Basileus777
Member
ZTD does not hit the lows of UDG. It's not quite that bad.
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[SPOILERS] Zero Time Dilemma Spoiler Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Yasumi
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ZTD does not hit the lows of UDG. It's not quite that bad.
Ehhh, I wouldn't say anything in UDG got anywhere near as low as MIND HACK, Complex Motives, or alien photocopier. Those three actively damaged my suspension of disbelief, and brought the entire Zero Escape series down for me.
Azure Phoenix
Member
UDG doesn't take a dump all over a storyline which has been building for 2 games, nor spoil your enjoyment of others in the series, it's just a (mostly) self-contained side story that sucks.
In the grander scheme UDG definitely adds more to Danganronpa.
It also looks gorgeous, whereas ZTD is inconsisent. Akane's hair looks like shit.
ZTD did its job and nothing more. I'm only disappointed the key art captured a way beter feel.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
LOL no. Zero Time Dilemma is an absolute masterpiece in comparison to Ultra Despair Girls, which is nonsensical garbage with no redeeming qualities at all.
It's more of a puzzle game with TPS mechanics than a shooter.
Basileus777
Member
It's a bad puzzle game too.
PurpleMaster
Member
To be fair, I'm happy that I played the game blind, without knowing the general disappointment. Still, I felt disappointed, but not as disappointed as many other people.
I'm really curious to see what status this game will get with time.
Does anybody know what the general consensus on MGSV is now? For me, THAT was a MAJOR disappointment...
Anyways, never played UDG, waiting for a serious price drop... I'm saving it for an eventual Danganronpa marathon when the anime ends!
I'm really curious to see what status this game will get with time.
Does anybody know what the general consensus on MGSV is now? For me, THAT was a MAJOR disappointment...
Anyways, never played UDG, waiting for a serious price drop... I'm saving it for an eventual Danganronpa marathon when the anime ends!
sackboy2197
Member
It was the same for me, I played it near release and kept my expectations in check. Like you, I was disappointed but not that much. Overall I felt the game was solid, it could have certainly used a bit more time to develop some points better, especially towards the ending (which came probably all too quickly).
Funyarinpa
Member
That shit was actively painful to read. Literally 7th-grader fanfiction tier.
Also, the ending IS an atrocious shitshow but I wouldn't say ZTD hits the lows of UDG's first two chapters or the whole cringeworthy interactions between the two main characters. ZTD is a huge disappointment, it ruined the ending of a series that had, in all seriousness, changed my life deeply until that point and changed my perspective on many things from my belief that games can be art if they want to, to a trust that human compassion can exist no matter the circumstances. From an objective perspective though, it's STILL better than UDG. ZTD being a 4/10 hurts me more than UDG being 2/10, if that makes sense.
GhostTrick
Banned
Finished the game, don't get the hate. It was amazing, gotta break that 4th wall :")
The Silver
Member
It's really weird how that terrorist stuff came out of nowhere, all the time they had to plan this out and the best complex motive for Zero was some shit that was never hinted at before and then goes unresolved in the game itself?
Funyarinpa
Member
Also how Delta's plan was to release Radical-6 to possibly kill the "religious fanatic" calls into question HOW he planned to do it exactly. I mean, having just one Decision Game with three Rad-6 syringes as the cornerstone of your plan seems a bit silly to me. Moreover, Radical-6 being in a single Decision Game really disappointed me as I was expecting Radical-6, its creation and how exactly it would be spread to the world to be one of the central themes for Zero Time Dilemma, but even Eric and Mira's back stories had ten times more screentime and complexity to them.
Zero has always been a visible participant in the game.
One of the thing that makes Zero Escape great is to try to figure it out who Zero is before s/he's revealed.
When you see who Zero is in reality, is a slap in the face. A FUCK YOUJ. VLR is Irrelevant now, because of what happened in ZTD.
ZTD is nothing but a "Here's a timeline where you might live in peace. END"
Shitty game.
Hyperbole goes hand in hand.
