therebetween. That is, the component 9 is disposed close to the upper side of the integrated circuit apparatus 5. Specifically, a distance L1 between the component 9 and the integrated circuit apparatus 5 is smaller than a height H1 of the heatsink 21. Unlike the example of the electronic equipment 1, another heat radiating apparatus may be provided on the upper surface of the integrated circuit apparatus 5. As a result, two heat radiating apparatuses are provided on the integrated circuit apparatus 5, thus providing improved cooling performance.



 

Dontero

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The image is most likely not to scale 1:1, but based on this image the PS5 is going to be a slim console, where only the BDrom will eat up most of the thinkness.

Add a fan 25mm on top of the heatsink and it seems well below, within the 10cm mark? A similar approach like with the PS2 case. Rather small upper part with a fat booty due heatsink, fan and 4K Drive.

It is not 1:1, just general design. I also wouldn't say that it will be slim console based on that patent. To me it screams that they have issues with managing heat from their highly clocked chip and they had to get innovative to cool chip from both sides not just like in tradition from one side.

AMD doesn't have right now any GPU that runs above 2Ghz and those who run near 2Ghz have heatsinks nearly as big as half of PS4 size. If anything it says that console will be thick. Both sides cooling definitely is neat design and pretty innovative but generally speaking if you look at something like SEX there isn't any free space and yet it is pretty big.

I wouldn't be shocked if PS5 will be the size of SEX volume wise.


Nice but you should probably use the updated image where it's a 9 instead of 1 , it's basically another board with the Wifi chip & SSD on it & able to have another heatsink on top of it

That is just general patent not strict design. That upper board is basically whatever to have context for heat-sink design. For 100% there will be heatsink on top of that chip because otherwise using heatsink on other side of PSB wouldn't make any sense. Heatsink on other side of PCB also won't be able to cool properly whole chip which means that heatisink on top of chip will be bigger than that on other side of PCB. Thus why i didn't use 9 as cue for orange block on top of chip.
 
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Dontero

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Correct me, but this patent is because Sony wants to keep the device thin.

Using one heatsink to cool 2 IC on opposite sides of the pcb. They drilled a hole somewhere in the middle and connect heatpipes to the main heatsink. You know something like them bugs bunny cartoon, where he drilled throug the globe and reach the other side of the world.

Doesnt feels it can keep the 2.13ghz cool though.

You don't get things slimmer by adding second cooler on other side of PCB. It is the opposite. Also you don't use secondary cooler if you really don't need it. Which means chips is running hot and they had to get creative to cool it.

Imho key here is that they will be using 3D stacking. 3D chips should be way harder to cool as you have stacked furnaces generating heat instead of one.
 

Bladed Thesis

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Very intrigued by this after reading up on it. I'm loving the customization and tech put into the PS5 so far that we've seen. I eagerly await breakdown videos too so better tech minds than myself can really dig in and show us what we've got in the PS5,

Exciting times.
 

Shakka43

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A shot for every time "apparatus" gets mentioned in OP's quote and you will end up drunk.
 

Hendrick's

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Painted it to better see what is what.

green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing

Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.

neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.

The chip is directly soldered to the PCB. BGA with center land for heat dissipation.
 
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phil_t98

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is this over complicating something that doesn't need over complicating? why are traditional cooling methods not good enough for this?
 

Dontero

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The chip is directly soldered to the PCB. BGA with center land for heat dissipation.

Yes and no. It is soldnered at outer rims to PCB but central part is soldnered to heatplate. Otherwise heatpipes wouldn't work correctly.

is this over complicating something that doesn't need over complicating? why are traditional cooling methods not good enough for this?

Because it runs hot.
 
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phil_t98

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Maybe it does or maybe Cerny wanted have heat controlled by voltage and this was the best way to accommodate that? I really dont know or have insight im just speculating.
Just seems a bit strange, wonder if it will be super quiet this way as we know ps4 was super loud at times
 

mckmas8808

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You take posts way too seriously... They don't have to reinvent the wheel, like it seems they are doing, just put a big heatsink on top of the APU, big fan that will move the air, put some decent vents on the case, monitor the APU's temperature, and there you go, a simple, cheap and efficient cooling.

Why don't you go build a new console and sell it? Since you're so smart.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Is there any indication that this is for PlayStation?

I'm big into Sony mirrorless cameras, and they have been doing a lot of stacked CMOS sensor+processor chips since around 2017. Heat dissipation is a big problem in mirrorless cameras with typically smaller bodies than DSLRs, so I have a feeling this might be more for that kind of use case.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
47,861
15,118
2,000
Painted it to better see what is what.

green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing

Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.

neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.


Thank you for this colored version.

is it running to hot that traditional cooling methods won't work?

Do you want traditional cooling methods? If so why?
 
Last edited:

Ar¢tos

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You take posts way too seriously... They don't have to reinvent the wheel, like it seems they are doing, just put a big heatsink on top of the APU, big fan that will move the air, put some decent vents on the case, monitor the APU's temperature, and there you go, a simple, cheap and efficient cooling.
If humanity wasn't constantly reinventing and improving things we would still be riding horses instead of driving cars. Is that what you want?
What's wrong with having new ideas?
Registering a patent doesn't mean it will ever be used or where it will be used, this might not be for a console, Sony makes a lot of other devices.
 

Dontero

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I wounder if the stacked chip is the onboard RAM?

If anything it is cache and I/O. Cache is one of the things that doesn't want to easily scale down. So probably they will use main chip at 7nm with cpu and gpu and separate chip maybe at 12nm with I/O and cache