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[SPOILERS] Zero Time Dilemma Spoiler Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

welp, just beat it and i gotta say that was some weak-ass bullshit. probably my biggest disappointment in a game since mass effect 3.
 
after ztd, i am practically convinced 999 was a beautiful accident - a weird combination of a lack of resources but the right ideas and platform. virtue's last reward was a game that was better than its predecessor but told a dumber story and did so far worse.

999 managed to captivate its audience with bust-ups, no voice acting, and fun ideas and good writing. there's a real urgency to getting off the sinking ship in 999, and by forcing the player into a timeline, the sense of claustrophobia is heightened until you hit what is almost inevitably, a bad end. it almost feels intentionally designed that way - where vlr and ztd go off on their flowcharts in order to make everything easier.

what 999 did was offer two or three bad endings and several paths there. vlr and ztd allow you to jump from place to place, to the point where the characters acknowledge that they're going to do it casually. i totally could not buy the dilemma towards the end of ztd of 'but what about our other consciousnesses guys!' what vlr and ztd do is remove the weight from the choices being made in the game, and by having so many negative ends, the horror and suspense is reduced to almost nothing.

there has been a real sliding scale of presentation too. vlr was worrisome yet understandable in going with models. they still do the bust-ups with the 3d models, which is fine. here they went full-cinematic with it and it's just garbage. voice acting is fairly hit and miss (although i think it's mostly good aside from akane's unfortunately), and a lot of the scene direction is bonkers. like diana and akane twitching on the ground with their eyes bugging out. i'm not sure if it was aksys or spike chunsoft who thought this was necessary to the game being appealing, but someone didn't understand what made 999 appealing in the first place, because it certainly wasn't its cinematics. a real swing and a miss there.

while that seems like surface stuff, it's not. it matters to me since it takes me out of the game very time i see characters looking dumb, animating poorly, or reacting extremely slowly to the environment around them.

puzzles are fine, i guess. i never got too stuck, and usually if i saved a puzzle for the next day, i could get back to it and it would work out. i dislike how they are all basically bunched together, and then the final story bits happen for about five hours straight. just weird pacing there, but given the context of the story, i suppose it's understandable. it's disappointing though that there isn't any sort of grand finale - 999 had one with the incinerator room, and vlr had one in zero's room.

as for the characters, the new ones suck and the old ones are disappointing i don't care about delta. i think phi being sigma's kid retroactively makes vlr really gross. akane and junpei's dynamic is ruined and each character is worse due to this game. mira sucks, eric sucks, sean's all right and the d-team are generally all right too. having a character named zero in this game is super dumb and there's actually no reason for it whatsoever.

i'm fine with vlr's world being a sideplot. in fact when it happened, it was one of the few genuine surprises in the game since i didn't think it was actively happening. however, the fact that this was all so delta could be born is a crummy story to tell, and lacks the weight of 999's loop-closing since we don't know who delta is until 75% of the game's been completed. i also don't like that this is pretty much here to set up a zero escape 4 where the current team of superheroes goes on to defeat a terrorist.

to wrap this up, i have to return to the subject of tension. 999 does this really well with having a single (two) main character(s) experiencing just a couple different stories, with the goal of really just saving one person. its twists are fun because they come from the backdrop of the game's setting, anecdotes sprinkled throughout the game, and because they're a subversion video game mechanics and tropes that we've come to know for years now. and before the game gets into any sort of weird pseudo-science, you're basically trying to escape a sinking ship and stop a mastermind without any understanding that there's something else going on. we learn it with the characters. by starting us off in a somewhat-familiar place, and introducing the player to a pretty straightforward idea in a really straightforward way (you are playing a mystery visual novel that has different endings - good luck!), expectations are set in a certain way.