It's either shit or it's the best thing ever. I realised that getting hung up about a single thing is pretty silly. Getting older ain't that bad, makes me appreciate the little things more in games.
In many ways I think the "solution" is as much as an easy way out as the most reasonable course of action. Assuming there's infinite timelines, then why not simply jump to the one without problems? (then again, we don't actually know this ^^')
Still, I can't help but feel disappointed as I had interpreted the timelines differently in VLR. To me, it was as if there was a limited set of timelines and Sigma now had to create an entirely new one never created before. Or at least that's how I remember it. In addition to this, "shifting" (was it actually called this in VLR? ZTD confused me with its morphogenetic field stuff) felt far too casual.
Still, I can't help but feel disappointed as I had interpreted the timelines differently in VLR. To me, it was as if there was a limited set of timelines and Sigma now had to create an entirely new one never created before. Or at least that's how I remember it. In addition to this, "shifting" (was it actually called this in VLR? ZTD confused me with its morphogenetic field stuff) felt far too casual.
thequickandthedead
Member
UDG isn't that bad....
Lumpy Onion
Member
I was pretty disappointed overall, but I loved the bits where you had to enter words/names to progress. Kind of a simple idea but I enjoyed seeing the reactions and racking my mind for possible answers.
Spieler Eins
Member
The game on its own is like a 7/10, but as a conclusion to VLR it simply fails. You know, the reason people clamored for its existence to begin with.
Never played Dangropa, but I keep hearing about 'Ultra Despair Girls". What's so bad about it?
EDIT: Also, I've trying to get rid of my copy of ZTD on craigslist because gamestop will only give me $10 for it. No one's biting though. Recommendations on how to unload the game for a decent price?
Neoleo2143
Member
The gameplay was changed from a visual Novel thriller to Third Person Shooter. In this regard it's nothing outstanding but it breaks up the narrative pacing more than I would have liked. There are some fun puzzles, it could have been interesting if a better developer used to TPS like Capcom made the game because there are some interesting ideas in the combat mechanics that the level design seldom exploits in an interesting way.
Narrative wise there's some concern over the treatment of mentally unstable children, I think this part of the game was poorly handled from a pacing standpoint, the actual material is there, just arranged poorly. Though the sexual assault child was a bit ... much. A little too on the nose.
Also the aesthetic is somewhat Bland for Danganronpa's neon colors.
The main relationship is alright, nothing outstanding but it is sweet and there's good chemistry between the two main characters.
Honestly, it's just a bit bland for how outlandish Danganronpa is usually. Though the ending sequence is all sorts of nonsense like you would expect from the series.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
As an overall game, no it doesn't. Zero Time Dilemma is certainly more enjoyable to play through than Ultra Despair Girls.
But from a narrative level, I think it's worse. Both games have bad endings, and nonsensical villain plots, but UDG at least has some amazing character interactions. And while ZTD's story has some really nice moments, they're largely undercut by the ridiculous ending and reveals, while as bad as UDG's ending is, it doesn't retroactively make Toko and Komaru's scenes together worse or anything.
GhostTrick
Banned
VLR isn't irrelevant. What happens in ZTD is because of VLR. That's what is complicated with timelines. VLR didn't ceased to exist, it exists in many other realities, with subtle changes too.
The whole point was to get a happy timeline and it happened. Isn't it why the game was supposed to happen ? I feel like a lot of people feel robbed to not have been the hero.
You can't shift at will. You can only do so in timeline or realities you actually exist. Each timeline is born from a choice. You can't make a timeline magically appear out of shifting.
TatteredHat
Member
Just finished it yesterday, still don't understand where Zero came from, suddenly a guy in a wheelchair appears who turns out to be the bad guy, I don't remember seeing him at all before the reveal.
Fragment system is way too fragmented to properly follow which part of the story you are actually playing through, the ending was lame too.
I am disappointed.
Fragment system is way too fragmented to properly follow which part of the story you are actually playing through, the ending was lame too.
I am disappointed.
