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[mckmas8808]

Then you're discriminating based on race, something that has 0 to do with the job.

When two people with similar skill apply for a job you see which one has more experience, which one has skills that best complement the team they'll be working one, not wich one will make the color gradient more complete.

How is it discrimination when the two people are equally qualified?

 

[RedVIper]

How is it discrimination when the two people are equally qualified?

I explained why in my post.

You're not choosing based on any skill, or which one you think will make the team the best it can be. You're choosing your candidates based on the color of their skin, which mean however doesn't have your prefered color of skin is being discriminated against.

 

[lock2k]

This is what matters. This is all I see when I look at someone.

The color of the skin, the background? Screw that. There are brilliant brains everywhere (and stupid ones too).

 

[Blancka]

First of all we do not know if a more diverse team is what made Mass Effect Andromeda a bad game. Where did you get that from? What research or journalist did you see that found out that information? And 2nd, diversity shouldn't be about quotas or meeting some made up BS number for the "right" amount of black people or women. It's giving people of all shades, genders, ideas, etc an equal shot. And also about going out of your way to getting that difference. Top management shouldn't be trying to hit a number.

Yeah, people have had an "equal shot" for years now in most developed countries. We've had laws in place for years to prevent systematic racism, sexism, ageism etc. The issue is, you can't so much as take a group photo of a team of workers these days without being called racist for not having 2 or 3 token foreigners. This is a genuine issue in many industries. Hell, in the past when I used to work call centres it wasn't rare that I'd see a great interview candidate not get the job, meanwhile someone with a barely comprehensible accent gets the job to hit the diversity quota here (not bashing accents here, but when your job is to talk on the phone, being clearly understandable to the natives over an already poor quality phone call is pretty much the only needed skill).

Give it a few years. The backlash has already begun (brexit and trump for example, never would have been voted in without anger towards the PC and SJW crowd), and it'll pick up steam when white people realise that they too can be victims of racism and discrimination. Diversity shouldn't be about quotas, but it is at this point, and the only people suffering aren't the racists, or those who discriminate; it's the hard workers who earn their qualifications and happen to have the audacity to decide they want to live and work in the country they were born in. Insanity...

 

[Blancka]

Then me and you are reading the same statement differently. I didn't take Sony saying this to mean it's their NUMBER ONE concern. They are just putting "an" emphasis on it. It's "a" priority, not the number one priority. And I can assure you I'm not persecuted at all. Don't pull that bullshit on me. Any person that has a principled opposition to diversity has a bad agenda and just isn't smart, because diversity in of itself isn't bad. It "CAN" be if it's the number one priority, but where do you see that happening?

There are zero issues with diversity, because diversity can come in many stripes. It doesn't just have to be about black and white (race).

There are many issues with diversity, because in a meritocracy, diversity shouldn't be considered. You're either the best candidate or you're not. Laws have been in place for years in most developed countries to keep racial discrimination out of the employment process. Now those laws are being averted and nobody cares because being white is apparently a superpower even if it leaves you jobless

 

[Boss Mog]

How is it discrimination when the two people are equally qualified?

If two people are equally qualified and you're saying you should automatically pick the non-white person for diversity's sake, how is that not discrimination?

If two people of different races or genders were equally qualified for a job I was hiring for I would never let race or gender influence my decision. I would ask them questions and give them hypothetical workplace scenarios and make my pick by choosing the person that gave the best answers.

 

[mckmas8808]

I explained why in my post.

You're not choosing based on any skill, or which one you think will make the team the best it can be. You're choosing your candidates based on the color of their skin, which mean however doesn't have your prefered color of skin is being discriminated against.

Sometimes picking a candidate isn't "ONLY and ALL" about skill. Team fit matters. Also so does background (that's not just "work experience"). If two people are equally skilled there are many other things that go into play when it comes to choosing your next new hire. None of this is new.

If two people are equally qualified and you're saying you should automatically pick the non-white person for diversity's sake, how is that not discrimination?

If two people of different races or genders were equally qualified for a job I was hiring for I would never let race or gender influence my decision. I would ask them questions and give them hypothetical workplace scenarios and make my pick by choosing the person that gave the best answers.

I see the problem some of you have with diversity now. You see this as a means to take away from "white men" instead of a normal "addition" to the workforce that is also openly gay, an immigrant, or someone that thinks totally differently from the team.

When I say diversity, I mean it in the fullest scope. Not just race. That's the dumb\boring way to talk about diversity.

