I was a little dubious at the thread title, but in the context of all he said I didn't find anything wrong with the sentiment. Shockingly, people with diffetent cultural backgrounds and thus perspective often look different. It's PR, sure, but no reason to be so cynically dismissive about the actual sentiment unless one can't differentiate between extreme leftism vs clear common sense.
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Sony's Shawn Layden emphasizes diverse teams; "it's important our development teams look like our fans"
- Thread starter DunDunDunpachi
- Start date
klosos
Member
Honestly i don't do Social media ,or visit many gaming websites anymore so 99% of the time i am completely oblivious to the colour of skin or faith or gender of the designers of the video games i enjoy. also i thought most big game studios will have people from different backgrounds ? considering most big budget devs , Rockstar , CD Project , Ubisoft so on will have 300+ developers working on a game they all cant look and sound the same.
So it stays the same to me if your games good then its good if its bad then its bad end of story.
So it stays the same to me if your games good then its good if its bad then its bad end of story.
Ellery
Member
What I meant was more like "I am not going to buy a game simply because they proudly present themselves to be XX% female or XX% people of certain backgrounds". I agree my wording wasn't perfect.
I didn't care for the last 26 years of me playing video games. I don't even remember it to be a thing that needed to be publicly said.
If they can hire people from different backgrounds with new perspectives that are skilled and talented and correctly positioned in that job -> sure go ahead.
In the end good games get my money, bad games won't. It is as simple as that. It always has been and will be that way.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I see what he’s saying, but I care more about the worker’s talent and skills more than how they look.
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mejin
Member
any reasonable person should think like this.
but merit is overrated nowadays. it's all about quotas.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yucca Farming Simulator, coming soon!
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Diverse creators make for better products.
Just like more diverse scientists make for better science.
www.nature.com
Just like more diverse scientists make for better science.
Science benefits from diversity
Improving the participation of under-represented groups is not just fairer — it could produce better research.
www.nature.com
zenspider
Member
I get the sentiment - and that it's PR bullshit - but it still makes no sense to me.
Should the chef look like the patron? Should the author look like the reader? Why? This bullshit story that only people who look like each other can relate to each other has to go.
Development teams should be diverse because more and more people want to make games and the tools and opportunites are more available - not some strange symmetry where none need exist.
Besides, I want to the people who make my games to look like this:
Should the chef look like the patron? Should the author look like the reader? Why? This bullshit story that only people who look like each other can relate to each other has to go.
Development teams should be diverse because more and more people want to make games and the tools and opportunites are more available - not some strange symmetry where none need exist.
Besides, I want to the people who make my games to look like this:
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GreenAlien
Member
So.. headhunting the best talents from around the world leads to better results than limiting yourself to your local "talents"? Surprise.Diverse creators make for better products.
Just like more diverse scientists make for better science.
Science benefits from diversity
Improving the participation of under-represented groups is not just fairer — it could produce better research.
How they arrive at "it's all thanks to diversity" is a bit mysterious to me.
Well, they are not completely ignorant of that either, since "Correlation is not causation." is even pointed out at the end of the study..
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zenspider
Member
Diverse creators make for better products.
Just like more diverse scientists make for better science.
Science benefits from diversity
Improving the participation of under-represented groups is not just fairer — it could produce better research.
But here we have a problem of definitions. Diverse perspectives should make for better problem solving, and that is mapping less and less to diversity in gender and ethnicity as society strives toward equality (which is net positive) and today's hypermedia homogenizes our opinions (which is not great).
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spandexmonkey
Banned
Diverse creators make for better products.
Just like more diverse scientists make for better science.
Science benefits from diversity
Improving the participation of under-represented groups is not just fairer — it could produce better research.
Linking opinion as fact? Even the study they quote has to contort to try and spin it as a win for diversity:
Hah, their methodology section is a joke:
"We didn't prove anything, but we FEEL like we did"
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I'm scared of debating so I try to paint everyone I'm debating with as evil, and myself as virtuous. I have now banned for this for shitting up most threads I participate in. Please look for a screencap of me crying in the Reset thread shortly.