GhostTrick
Banned
He was always here though and always refered as such. Numerous hints and characters acknowledges him during the game. Did you noticed that no one in C and D team knew about Sean when they saw him ? You can spot his shadow in numerous scenes. One instance for exemple, Sigma claims they also killed Q, who couldn't see or hear them coming to kill him.
He was always here and that's the great thing about this plot twist. There's a lot of ways you can interpret Q or even the fragment system, since it's basically the player, you also being Q. We always see the game through Q's eyes. All the cameras are also the reason for the cinematic views: Because Q/Player is not only watching them but also controlling them at times.
This was basically Sigma's plot twist taken to another level.
The only things that matters now in the VLR timeline is that Sigma and Phi went back. Nothing else matters.
-The terrorist organization is mentioned like one time. No whys. No whos. Just aliens.
-Kyle is gone, even tho' he was supposed to be in this game.
-VLR is an infinite loop.
-PEOPLE DIE in other timelines. What about them? They're human, just like the main participants from the main timeline. Solutions? More timelines xDDDDDD
-The WHOLE reason Sigman and Phi went back was to stop the virus from releasing. Yes, it kinda happens, but this way: "Old man creates a new timeline, fuck all of the others, it's an infinity loop."
VLR sets you up for something BIG. Shit's about to go down, left, clones, terrorist and some other shit. Instead, you get nothing.
https://youtu.be/Etz9m5RApxo?t=59
TatteredHat
Member
I did figure that you were looking from his perspective but it didn't feel as well done as when VLR did it with Sigma which did genuinely blow me away.
GhostTrick
Banned
As for aliens, it's not necessary aliens. At one point, Akane takes a famous exemple, being Back to the Future to explain the multiverse theory. She specifically mentions the DeLorean. Basically, there's only one Delorean despite multiple timelines. And the same can be said for the transporter. Which means it could basically come from the future.
People dies in other timelines, yes that's the whole point of ZTD and VLR. Basically, you're not getting a good ending, you're getting a good timeline. This is why you have the choice to shift or not at the end: Because the point is, someone is going to die anyway. There's multiple timelines in which each team dies. And that's what the transporter allows you to see: Sigma and Diana go back in time but they still found themselves dead. Basically, shifting doesn't change the future. That's what you're supposed to understand: You won't save the future. The Earth will still be doomed. You basically sent Young Sigma to a shit timeline and you saved your own conscious into the good timeline. But all of the others ? They still died.
Life is simply unfair.
Edit:
Also to add more, yes more timelines. That's the whole point though of the decision game: To spawn a shiton of timelines. Then again, it's basically like a lot of time travel stories: Multiverse theorie. It's pretty simple, if it was only one timeline, the future would be fixed at the very moment Sigma got back in time. But it didn't. Another exemple would be Dragon Ball Z, in which Trunks travel back in time and despite beating the Android didn't fixed his future at all.
Although I agree it's disappointing that Kyle just disappeared. I guess some things had to be rewrote and I suspect some elements had to be scrapped because of a lack of budget. It was also a 10 hour shorter game than VLR. I finished it in 18 hours, while it took me 28 hours for VLR.
As for Q, that's on the same level as Sigma on the cover or on the OAV. Mislead the player during marketing. The point was to make you think it was Quark.
Well, that's totally what I expected from ZTD, after VLR's ending. So not a problem for me.
Dayner_Kurdi
Banned
I just beat the game and here in my opinion of it, compare to the other two game, just game felt a lot more weaker, I think part of the problem is that you don't feel the weight of your decision, since you can freely jump between timeline at anytime and like nothing has ever happened, second problem is there is no time for characters buildup between each other, from the start each characters seem to know each other, we have 4 returned characters and the other 8 are new while keeping one of them off screen the whole time, I knew zero was one of the ten, and the game wont stop talking about the disable old man in wheelchair, so it come no surprise that he was zero.
my biggest disappointment is that there not a single scene to remember the game by compare the other two.
If they ever going to make a another sequel. they should introduce all new characters and stack with the old format.
my biggest disappointment is that there not a single scene to remember the game by compare the other two.