Yeah, people have had an "equal shot" for years now in most developed countries. We've had laws in place for years to prevent systematic racism, sexism, ageism etc. The issue is, you can't so much as take a group photo of a team of workers these days without being called racist for not having 2 or 3 token foreigners. This is a genuine issue in many industries. Hell, in the past when I used to work call centres it wasn't rare that I'd see a great interview candidate not get the job, meanwhile someone with a barely comprehensible accent gets the job to hit the diversity quota here (not bashing accents here, but when your job is to talk on the phone, being clearly understandable to the natives over an already poor quality phone call is pretty much the only needed skill).

Were those people in the call centers that got the job over the "natural English speaking people" selected because they were offshore and cost less money to hire?

 

[RedVIper]

Sometimes picking a candidate isn't "ONLY and ALL" about skill. Team fit matters. Also so does background (that's not just "work experience"). If two people are equally skilled there are many other things that go into play when it comes to choosing your next new hire. None of this is new.



I see the problem some of you have with diversity now. You see this as a means to take away from "white men" instead of a normal "addition" to the workforce that is also openly gay, an immigrant, or someone that thinks totally differently from the team.

When I say diversity, I mean it in the fullest scope. Not just race. That's the dumb\boring way to talk about diversity.

And has I've already yd stated, race, sexuality or country of origin should not be a factor when deciding who the best candidate should be.

I have a problem with diversity in so far as I don't think it should be a factor when deciding who gets the job, who gets the grant or who gets to go to college.

Also your notion that my problem is that it takes from "the white man", os laughable, since I consider it a problem whether is happens in the US, Europe, China, Africa or any other place.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Where does the arse fat end and the back fat begin?

I know what cankles are, but what even is this? Backcrack?

 

[mckmas8808]

And has I've already yd stated, race, sexuality or country of origin should not be a factor when deciding who the best candidate should be.

I have a problem with diversity in so far as I don't think it should be a factor when deciding who gets the job, who gets the grant or who gets to go to college.

Also your notion that my problem is that it takes from "the white man", os laughable, since I consider it a problem whether is happens in the US, Europe, China, Africa or any other place.

It's okay that we disagree with diversity and if it should matter or not. But what do you think we as a society should do about people already getting jobs that we know they didn't deserve due to nepotism and/or having the right "connections" (some people call that last part "networking")?

 

[Xaero Gravity]

Why is it impossible for you to believe they are hiring the smartest people for the job? Maybe they also happen to be diverse too. Or maybe it's probably because you don't think diverse groups can be as smart or smarter than a mostly white male group?

Yeah that's clearly what I meant

Don't fucking come at me with such bullshit, unwarranted, and unfair accusations, especially when I have done absolutely nothing to receive this kind of bullshit.

 

[KonradLaw]

Indeed. I mean..look at Witcher 3, ,Sekiro or Yakuza series. They turned out so badly because the teams lacked diversity.

 

[Bogey]

Wait. If white actors playing characters of different ethnicities is white washing.. Isn't a team of Americans making a game in a Japanese setting just the same then?

Should I be delighted with joy of cultural diversity, or disgusted by the racism that is cultural appropriation and white washing? I'm confused, there are so many rules!

 

[Grinchy]

Wait. If white actors playing characters of different ethnicities is white washing.. Isn't a team of Americans making a game in a Japanese setting just the same then?

Should I be delighted with joy of cultural diversity, or disgusted by the racism that is cultural appropriation and white washing? I'm confused, there are so many rules!

I think we all know the reality - if a white person does anything that deals with a race that's "below" it, then there's an opportunity to fill the daily outrage quota.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'll make it simple for you.

This dude...

...probably knows more about Egyptian history and culture than this dude...

You know why? Because one is a famous archaeologist with a vested interest in Egyptology, the other is a fat neck-bearded rapper with no interest in culture at all.
If you were to make a game like Assassin's Creed: Origins, who would you rather have on your team, the expert or the diversity hire? Be honest...

Give me the first guy. But why are you acting as if having a diverse roster of employees within your team means you AREN'T hiring the best people? And DJ Khaled is not a rapper. He's a hip-hop producer. Why would you expect Sony to be doing the equivalent of hiring a hip-hop producer to make a game about Egyptian history, instead of hiring an actual Egyptologist?

Yeah that's clearly what I meant

Don't fucking come at me with such bullshit, unwarranted, and unfair accusations, especially when I have done absolutely nothing to receive this kind of bullshit.

You were the one that started it all with the bullshit question. As if.......

 

[RedVIper]

It's okay that we disagree with diversity and if it should matter or not. But what do you think we as a society should do about people already getting jobs that we know they didn't deserve due to nepotism and/or having the right "connections" (some people call that last part "networking")?