Geez, people. How can an article y'all didn't even read trigger you so much?
The next few decades will be very though for you guys to handle when you have such problems with accepting that white male dominance of all aspects of western life is coming to an end.
Stop being scared of it and start accepting it as a good thing for everyone involved.
Equality is not oppression, even though if it might feel that way at first from the perspective of the ignorant privileged.
Diversity of educated opinion and perspectives is good. The media is mainly attacking uneducated opinions and perspective.
For example: In physics we haven't had a true breakthrough since Einstein. The standard model of particle physics is decades old. And things aren't at all progressing as fast as we had expected.
One of the main reasons why this is, according to many physicists, is that we tend to think in very human categories and look for "beauty" and "elegance" in solutions, even though there is no indication that the Universe gives a crap about what humans perceive as elegant and beautiful.
This doesn't mean that we should listen to nutjobs who talk about the aether and whatnot. We still need educated perspectives, but ones that break out of the established ways of thinking. And a good start is to try to become aware of the inherent biases in our way of thinking derived from the norms thats surround us and the ideals and standards we are used to.
It is about thinking outside the box, but still within the confinements of logic, reason and the scientific method.
The next few decades will be very though for you guys to handle when you have such problems with accepting that white male dominance of all aspects of western life is coming to an end.
Stop being scared of it and start accepting it as a good thing for everyone involved.
Equality is not oppression, even though if it might feel that way at first from the perspective of the ignorant privileged.
Diversity of educated opinion and perspectives is good. The media is mainly attacking uneducated opinions and perspective.
For example: In physics we haven't had a true breakthrough since Einstein. The standard model of particle physics is decades old. And things aren't at all progressing as fast as we had expected.
One of the main reasons why this is, according to many physicists, is that we tend to think in very human categories and look for "beauty" and "elegance" in solutions, even though there is no indication that the Universe gives a crap about what humans perceive as elegant and beautiful.
This doesn't mean that we should listen to nutjobs who talk about the aether and whatnot. We still need educated perspectives, but ones that break out of the established ways of thinking. And a good start is to try to become aware of the inherent biases in our way of thinking derived from the norms thats surround us and the ideals and standards we are used to.
It is about thinking outside the box, but still within the confinements of logic, reason and the scientific method.
You've asserted it in CAPS.
It must be true.
People afraid of a word?
Should I expect your standards of debate to improve over time.,or is it a lost cause?
It's a lost cause, isn't it?
Ah.
People scared of a word.
Yet nobody is saying any of the things you wrote. Everyone here appears to believe that ability/effort/talent > skin color. Maybe you should accept that? Maybe? Maybe making strawman arguments really aren't that useful? To me what you appear to be saying is, "Racism/sexism is logical", well, there is no doubt there can be benefit to being racists/sexists, but every racists/sexists says that it makes sense. Just because it can make logical sense doesn't make it good and nor do we have to accept it.
Nobody has to accept anyone, what are you talking about? What does that have to do with what he said? He actually said the opposite, the developers should look like the fans.... to me that means white male, white males make up an actual small percentage of the world but are a huge portion of the fans of their games.
48086
Member
joe_zazen
Member
Who dominates the world? It is global elites, and they come from all walks of life. Their domination is not ending. In fact, it is being enhanced 100 fold with the the rise of the global American technostate and remote warfare. Racism is not the #1 issue facing humanity, it is a distraction. Racism is not the reason for continual war—although in individual cases such as the Israeli slow motion extermination of Palestinians, it is. The end of racism—if such a thing were even possible—will not mean the end of evil or of domination.
This is what is so disappointing: the blossoming of pop culture social justice not touching on actual issues of power and control, but instead devolving into a sideshow. The laughable idea that things like Black Panther are changing the world, when in reality global elites further entrench their power via concentration of wealth offshore, while continuing to shed any semblance of social responsibility because they no longer belong to any nation. People fight over some MMA fighter voice acting in the stupidest game imaginable, while the US military steals Syrian oil and murders children in Yemen. People punch each other over voting for American military despot Trump and not American military despot Clinton. Why? The world is a nasty place run by power hungry sociopaths, and the do-gooders spend their time dogpiling on idiots because of tweets. But hey, muh videogame company brings a classroom of girls into their campus, so the world must be getting better.