If they ever going to make a another sequel. they should introduce all new characters and stack with the old format.
https://twitter.com/Pain1227/status/762932061883736064
So Uchikoshi explained ? from VLR in a series of tweets to someone.
In short, Another Time End was meant to be metafiction (with "?" referring to the player and wasn't meant to be seen as canon).
So Uchikoshi explained ? from VLR in a series of tweets to someone.
In short, Another Time End was meant to be metafiction (with "?" referring to the player and wasn't meant to be seen as canon).
Eh, either way, it's plainly obvious that Zero Escape's story wasn't actually fleshed out to the point to warrant VLR's "to be continued," and that it's the fans' wish to see the story concluded that gave the opportunity to make ZTD, and thus force Uchikoshi to think of something that could follow up VLR.
If you think about it, 999, VLR, and ZTD are actually very disconnected stories that don't quite fit with each other. This isn't how a trilogy should be, especially one that's meant to be so story driven. A far cry from even the first Ace Attorney trilogy, where the games weren't really touted as having to support each other narratively, but it turns out they're very much intertwined in a neat way.
If you think about it, 999, VLR, and ZTD are actually very disconnected stories that don't quite fit with each other. This isn't how a trilogy should be, especially one that's meant to be so story driven. A far cry from even the first Ace Attorney trilogy, where the games weren't really touted as having to support each other narratively, but it turns out they're very much intertwined in a neat way.
Remembrance
Member
Is he seriously teasing that we will find out what happened to Kyle in 2028 real-time?
Yeah, I feel like any world-saving being done is just passing the hot apocalypse onto a different timeline's plate to handle. This is why I really wished they went more in the 2001: A Space Odyssey. At least that way, human civilization would be being sacrificed to reach some higher dimensional existence as a way for humanity to "reach its potential" or something.
The series already got so full of timey-wimey bullshit that I don't begrudge ZTD for ending the way it did. Everything about this game in particular builds up to a conclusion that actively works against the very idea that "true endings" where everyone survives is a good thing. I don't expect the game to ever get another true sequel because of it since it ballooned the possibilities out of proportion, and somehow still managed to conclusively "end" the story that began in the first game, even if it wasn't in the most satisfying way possible.
I very much enjoyed how the game subverted itself by making the major twist of the game a very meta-contextual one, and is moreso a critique on true endings which is something that Zero Escape has embraced a little too much in the past.
This is why I still solely place the onus of why ZTD ended up the way it did on VLR, and why I still like VLR the least out of all three games, even though I think that game has the best pacing out of all the games. Everything about the game is a joyride until the very ending when it just becomes a frustrating dump of exposition that would have been impossible to recount in one game alone. As much as the Zero Escape series has incredibly well written characters, much of it's way of writing and exposition is Metal Gear levels of bloat. I think that's the main reason the ending is so surreal to me, since Delta doesn't bother explaining things and basically tells the player "honestly, actually think about what you know across these last three games and figure it out yourself".
I very much enjoyed how the game subverted itself by making the major twist of the game a very meta-contextual one, and is moreso a critique on true endings which is something that Zero Escape has embraced a little too much in the past.
This is why I still solely place the onus of why ZTD ended up the way it did on VLR, and why I still like VLR the least out of all three games, even though I think that game has the best pacing out of all the games. Everything about the game is a joyride until the very ending when it just becomes a frustrating dump of exposition that would have been impossible to recount in one game alone. As much as the Zero Escape series has incredibly well written characters, much of it's way of writing and exposition is Metal Gear levels of bloat. I think that's the main reason the ending is so surreal to me, since Delta doesn't bother explaining things and basically tells the player "honestly, actually think about what you know across these last three games and figure it out yourself".
Funyarinpa
Member
999 and VLR aren't really that "inter"twined -999 was written without VLR in mind after all- but I'd argue that VLR took amazing advantage of being 999's sequel. The thing is, ZTD was supposed to be highly intertwined to VLR: the motivation for Radical 6, how the VLR timeline came to be, the history and people of Free The Soul- if ZTD managed to connect to VLR instead of going "oh btw Phi's the son of Sigma and Diana, and Delta is Brother is Zero and the real reason for all of this shit is actually some terrorist I don't know the identity of" in terms of VLR connections, it would have been a remarkably intertwined trilogy IMHO, especially since VLR's climax was structured around that.