I think it's completely irrelevant to the discussion we're having.

 

[Salvatron]

Just make a good game and treat your workers fairly.

 

[CyberPanda]

Just make a good game and treat your workers fairly.

Naw. These companies love identity politics, it’s all so tiresome.

 

[Salvatron]

Naw. These companies love identity politics, it’s all so tiresome.

As a consumer, I guess the thing is.. I don't really care about the laborforce demographics of a studio. Shawn Layden's major point is that with a diverse workforce, you'll have a diversity of ideas/ways of thinking about things. He explicitly remarks on this "Grow your company with an eye towards fostering creativity and inclusivity. These things are inextricably linked. "
But I don't believe that the bounds of creativity are expanded or limited by whether or not your workforce meets a certain level demographic diversity.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

He explicitly remarks on this "Grow your company with an eye towards fostering creativity and inclusivity. These things are inextricably linked. "
But I don't believe that the bounds of creativity are expanded or limited by whether or not your workforce meets a certain level demographic diversity.

you need to read it through the lens of PR BS. they do seem quite linked to corporate growth. look at how well Marvel and Disney have done by promoting social justice. look at how the market punishes and deplatforms those that go the opposite way. he is stating a business truth in 2019. feel like the word "creativity" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. some might think it means some level or quality of artistic expression, he could be using it literally, as in "us coming out and saying we support diversity helps us create more product" which is very true in the business sense.

the article in the OP finds him stretching to justify his points as well. the only example of Sony following this advice is:

"The Media Molecule team is now roughly one-third female, but this has required a conscious effort and greater outreach, from being more experimental with recruitment and welcoming more interns and even young school groups," Layden said, noting that the studio partnered with Girls Make Games to have a Dreams game development workshop recently.

so they had to struggle to get 1/3rd female in one of 13 studios and that is held up as a win.

again, it's just corporate PR BS.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think it's completely irrelevant to the discussion we're having.

Of course you would feel that way. And we're back to solving nothing. It's weird to think wanting a diverse team is discriminatory, yet not want to speak on "KNOWN" actual discrimination and nepotism that's been occurring for decades.

 

[RedVIper]

Of course you would feel that way. And we're back to solving nothing. It's weird to think wanting a diverse team is discriminatory, yet not want to speak on "KNOWN" actual discrimination and nepotism that's been occurring for decades.

You tried to completely changed subjects after completely ignoring everything I said on what I think about diversity affecting hiring policies.
You simply said "I disagree".

Now you're trying to accuse me of something because I told you to fuck off after you tried to change the subject to nepotism.

Want my opinion on nepotism in how it relates to the subject at hand? It doesn't. Considering diversity when hiring someone has jack shit to do with nepotism, someone who was going to hire their cousin isn't going to stop and go, "Yeah I was going to hire my japanese cousin, but he's japanese, so instead I'm going to hire mckmas8808."

So yeah if you want to discuss the topic go to my previous reply and answer, if you want to discuss nepotism make a topic about it, don't try to change subjects.

 

[Eiknarf]

Of course you would feel that way. And we're back to solving nothing. It's weird to think wanting a diverse team is discriminatory, yet not want to speak on "KNOWN" actual discrimination and nepotism that's been occurring for decades.

My problem isn’t with you nor what you’re saying- My problem is with what most folks who are on your side of this say and do.

Like when the SJWs on your side want and demand diversity, so much so that they want, demand and gush over a black Honeymooners or a black Karate Kid or a female Oceans 11 or the changing the new Beauty and the Beast to include blacks, Asians, gays, and transgender people...etc. That’s all fine and dandy. So why is it ok to change all those, but the same SJWs on your side flipped out and said it was inappropriate to use a Western actor (Scarlet Johansson) in Ghost in a Shell!? Hypocrisy much!!?

Scarlet was the best for the job. Big name actress who can act. And nowhere in the original story is the character she’s playing Asian. Yet your kind demanded an Asian play that character!

 

[Shmunter]

My problem isn’t with you nor what you’re saying- My problem is with what most folks who are on your side of this say and do.

Like when the SJWs on your side want and demand diversity, so much so that they want, demand and gush over a black Honeymooners or a black Karate Kid or a female Oceans 11 or the changing the new Beauty and the Beast to include blacks, Asians, gays, and transgender people...etc. That’s all fine and dandy. So why is it ok to change all those, but the same SJWs on your side flipped out and said it was inappropriate to use a Western actor (Scarlet Johansson) in Ghost in a Shell!? Hypocrisy much!!?

