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[Ce-Lin]

I don't need to give any explanations because I have not proclaimed anything about Spanish, German or French Engineers.

You come here, leave a disrespectful opinion about Spanish Engineers, and back it up on nothing but some anecdotal evidence.

And your multicultural environment related to high tech could perfectly mean the Laptop section of any Walmart shop.

PS: You want some data?

Check these:

http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/howdoesyourcountrycompare-spain.htm
http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/howdoesyourcountrycompare-germany.htm
http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/howdoesyourcountrycompare-france.htm

Spain workers work way more hours per year than their French, German colleagues.

If you want to discuss anything, do it with facts, and not shitty anecdotal evidence.

Now cue someone saying that it's all about productivity than raw work hours, while that's true it also shows Spaniards do stay whatever it takes to complete their tasks at work.

The ignorant potshots about Spaniards' this and that are absolutely disgusting and showing a distinct trait of stupidity. This was a human, this was a man-made machine, none of them are perfect, could have happened anywhere. And Catalans mixing this with politics? what's next? I think this is getting way off-topic now.

 

[dark_prinny]

I'm destroyed. Sad, sad day for us.

Descansen en paz.

 

[Ikael]

Some people have calculated the train speed at Forocoches, from all places. It seems that the train took the curve at 178 km/hrs, judging from the video footage and the distances between railway posts. Jesus Holy Christ on a jetpack, that's far too much speed for a curve.

Checked his post history?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48797178&postcount=581

So this is why.

Why am I not slightly surprised. Well, gotta score some "Spain sucks" points for more Catalonian independentist fuel, I guess.

 

[ced]

It's crazy these more modern trains don't have automatic speed controls depending on the track conditions.

 

[Funky Papa]

It's crazy these more modern trains don't have automatic speed controls depending on the track conditions.

They do have a number of controls with failsafes. It's not clear what happened. Either the driver banged it or something failed in catastrophic fashion.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

45+ dead?

At 250 km/h how quickly did these people die? I hope they did not get an antagonizing dead, which I do not mean in a disrepectful way.

One of the most common causes of death with a deceleration injury is where your aorta rips off of one of your vessels. It's pretty quick. It's morbid to think about but I always think about it when I get nervous on an airplane. If something happens, at that high rate of speed, it'll be quick and you'll probably get a brain injury rendering you unconscious.

 

[Ce-Lin]

It's crazy these more modern trains don't have automatic speed controls depending on the track conditions.

they have, the train that crashed even features in firmware a lock preventing drivers from overriding some safety measures the likes of automatic throttle, now if for some reason Renfe messed with that they are going to find themselves in deep shit.

 

[BruiserBear]

This is the scary reality of high speed trains that has always worried me.

Yeah, they're awesome because they get you places at such high speeds, but if there is an accident, it's gonna be a bad one.

 

[DrM]

You are not buckled on the seat on high speed trains. So, when train derail, everything turns into flying debris. Passengers included.

 

[Az]

Damn, this is horrible. Looking at the crash I can see how the number is that high.

 

[Hunter-Zero]

You are not buckled on the seat on high speed trains. So, when train derail, everything turns into flying debris. Passengers included.

Pretty much meat against metal at high speed, there´s no way out.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

And? Working more ours means working better?? I won't explain what productivity is...

I've not said nothing direspectfull about spanish engineers, i was just stating that as an average they are not considered the best as someones here seemed to think.

What? That has nothing to do with what i said.

Anyway, as i said, bad news. I'm not contributing to talk about other things.

As of may 2013:

Spanish productivity: 115.21
German productivity: 103.90

Source OECD.

The goalposts, keep moving them please. You've got an axe to grind, buddy.

 

[Kiraly]

How the fuck did this thread turn to some shit discussion about Spanish engineering? Accidents on the rails can happen anywhere, as we have seen over this summer.

 

[CTLance]

Normally I'd appreciate all that back and forth between Engineers from Spain and Germany and wherever else because it's interesting, but this is absolutely not the thread for this kind of talk and I feel like I'm gonna punch the nose through the face of the next person mentioning Engineers, right in the face of a terrible tragedy with dozens upon dozens of maimed people still fighting for their lives and 80 people dead.

Seriously, this makes me angry. I will drive over and punch you in the fucking face if you don't stop immediately. This discussion has zero business in being here. STFU, dammit.

 

[Brinbe]

That to see that death count rise each time I check back on this story. Horrific =(

 

[Loonz]

There are, apparently, 2 different investigations going on right now. We've yet to know what the hell happened. So instead of drawing early and incomplete conclusions (the discussion about the engineering is just lolworthy), we should wait a bit until we have actual data about what happened.