I am disappointed that systemic change is further away than ever and we spend our time arguing about skin colour and orientation and worry about some non-existsnt Nazi movement and non- existent fascist russian takeover of the us govt. Instead, we should look at how and why 98% of US media is controled by a tiny handful of global elites, all with ties to the CIA, what messages they propagate, and what the endgame is.
People who've quoted the article didn't read it?
So precious.
In so much as free markets exist by then, the best will rise to the top. Free markets tend to have a healthy disregard for biases. They're just after whom offers the most value at the least cost.
A good thing is better products, in this case better videogames.
If the future ever comes when you're ready to defend your position, instead of asserting it ad infinitum as though it were self-evident, you might be able to actually engage. For now, all you're great at is telling how wonderful it is to throw milkshakes at your opponents.
If it's a result of administrative measures, as opposed to a natural result of the market working freely, it most certainly is.
Don't be so harsh on yourself.
That's why you support the use of violence against classic liberals, conservatives and moderate left-wingers?
Ah, the tiny print, the caveat, the"*, the educated".
Oh, dear.
How is it possible that someone as educated as you never tire to remind the forum is falling prey to the most basic logical fallacies? It's just one after the other.
What do gender, sexual orientation and skin colour possibly have to do with unorthodox scientific thinking, scientific merit, scientific ingenuity? Can you establish a causal link between the two?
Such as people who think using violence against their oponents is legitimate?
Agreed.
Would you be trying to discredit the scientific method while claiming to be defending it?
Wouldn't surprise me.
Listen, I want the most qualified, most talented people possible. I don't care if they're all men, all women, all white, all Turkish, all pansexual, all albino, all midgets, all transgender. All I want is fairness: the best get the job.
Simple.
Is that too difficult a concept for your to grasp?
You go first.
And none of that is impeded by having an all-female, or all male, or all-homosexual, or all heterosexual team, because - startling that I even have to bring this to your attention - not all male think alike, not all homosexuals think alike, not all latinos think alike, etc. History proves this conclusively,
rəddəM
Member
Bruh.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
All true, but to recognize racism as a big problem it doesn't have to be "the biggest".
Racism has been pushed in the limelight again, at least in Europe, by the far right rebranding itself in the light of the refugee crisis with a racist message.
Before that I heard very little talk about racism here.
Instead the left concerned itself with inequality and the influence of big corporations and their money on our politics.
But now they had to go back to the basics and defend the humanity and worth of everyone regardless of skin color or religious affiliation.
In the US minorities have always been used as scapegoats to distract the white middle class from the fact that they are being fucked over as well.
Just look at Trump coming in and blaming immigrants and Mexicans for some of the economic problems the white middle class is facing. Problems caused by an insufficient education system, an insufficient healthcare system and insufficient wealth redistribution.
American lack perspective.
But hey, Italian harbor workers refused to load weapons destined for Saudia Arabia onto ships in order to protest Saudi Arabias war in Yemen.
Good people are still around.
Because Clinton is rational and predictable and Trump is an erratic, deranged, dangerous sociopath.
He exploded your deficit by giving massive tax breaks to corporations and rich people, he is putting children in cages at the border. 6 children died in US custody under his presidency, thats unprecedented.
He is doing nothing to bring peace to North Korea, Palestine or to calm the relations with Iran, because he doesn't even begin to comprehend what these conflicts are about and as a result he just escalates them.
He started an era of unprecedented corruption in the US, with lobbyist now running the institutions that are supposed to oversee their industries. I mean, you'd be right to argue that lobby influence in the US has always been off the charts, but under Trump it has reached a whole new level.
And lastly Clinton wouldn't have alienated allies and embraced adversaries. And she would have stood for at least some decency in the world, but Trump normalizes and legitimizes despots and autocrats like Duterte.