Scarlet was the best for the job. Big name actress who can act. And nowhere in the original story is the character she’s playing Asian. Yet your kind demanded an Asian play that character!

Scarlet Johansson was also going to play a transgender role in some movie. Of course she got chased out of town for daring to take on a role that she is not entitled to. The demand was for a trans to play the role. Of course a movie that could have exposed people to the plight of trans people via star power will no longer do so. The wisdom of it all.

 

[Da-Kid]

Why do these things upset people?

 

[FranXico]

Or maybe it's probably because you don't think diverse groups can be as smart or smarter than a mostly white male group?

Did you NOT read my post? I was asking questions. I didn't accuse him of actually thinking it.

When you say that someone is probably thinking something, you are insinuating that they do, rethorical question or not. You are not just asking a question.
Be better.

Nobody here is against diversity in and of itself. People are against it being used as a PR talking point, and find it silly if companies start prioritizing it just for the sake of it, when it should come about naturally in a prejudice free environment.

 

[Blancka]

Were those people in the call centers that got the job over the "natural English speaking people" selected because they were offshore and cost less money to hire?

Nope, working in the same Irish call centre's as me. Literally sat within talking distance to me, so I could literally hear their struggle when customers had no idea what they were saying due to their partially broken english and thick accents. I'm not an idiot or a racist. These are genuine scenarios of racism that I've seen, that nobody takes notice of because many people have the mindset that racism against natives is impossible anywhere. They get paid the same to perform the same job for worse than a native speaker (in one case the job was literally entirely scripted, with maybe about 5% of the call allowing you to go off script. And I mean word for word scripted. Speaking clearly was literally the only thing you needed to do in the job for most calls).

What you say about diversity in the fullest scope is irrelevant in most jobs. It's not highly paid managers, site directors etc that get diversity hires in the vast majority of cases. It's bottom tier entry level employees who have no impact whatsoever on how the business is run. Different ideas or ways of think don't matter at that level because it's people hired to carry out menial tasks to a specific process step by step.

I get what you're saying. In an ideal world diversity is beneficial to a degree, but we don't live in an ideal world, and that won't ever be a reality in likelihood. Plus individuality does exist. Plenty of people grew up in the same small village I did and went to the same school as me, but have led entirely different lives to me, even during those school days. Same background does not equate to same thought process and it's still discriminatory to hire based on background because of that, race or not. Qualifications and interview should be the only things that matter in getting a job. Nobody should lose out on a job because they already have someone from the same town, financial class or they had two parents growing up. Qualifications, experience and interviews are both in control of the individual. Non controlled factors (background, ethnicity, etc shouldn't play a part whatsoever because regardless of criteria, disqualifying someone for a factor out of their control when they meet all the job criteria is discrimination. Plain and simple

 

[llien]

Sorry guys, but "diversity is important" is an euphemism for "we'll hire based on race/gender/nationality over merit".

Interesting stats:

Apparently "something" has happened between 2010 and 2015, what was that?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sorry guys, but "diversity is important" is an euphemism for "we'll hire based on race/gender/nationality over merit".

Interesting stats:

Apparently "something" has happened between 2010 and 2015, what was that?

Hence big public corporations with super strong U.S. presence pivoting on this matter... MS, Sony, Google, etc...

 

[DeeDogg_]

Really had such a huge impact the last 40 years of gaming didnt it Shawn? can this fad be over already?

 

[Eiknarf]

Scarlet Johansson was also going to play a transgender role in some movie. Of course she got chased out of town for daring to take on a role that she is not entitled to. The demand was for a trans to play the role. Of course a movie that could have exposed people to the plight of trans people via star power will no longer do so. The wisdom of it all.

Exactly!!

See? Why can’t Scarlet play a trans person? The whole point of acting is to play characters that aren’t you! Isn’t that why they win Grammy Awards!?!

Does Wesley Snipes have to be a real life baseball player in order to play a character who is a baseball player?! No!

Does Robert DeNiro have to really kill people and be in the mob in order to play a character in Goodfellas!?! No!

I hated that the 2016 TV Version of THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW just HAD TO have an actual trans person play the trans character Frank-n-furter!
Why? I thought the SJWs were all about diversity!?! No wonder it sucked. It was much better when straight actor Tim Curry portrayed the trans character

 

[cireza]

Because you look like someone does not mean that you understand this person.

 

[NickFire]

I don't think saying they want the development team to look like the fans is any sort of virtue signalling. It sounds more like fake virtue signalling to me,

 

[Mihos]

I am applying to be the first diversity hire for the Wu Tang Clan. I have Remedy giving me a reference