in virtue's last reward, we start hearing about more sci-fi, but plausible stuff like human cloning, cryostasis, a lunar base, and other things that could exist in the far future, as well as the game's own fake disease, radical-6. in zero time dilemma we have a transportation pod and mind hacking: things that are never set up and just kind of pop into the game because of reasons. the plan is both grand (assembling a group of superheroes) and simple (making sure delta was born). and the audience has no real investment in it because delta is no akane and the grand scheme is just a set up for another game. i kind of liked that virtue's last reward's endgame was just to close a time loop. i thought that the game would be a lot more focused on stopping radical-6. i thought it would be more focused on any one thing. instead we get a lot of dumb out-of-character moments like akane killing carlos with a chainsaw.

this almost feels like a game that uchikoshi didn't want to make. it's obviously set up for more in the series, especially with the zero escape franchise name now. at least, this isn't the game i would have wanted uchikoshi to make. i would have preferred some closure. i would have liked to see the radical-6 story tie back into the akane/nonary game story. i guess i am glad that i have an original copy of 999. at least the zero escape branding stink didn't get all over it.
 
this almost feels like a game that uchikoshi didn't want to make. it's obviously set up for more in the series, especially with the zero escape franchise name now. at least, this isn't the game i would have wanted uchikoshi to make.

I'm fairly sure Uchikoshi said himself that ZTD is completely different from what he had in mind in VLR. He had a basic outline of what he wanted to do but once time went by and he finally had an opportunity to do it he found himself bored by it and went into a completely different direction.

I think it's understandable, but it's a shame nonetheless. ZTD doesn't gel with what VLR had set up and as you said, feels more bogged down by the necessity to stick to the series and deliver some closure for hanging plot threads. Which he didn't pull out too well either.

I mostly agree that there are huge problems with some of the new stuff introduced by the game because it's not set up at all. The anecdotes, the pseudoscience stuff dropped along the line made me second-guessing whether it's true or not, especially in VLR. In ZTD ancient aliens and mind hack are just dropped on the player without any build-up.

Shame, shame really. It's still a decent game but compared to previous entries in the series the delivery is totally botched.
 
I'm fairly sure Uchikoshi said himself that ZTD is completely different from what he had in mind in VLR. He had a basic outline of what he wanted to do but once time went by and he finally had an opportunity to do it he found himself bored by it and went into a completely different direction.

I think it's understandable, but it's a shame nonetheless. ZTD doesn't gel with what VLR had set up and as you said, feels more bogged down by the necessity to stick to the series and deliver some closure for hanging plot threads. Which he didn't pull out too well either.

I mostly agree that there are huge problems with some of the new stuff introduced by the game because it's not set up at all. The anecdotes, the pseudoscience stuff dropped along the line made me second-guessing whether it's true or not, especially in VLR. In ZTD ancient aliens and mind hack are just dropped on the player without any build-up.

Shame, shame really. It's still a decent game but compared to previous entries in the series the delivery is totally botched.

that's really disappointing. honestly, as impossible as it sounds, i would have liked some higher level thinking if we were going for big drama. like maybe the fact that there are three platforms the game is on plays into the story in some fashion. instead this feels like virtue's last reward 2.

i wanted it to go back to being simpler and focused. i really like akane as a character. what we see of her in 999 and vlr is a mastermind who junpei probably shouldn't have any sort of longing towards. having only some glimpses of the real her gave the character a bit of mystery since you never knew her real intentions. finding her a year after the nonary game, and junpei is there too, and she's just kind of told to put on a robe and go to a place... yeah, it's dumb. i had imagined it was actually her and aoi's plan entering a final stage - where she was playing a super, super long game so that she could create a reality for herself where she could live out a normal childhood and the bad guys get their comeuppance before anyone gets hurt.

instead everything is dumb and it sucks.
 
Well I just beat the game and I find it very odd that everyone is fine with Mira being a mass murderer. No one even bats an eye at it by the end.

It is also super disappointing that the whole Radical-6 plot line didn't really matter in the end. Nothing from the other games really came together and it all just kind of ... ended. What a disappointment. It's one of those games where you keep waiting for something to happen and nothing really does.
 
Well I just beat the game and I find it very odd that everyone is fine with Mira being a mass murderer. No one even bats an eye at it by the end.