 

[zma1013]

Dude said he was going too fast. Nothing engineering related at all.

 

[Ce-Lin]

As of may 2013:

Spanish productivity: 115.21
German productivity: 103.90

Source OECD.

The goalposts, keep moving them please. You've got an axe to grind, buddy.

amazing reply, can you say owned ? now we can finally stop the "lazy and incompetent Spanish engineers" bs and follow the news about this horrible accident.

 

[Leonsito]

You are not buckled on the seat on high speed trains. So, when train derail, everything turns into flying debris. Passengers included.

Yeah, in this ALVIA there isn't any seatbealts, for passengers or for luggage and there is at least one wagon that is the coffee zone where people is standing, you can go there any time during the trip. Maybe is time to start puting seatbelts in trains.

Also, I was finally able to talk to a friend I know in Santiago, all her family and friends are ok.

 

[Leonsito]

HD video of the impact zone from today: http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/video/...as-zona-accidente/00311374750094909538533.htm

 

[Purkake4]

Way to shit up the thread. This is a horrible tragedy.

 

[DrForester]

That video is horrifying.

Very sad.

 

[Ce-Lin]

Dude said he was going too fast. Nothing engineering related at all.

The question is how could the train run so fast on that section of the track when there are safety measures which automatically engage to slow the machinery down, as discussed by some experts late yesterday the train that crashed has a firmware preventing overriding these measures so basically the drivers can't adjust speed on tricky sections, of course brakes can always be engaged but not acceleration. Was the train computer manipulated?

Having said that the driver remains in custody and 15 minutes ago declared again it was only his fault for going fast, "much too fast", it was not his first drive, not a rookie at all, so... Why ????

 

[friskykillface]

wow. that footage is insane

:'( really tragic.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Tragic and absolutely terrifying.

Now i'm working in a multi cultural enviroment, and you know what? We, spanish are of another kind of mentality. Germans, Dutch, French and Nordic people are all more hard worker than us.

And I stopped reading. Minds that work in reductive cultural stereotypes are laughable.

 

[Gabotron ES]

As a spaniard this is absolutelly sad and terrifying, terrible news to wake up to


edit: wtf at the lazy engineering, you guys are one of a kind.

 

[Jasup]

Really tragic. I can't imagine how those affected feel right now.
On the other hand the pictures of people queuing to donate blood were uplifting. It's nice to see people helping those in need in any way they can.

Sad to see this thread having national dick waving undertones.

 

[Akkad]

RIP, I loved taking the train when we lived in Spain, Mostoles to Madrid every Sunday was the highlight of my week.

 

[TomServo]

I'm stunned there was no kind of automatic train control engaged. If there should have been and it was somehow bypassed... wow.

Also, FWIW, I work in rail in the US, but do enough global travel (too much according to my wife!) and have enough global clients to know that CAF is world class.

 

[luxarific]

As a spaniard this is absolutelly sad and terrifying, terrible news to wake up to


edit: wtf at the lazy engineering, you guys are one of a kind.

There's only two posters who have been making such stupid and uninformed comments, the rest of us are not idiots.

My sympathies to the victims and to Spain. This is just awful.

 

[Rhyvven]

The question is how could the train run so fast on that section of the track when there are safety measures which automatically engage to slow the machinery down, as discussed by some experts late yesterday the train that crashed has a firmware preventing overriding these measures so basically the drivers can't adjust speed on tricky sections, of course brakes can always be engaged but not acceleration. Was the train computer manipulated?

Having said that the driver remains in custody and 15 minutes ago declared again it was only his fault for going fast, "much too fast", it was not his first drive, not a rookie at all, so... Why ????

Horrible, horrible way to perish. Somewhat unrelated to this tragedy, I saw a new article over the weekend (the story itself is actually more than a year old though) regarding "tube travel". While scientifically "cool", how on earth do they even consider building something like this from a safety point? Does there not come a time where faster travel exceeds what can be done to protect the passengers?

http://www.gizmag.com/terraspan-vacuum-tube-train-supersonic-ultra-fast/23267/

 

[Twilight Gap]

Not sure if already posted.

Video of the Crash


:/

 

[Funky Papa]

I'm stunned there was no kind of automatic train control engaged. If there should have been and it was somehow bypassed... wow.

Also, FWIW, I work in rail in the US, but do enough global travel (too much according to my wife!) and have enough global clients to know that CAF is world class.