Greater injustices don't invalidate fighting the smaller ones.
Racial injustice in the US is a major issues that directly affects of millions of people. You might not be one of them but people are being killed on your streets because of their skin color. People are sent to jail because of their skin color.
And the return of the Nazi movement is also a very obvious development. There are Nazis marching on the streets in the US, emboldened by a US president who calls himself a Nationalist. There are Nazis entering European parliaments all the time, and thats not even just me saying they are Nazis, these are people who were Members of Neonazi groups up until a few years ago when they left them for the rebranded far-right parties for PR reasons.
Austrias recently ousted vice-chancellor was one of them. Known Nazi past -> rebranded as a far-right politician -> turned out to still be Nazi and collapsed the government.
And just to give you some European perspective on the Russia thing.
Russia is a nationalist state with collectivist values and Russia hates the EU and NATO.
At some point Russia realized that nationalism in Europe is weakening the EU and they realized that the refugee crisis is perfect for exploitation by nationalist, anti-EU far right parties.
So they intervene in the middle with no other goal than to destabilize the region and keep the refugees coming, while at the same time supporting ALL the far right parties across Europe with money and propaganda.
This is very well documented and very well known.
So well known in fact that the Austrian government was brought down with a trap that resembled exactly what was going out around Europe: Far right parties selling out their countries to Russia.
Your media is shit because it's private. Journalism is a product in the US, following the rules of the market.
This problem doesn't exist in this way in Europe because most countries here have publicly funded media.
Oddvintagechap
Member
You were too busy trying to be cute. "You bitch... while you bitch" whatever the hell that means Texas prideful. Just cause you say the same word unnecessarily, doesn't mean I went full circle. Going by your own playground rules, you closed the circle. Baby Wipe.
Point here the spooky word was said. Diversity ~Oh no~ Keep up the good work Sony.
Niche.
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daninthemix
Member
He sounds more and more like a supervillain: PR Boy and the Marketeers.
Nymphae
Banned
It's not the use of the term diversity that bothers me, but the implication that non diverse teams are necessarily going to have lower quality creative output.
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So it's all fetishism at this point?
Sony used a magic word, an incantation to appease the God of Equity?
Thanks for sharing your animistic perspective.
Dacon
Banned
I just find this whole thing really silly. Who cares what the people making the games look like, identify as, or whatever. Who cares if they're black, white, purple, alien or whatever.
As long as theyre GOOD who gives a bloody shit. We need all the good developers we can get, if they all wind up looking white, black or asian in the process of seeking out that talent what difference does it make?
An author's race has no bearing on the people who read their books, so why is this a thing?
As long as theyre GOOD who gives a bloody shit. We need all the good developers we can get, if they all wind up looking white, black or asian in the process of seeking out that talent what difference does it make?
An author's race has no bearing on the people who read their books, so why is this a thing?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The argument is if you have a diverse set of employees.... race, gender, dude in a wheelchair etc..... it automatically leads to a higher quality product than having more qualified, but potentially more homogeneous employee pool.
Since only some countries have widely diverse population pools (the US is one of them), it basically means the other 95% of countries out their with very homogeneous populations create shit quality products, while countries with more diverse populations like US, Canada and UK theoretically makes the best products in the world.
lol
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TheKingKRoach
Member
More like Nintendo learned their lesson after the many localization flops during the WiiU era with Nintendo Treehouse.
Disappointing that we won't see a Tokyo Mirage Sessions FE Switch port without any censorship and running at 60FPS, because Atlus is generally bad with re-releasing non-Persona stuff.
cryogenic7
Member
So stupid.
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Sqorin Hammerfarf
Banned
Sony knows what its fans look like, because it is secretly watching them through the PS camera.
Liamario
Banned
There definitely is a problem with not hiring the right person for the job based on race or gender.
There is also the problem of hiring a person based on race or gender.
The problem is positive/negative discrimination. The solution is to mitigate it's effects, which is far easier said than done.
There is also the problem of hiring a person based on race or gender.