It is also super disappointing that the whole Radical-6 plot line didn't really matter in the end. Nothing from the other games really came together and it all just kind of ... ended. What a disappointment. It's one of those games where you keep waiting for something to happen and nothing really does.
Not sure what happened with Mira there. Did the writers just forget about it lol?
 
Well I just beat the game and I find it very odd that everyone is fine with Mira being a mass murderer. No one even bats an eye at it by the end.

It is also super disappointing that the whole Radical-6 plot line didn't really matter in the end. Nothing from the other games really came together and it all just kind of ... ended. What a disappointment. It's one of those games where you keep waiting for something to happen and nothing really does.

on the plus side we have mind hacking and transportation pods from aliens.

how did this thing review well? this game felt like if david cage made a sequel to virtue's last reward.
 
They didn't forget, she goes to jail.

Later, she gets broken out by Eric and Sean, so that they can create a timeline where she doesn't commit murder.
Yeah and their whole branch in the post-game files was idiotic.

I meant in the context of within the game though. It was weird that no one really commented or acted on it.
 
on the plus side we have mind hacking and transportation pods from aliens.

how did this thing review well? this game felt like if david cage made a sequel to virtue's last reward.

Because reviews for sequels are more often than not a reflection of how the previous game was received, rather than a referendum on the new game's quality.

999 and VLR were beloved, so reviewers were predisposed to like ZTD, or at least to look past its flaws.
 
Damn, I guess we're far enough away from launch that people are just letting rip, huh?

Yes, it was a huge disappointment. The tone of most of this thread tells the tale.

If people hadn't invested so much into this series and these characters I'm sure there'd be more criticism of how poorly everything is put together. If the story of this game's development wasn't an 'underdog-overcomes-all-odds' story and this was developed by some big developer people would be ripping it apart.

It's really, really poor in almost every single way that matters. Pacing, animation, dialogue etc. And you know what? Almost all of the flaws were apparent from the very first trailer.

I wish it hadn't ended up like this. The tragedy for me is that it retroactively changes the way I think about VLR, which was my favourite VN game experience ever.
 
I watched some parts of a Lets Play of ZTD. Looking back at it, I really feel like the game had a great build up through most of the game. The way you start to see things connect really was a special part of the game. But then......they just ended it in such a spectacularly bad way. It would be like if Seven just ended with the cops meeting with the villain in the middle of the desert and they ask him why he did this and he just said "Complex Motives!" and they arrested him and everybody happily went back to their families.
 
on the plus side we have mind hacking and transportation pods from aliens.

how did this thing review well? this game felt like if david cage made a sequel to virtue's last reward.

It was too hyped, no reviewers would have the balls to tell the truth. (Assuming they actually finished it)
 
The more I think about it, the more I think a 6-7 would be a fair score. I really do have to question the 8s, 9s and 10s though.

Awful presentation, mediocre audio, terrible audio mixing and a stupid-ass ending. Far from a masterpiece.
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.

LOL no. Danganronpa isn't even in the same league as Zero Escape.
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.

funny - as i was playing through ztd, i started thinking how much uchikoshi could have benefited from a character writer like kodaka for this game. even though the danganronpa 2 twists are pretty dumb, i'd have to say it had some interesting characters with clear motives and i wanted things to work out for certain people in the end. i couldn't give a shit about any of the dumbfucks in ztd - and i liked those dumbfucks when they were in other games!

1. 999
2. phoenix wright: ace attorney
3. danganronpa
4. danganronpa 2
5. life is strange
6. ace attorney: trials and tribulations
7. ace attorney: justice for all
8. ghost trick
9. virtue's last reward
10. apollo justice: ace attorney
11. heavy rain
12. ace attorney: dual destinies
13. telltale's the walking dead season 1
14. zero time dilemma
15. miles edgeworth investigations
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.

You're not. The people who didn't like it are just very angry and very talkative.
 
RImZKfZl.jpg
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.

That's actually a very hard question, ZTD is stupid as hell, but everything outside the murders and the characters in Danganronpa is stupid too!
 