That particular line uses the ASFA system, which alerts the driver in case of overspeeding. It can also stop the train, but unlike the newer ETCS (which is being deployed right now), it only engages the brakes when the train is close to a train station or approaches a railroad switch.

ASFA *is* a safe system, as the driver could kill the engine in the event of a malfunction (and IIRC he can also activate the brakes manually), but it's designed to prevent accidents, not to stop a driver flooring the pedal, so to speak. The black box is currently being examined, so we'll know soon enough what happened.

 

[AFollowerNotALeader]

Man, that video

I commute by train every day and rail disasters are a persistent nightmare for me.

 

[7aged]

That particular line uses the ASFA system, which alerts the driver in case of overspeeding. It can also stop the train, but unlike the newer ETCS (which is being deployed right now), it only engages the brakes when the train is close to a train station or approaches a railroad switch.

ASFA *is* a safe system, as the driver could kill the engine in the event of a malfunction (and IIRC he can also activate the brakes manually), but it's designed to prevent accidents, not to stop a driver flooring the pedal, so to speak. The black box is currently being examined, so we'll know soon enough what happened.

Driver view of the track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QvvvL3OTtXk&t=1798
Crash area is around 31:40 .

One thing I don't like about the way they designed this section of track is how it switches systems right before a tight curve (that comes straight after a tunnel ! ). Talk about sensory overload

 

[Funky Papa]

Same curve at the appropriate speed.

It is pretty clear that the train was going at full speed before entering the tunnel.

Edit: That article explains that the ASFA system can stop a train if it goes over 200 km/h. The train reached 180-190 km/h, which is in line with the hypothesis of the driver speeding up for funsies.

 

[Arcteryx]

I'm stunned there was no kind of automatic train control engaged. If there should have been and it was somehow bypassed... wow.

Also, FWIW, I work in rail in the US, but do enough global travel (too much according to my wife!) and have enough global clients to know that CAF is world class.

.

At the very least there should be a maximum speed via GPS route system in place to control the entire route. I get that train "drivers" don't enjoy that shit, but it would solve issues like this(aside from mechanical problems ofc).

 

[Nevasleep]

How long ago was the last crash in Europe which was this bad, must be decades?

 

[The perfect Dark]

How long ago was the last crash in Europe which was this bad, must be decades?

Yes. I think the last crash was here in germany (Eschede 1998). 101 people died.

 

[Midnight Moon]

Good God that crash was insanely brutal :/ Between this, the crash in Canada and the one near Paris, it's been a terrible summer for the railroad industry.

I'm starting to notice a trend, all these events seem to happen around eachother.

All of these ships capsizing, all these planes crashing, all these trains crashing, all these shootings.

It really makes me scared even though it's more likely I will be in a car crash, but I feel like I have more of a chance of surving that than those...

 

[Purkake4]

I'm starting to notice a trend, all these events seem to happen around eachother.

All of these ships capsizing, all these planes crashing, all these trains crashing, all these shootings.

It really makes me scared even though it's more likely I will be in a car crash, but I feel like I have more of a chance of surving that than those...

You may want to look into confirmation bias.

Also, maybe a list of train accidents will help.

 

[Socreges]

Same curve at the appropriate speed.

It is pretty clear that the train was going at full speed before entering the tunnel.

Edit: That article explains that the ASFA system can stop a train if it goes over 200 km/h. The train reached 180-190 km/h, which is in line with the hypothesis of the driver speeding up for funsies.

Is it possible that he was given instruction, implicit or otherwise, to speed up in order to get people to the destination on time?

 

[Socreges]

I'm starting to notice a trend, all these events seem to happen around eachother.

All of these ships capsizing, all these planes crashing, all these trains crashing, all these shootings.

It really makes me scared even though it's more likely I will be in a car crash, but I feel like I have more of a chance of surving that than those...

Better just not go outside until this whole 'people dying' phenomenon passes.

 

[Funky Papa]

Who knows. I kind of doubt it, though. Speeding up at that particular curve is nothing but a bad idea, plus the train was only 5 minutes late and pretty close to the station. At this point it's better to wait for the official analysis of the black box.

 

[Liha]

R.I.P.

 

[cyberheater]

Just saw the train crash on Youtube. Horrifying.

Rest in peace for those that died and I wish those who are injured a speedy recovery.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Terrible. My thoughts are with the families and the people of Spain.

 

[Cat Party]

Awful video. I'm amazed so many survived. Quite shocking that such gross operator error could even occur.

 

[roddur]

from the video looks like the bogie behind the engine was off the track and curved track made it worse.

RIP

 

[Salmonax]

Good lord that footage is terrifying.