The problem is positive/negative discrimination. The solution is to mitigate it's effects, which is far easier said than done.
CyberPanda
Banned
And they fap.
angelic
Banned
Wrong forum, mr edgy.
Not really about how your mind works. Diversity quotas shouldn't even come into the mix. It's ironically racist in itself in that it often denies talented, qualified people of jobs because of their skin colour (but that's ok if they're white apparently). The colour of someone's skin or their nationality shouldn't be a factor, and the inclusion of it as one makes it VERY likely that more talented people lose out on positions purely because of their ethnicity, because they happen to be the majority in a given country. "The best mexican" in the city a studio is in could be awesome at his job as a dev. Or there could be 10 americans who are better, more experienced and more talented. It's literally a modern form of segregation and in no way a better way of forming a solid team when compared to an actual meritocracy, which would employ the most talented people, regardless of gender, skin colour and nationality
ruvikx
Banned
This is the epitome of aggressive anti-western, anti-white, casual racial hatred which the "muh diversity" team embodies. When you go to any nation, civilization or land & tell the ethnic majority whose stock actually built & founded the country (such as white Europeans in the USA) or indigenous ethnic majority (white Europeans in Europe who've been here for thousands upon thousands of years) & say "roll over & accept your replacement/annihilation, it's for the greater good!"... you're essentially just a Genghis Khan type belligerent pretending to be "better".
It's straight-up conquest & colonisation of white lands, i.e. weaponized mass immigration & enforced anti-white hiring (like reverse German lebensraum in which it's the third world immigrants who've given preferential treatment & European land). If that's what gets you excited, so be it, but you don't fool all of us. As for Sony (& Microsoft's recent diversity comments), it flies in the face of the entire cultural zeitgeist constructed by force since the 1960's cultural revolution. Why? Because we were always told race, gender & color doesn't matter. The individual was championed irrespective of race, creed or gender.
2019 SJW malpractices envolve the complete opposite: identity politics in which race & gender is the most important aspect, with a bad guy (white males) who need replacing. That's why Trump was elected. That's why "populists" in Europe have such large parties now. I guess not all white people hate themselves eh.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think it is partially a cultural management influence, MS and Sony being more and more influenced by American sociopolitical climate, but also of Nintendo “retreating” in their successful very profitable niche.
They are good at controlling their narrative and media and their fans, even in the U.S. (even those who would assault MS or Sony for releasing the same content), champions of family friendly fun software and their titles in the news and when they as a company are in the news is for family safe software indeed. They can afford to let more not heavily censored software in and get more third party support without getting flak in the media.
In the 80’s and early 90’s they were actually dominating the market and very much more exposed to the media, consumer protest groups, etc... and they were a lot more stringent and actually willing to publicly lambast any other player in the industry (“violence and links to violent games”)... all IMHO of course.
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TeamGhobad
Banned
so fat neckbeards?
Boss Mog
Member
White people are generic and all think the same no matter where they come from or what they go through in life. Don't you know that?
Texas Pride
Banned
No I made my point. You're a thread whining bitch. You came full circle so much so if you take your head out of your ass and reread what I wrote enough times I'm sure you have the ability to understand the underlying tone and meaning. If not so be it. Live in ignorance. You're a fucking tool. Nobody should have to explain to you why you're an asshole. Gaze into the mirror and ask yourself.
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"it's important our development teams look like our fans"
Actually, I find it a bit difficult to wrap my head around the statement without really understanding how larger AAA games are developed.
With small indie projects it would be basically impossible to implement this. If you have 3 or 4 dudes working on a game from scratch then it's going to be hard for them to introduce diversity into their set-up. Even more complicated for games developed by one person alone (such as Axiom Verge etc) where you have one person creating their vision of a game but they have to employ 3 or 4 other people to sit around and contribute nothing but diversity points.
Even if you think about a game like the 2018 version of God of War, to what extent would people be able to go up to Cory Barlog and say "as a person from Background X I feel that you need to remove Y from the game and replace it with Z"?
To what extent does the background of the development team influence the game?