I can appreciate it for what it is. Still not a fan of escape rooms.

Danganronpa 3 does not disappoint so far. Zero Escape could have done more than just games. A novel series for example.

They'll do the ports and that's it. Uchikochi moves to the next project. While Team Danganronpa gets bigger.

Franchise just lost its momentum. Well and Japan didn't care.
 
They didn't forget, she goes to jail.

Later, she gets broken out by Eric and Sean, so that they can create a timeline where she doesn't commit murder.

I didn't even realize there were post game files. I guess that explains where the epilogue went, but man that is really disappointing. The fact she goes to jail on her own accord is very odd considering the lack of characterization she had all game.

Overall this game feels like Mass Effect 2; it doesn't add much to the story of overall, but in this case it is more disappointing cause this is the finale
 
Ugh, I thought it was annoying on Vita at times, I can only imagine what 3DS was like.
The 3ds version isn't so good just because they stripped out some gameplay mechanics from VLR that took advantage of the 3ds' dual screens. Now, I have no idea what the 2nd screen is for other than just being added weight that bogs down framerates
 
I finally finished it yesterday after putting it off for nearly a month because I was worried I'd end up being disappointed and... All I can think about is how disappointing it was.

What a mess. Phi/Zero are now Sigma's kids, Zero/Q/Delta just pops up out of nowhere, Zero did it all just so he could be born, Mira suddenly sees the error of her ways and stops being a psychopath, mind hacking!, alien technology! and on and on and on. Again, what a mess. And that's before I get onto the awful animation and needlessly confusing fragments system.

I wouldn't say I would've preferred it if they'd just left it at VLR, I'm glad it got some kind of ending, but I sure as hell do wish they'd done a much better job with it.

Danganronpa and Zero Escape both peaked with the first game and went downhill from there. AE is way worse than ZTD though.

This seems like a good comparison but AE != Danganronpa 3, it's a spinoff. I don't think it'll be hard for Danganronpa 3 to be much better than ZTD.
 
i had imagined it was actually her and aoi's plan entering a final stage - where she was playing a super, super long game so that she could create a reality for herself where she could live out a normal childhood and the bad guys get their comeuppance before anyone gets hurt.
This is where I was hoping things would be going by the end of the trilogy, so I was disappointed with what we got instead.
 
So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Hard to give a final answer since DR3 Despair and Future arcs haven't finished airing, but in all honestly, yeah I do think that Danganronpa has been the better series purely on the basis of consistency. 999 was an incredible game, probably the best on the DS. VLR was generally decent but had a number of flaws - namely presentation, flow and the reliance on wrapping everything up with the next title. ZTD is simply bad - poor presentation, boring characters, dull puzzles, inconsistent voice acting, ignoring almost all loose threads and worst of all - pulling a Kingdom of the Crystal Skull with the bullshit plot points ("oh, alien teleporters", "lol I have mind control", "random invisible dude did it" etc.)

DR1 was overall a great game with no major weak points (even if the trial minigames were a bit meh). DR2 had some fairly low points, but its high points blew DR1 out of the water (eg. chapter 5). UDG was poor. It started off fairly well, but the repetitive gameplay dragged on far too long and the characters only grew more unlikable as you progressed. That said it was only a spinoff that ultimately doesn't have much impact on the rest of the series, so it's fairly easy to ignore unlike ZTD. The DR3 Future and Despair anime arcs have both been pretty good so far.
 
LOL no. Danganronpa isn't even in the same league as Zero Escape.

EHHHHhhhhhhHHhhhhhhh

This is a pretty massive stretch

If we're going by averages, I definitely prefer DanganRonpa to Zero Escape at this point

So now that everyone hates Zero Time Dilemma, would you agree Danganronpa is the better series? Ultra Despair Girls was mess, much worse as a 3rd game than ZTD.

Oh well, guess I'm the only one who loved ZTD. Zero Time Dilemma is tied with Tokyo Mirage Sessions as my GOTY 2016.

Ultra Despair girls isn't comparable to ZTD, lmao
 
I didn't even realize there were post game files. I guess that explains where the epilogue went, but man that is really disappointing. The fact she goes to jail on her own accord is very odd considering the lack of characterization she had all game.
I have only played these games from the writer but it seems the guy can't keep any character conisistant across entries.
I had to go to Wiki to double check who was a returning character.
 
This is where I was hoping things would be going by the end of the trilogy, so I was disappointed with what we got instead.

when this project started in early 2014, it felt like uchikoshi was upset that he didn't get to tell the actual conclusion he had in mind, but apparently he got bored of it while waiting and turned out this shit.

even on an ideas level it's a retread of vlr. vlr made what was basically an unknown phenomenon ('espers' - god how i hate they named that)in 999 into a casual thing, and then introduced a new phenomenon (shifting) to explain the flowchart mechanic. it was no 999 twist on multiple endings and dual screens, but it was at least some attempt at it.

in ztd it's just vlr, except again. also, there's a bunch of shifters apparently, rendering 999's main setting fairly useless.
 
I wish it hadn't ended up like this. The tragedy for me is that it retroactively changes the way I think about VLR, which was my favourite VN game experience ever.

Watching old VLR trailers... still brings out the good feelings and memories. So far I don't think ZTD is a Star Wars prequels situation. Though I might need to block out some shit from this game and maybe try to force some headcanon in my mind based on only the good aspects of ZTD.

Because reviews for sequels are more often than not a reflection of how the previous game was received, rather than a referendum on the new game's quality.

Yeah, particularly look at big names like Final Fantasy 13 and Resident Evil 5 inherently receiving good reviews back in the day, despite being mediocre. Yet after bad word of mouth got out for 5, it was ,,safe" to slam RE6 (for example).
Also in this case I guess several reviewers simply weren't all that invested with the previous game's lore, making the lacklustre and nonsensical ending, at least in regards to continuing VLR, not so blatant for them. On its own the title and maybe even the ending might have been sufficient, but even then certainly not 9/10 amazing.
 
Eh, it was pretty much a horizontal line for me at "Good" until it dropped at the Zero reveal. Only time I'd say it reached "Epic" for me was during D-End 2.

That chart would be more accurate if it reflected my expectations of what to come. Really felt that the fragment concept was done in a way to build up towards something special that would shine everything in a really cool new light.

Edit: Ah, you changed it.
 
Eh, it was pretty much a horizontal line for me at "Good" until it dropped at the Zero reveal. Only time I'd say it reached "Epic" for me was during D-End 2.

That chart would be more accurate if it reflected my expectations of what to come. Really felt that the fragment concept was done in a way to build up towards something special that would shine everything in a really cool new light.

Edit: Ah, you changed it.

Yeah, fixed it for accuaracy lol.

This is an ending:

https://youtu.be/xHL4LUJ_9Vs?t=1936

My lord.
 
I thought the game's beginning was super duper weak. There's a huge lack of interactivity, and you're basically forced to sit through the same scenes 3 times.

The game starts to pick up considerably once you start getting into the meat of decision games. ie: the dice decision, the Yellow button decision, etc. Basically any time Zero forced you to make a decision after a puzzle was great.

Obviously Sigma/Diana ending is peak ZTD.
 
The beginning was shit and really it showed the weakness of the new format.


3 slow ass long CS watching characters discussing things you already knew/figured 10 minutes ago.
 
I understand that the begenning wasn't as good as the rest of the game. But once you understand the why, I think it's pretty good.
(I'm only referring to the very first ending)
 
The format was alright, but the beginning desperately needed an hour or two of proper introduction. Like in the previous two games, properly introducing the characters, situation, setting up the mystery, plus the characters taking their time to analyze the situation. Then the fragmentation could have been pulled off. However, being thrown straight into randomized scenes without any build-up doesn't work at all.

So the story was basically stumbling hard for several hours before slowly ascending. Then, during mid-end game you might get the impression that the full turn-around is about to happen, just before that ending hits out of nowhere, leaving you like this:
tE4PZ0h.gif
 
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