How many people, on any given game, are actually in the positions of power that can directly influence the development?
I'm thinking that a lot of AAA games are developed in a similar way to how you might see big movies being made in the "behind the scenes" documentaries.
So it's no good if the "diversity" in your team is at the coding level or the QA level or even going to voice acting and whatnot.
At the end of the day it feels like you have 1 or 2 people with REAL power over these projects but you are marketing the product to literally millions of people all over the world so how is it possible to say "the dev team looks like the fans". Weird.
"If your teams all look the same and act the same, if they all share the same history and the same point of view, your products will not evolve and will eventually become lackluster and unimaginative. Sameness is the death of innovation and creativity."
Surely the history of Japan's influence on the medium instantly refutes this?
It's somewhat sad that people at the top levels of the video games industry are obligated to provide soundbites that appeal to the activists posing as journalists within the community.
His statements are very virtuous, for sure, but they also really make no sense.
I guess the thinking is "throw these games journos a bone so they will leave us be"?
Actually, I find it a bit difficult to wrap my head around the statement without really understanding how larger AAA games are developed.
With small indie projects it would be basically impossible to implement this. If you have 3 or 4 dudes working on a game from scratch then it's going to be hard for them to introduce diversity into their set-up. Even more complicated for games developed by one person alone (such as Axiom Verge etc) where you have one person creating their vision of a game but they have to employ 3 or 4 other people to sit around and contribute nothing but diversity points.
Even if you think about a game like the 2018 version of God of War, to what extent would people be able to go up to Cory Barlog and say "as a person from Background X I feel that you need to remove Y from the game and replace it with Z"?
To what extent does the background of the development team influence the game?
How many people, on any given game, are actually in the positions of power that can directly influence the development?
I'm thinking that a lot of AAA games are developed in a similar way to how you might see big movies being made in the "behind the scenes" documentaries.
So it's no good if the "diversity" in your team is at the coding level or the QA level or even going to voice acting and whatnot.
At the end of the day it feels like you have 1 or 2 people with REAL power over these projects but you are marketing the product to literally millions of people all over the world so how is it possible to say "the dev team looks like the fans". Weird.
"If your teams all look the same and act the same, if they all share the same history and the same point of view, your products will not evolve and will eventually become lackluster and unimaginative. Sameness is the death of innovation and creativity."
Surely the history of Japan's influence on the medium instantly refutes this?
It's somewhat sad that people at the top levels of the video games industry are obligated to provide soundbites that appeal to the activists posing as journalists within the community.
His statements are very virtuous, for sure, but they also really make no sense.
I guess the thinking is "throw these games journos a bone so they will leave us be"?
The problem is, what he said makes no sense. He is implying his development teams don't look like the fans, but the reality is they actually probably do. He wants them to look like the fans he doesn't have. Your second point, as to Japanese development is spot on, is he saying that teams shouldn't look the same? Well, logic would say that Sony should be de-assembling not only their studios there but a huge hunk of the Sony operations there as well, as its a bunch of same looking Japanese people.
What he said doesn't even appear to make any kind of sense, but if one were to actually use what he said... that's a big no-no in the United States as far as employment discrimination statutory laws, and probably most parts of the world if I were to guess. If there is ever a situation where workers feel like they are getting discriminated against in any of Sony's studios, surely his racists/sexists words will be used if its a large scale litigation like class action - anyone can use his words and it doesn't matter what color they are. As a President of SIEA, he should never ever speak about what the companies employees look like or should look like, this is common sense to anyone that does major business in the United States and I would imagine most places.
That guy was already not likable, now he comes off as a racist idiot on top of looking pompous. Half the time he looks like he's at a wine tasting event instead of a gaming event.
Silent Duck
Member
So all dev's will look like this:
Whew.... For minute, I thought it was a picture of me.
Then I noticed he had pants on.
Makoto Niijima
Banned
That’s excellent. Diversity in the games industry is something we all need to be better at, and it’s good to see Microsoft and Sony are both emphasizing and doubling down on their efforts to do so going forward.
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