2001? Isn't the bolded part (Arthur C. Clarke novel spoilers)
actually the ending of Childhood's End?
Fucking lmao if true but I think he's just joking.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
I ripped through this over five days. Just got the Platinum trophy and wanted to ask if that was it? Is that everything or are there additional fragments to see?
Overall I really liked it. Some of the puzzles were surprisingly quick/easy to get through, which was a little disappointing, but it definitely felt more coherent puzzle-wise than VLR did.
Story wise (Q Spoliers)
Overall I really liked it. Some of the puzzles were surprisingly quick/easy to get through, which was a little disappointing, but it definitely felt more coherent puzzle-wise than VLR did.
Story wise (Q Spoliers)
the Q=Delta thing kind of came out of nowhere, and struck me as a bit cheap. You're obviously led to think that Sean is Q but there's nothing to really suggest before the reveal that there's someone else present - the only hints being that Eric is freaking out about this strange child appearing but nobody in any other team ever asks who the fuck Q is, and the fact that if you put 'Sean' in for the 3 way stand off you get an error message rather than him shooting himself in his metal face.
LMAO, was a cop-out.
The multiverse thing was a pretty bad anyway. The moment they started to introduce over 9999 timelines VLR become pointless.
GhostTrick
Banned
Wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroEscape/comments/4qsmvu/ztd_spoilerslets_find_all_of_the_foreshadowing/
You have a hugeass list here of elements that were here.
That's the point though. You're supposed to understand that all the events you did in VLR are pointless. Basically, SHIFTers are just shifting the blame onto someone else. Then again, Akane used the exemple of Back to the Future, to explain her point: Basically, there's not one timeline, and Marty just stole the place of the other Marty. The same is applied here. All the events that happened in VLR happened, and nothing can change that.
Funyarinpa
Member
Zero Time Dilemma being an anagram of "me? I'm Zero. I'm Delta." is killing me (gotten from the aforementioned Reddit thread)
Sumio Mondo
Member
Uchikoshi left VLR ending wide open intentionally and really wanted to make ZTD happen. It's not really a situation where he felt "obliged to do it for the fans" he made it plainly obvious he wanted to do it many times on Twitter, hence the Twitter campaign and thanked fans for giving him the opportunity to do it. This really isn't a MGS2 situation where Kojima didn't want to do a sequel but had to due to fan pressure. Uchikoshi wanted to do it, he wasn't forced into doing anything.
He could have carried on those VLR plot points but it's obvious that he either forgot or just ignored those plot points. That, and I think he ran out of budget/time to do everything he wanted to. Game was on a shoe string budget after all.
GhostTrick
Banned
Some are far fetched, but some are definitely on point.
Game was 10 hour shorter than VLR. So yes, I guess they didn't had time and budget to explain more elements.
MudoSkills
Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
Benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Some of these are clearly written to be ambiguous - which is good writing. With point 11 you could easily interpret that as being Sean because he had the helmet on, with 14 it could easily be 'but he shouldn't vote because he's a child' - which is how I interpreted them at the time.
The real question I want answered is who chained up Gab?
Edit: Also does Plat = seen everything?
Sumio Mondo
Member
I remember him stating somewhere that he scrapped his original concept for the sequel to VLR. If he made ZTD straight after VLR as originally intended it would have been a very different game, I bet. I'm imagine it would have been closer to VLR than what we got but I enjoyed what we got for the most part personally, just as the conclusion to the series it falls short. I kinda like that each game is its own thing rather than just a direct sequel in most ways. It's hard to phrase exactly. VLR is still my favourite.
No, I'm not saying that he didn't want to do it. Clearly, Uchikoshi wanted to. What I'm saying is that the VLR cliffhanger was unwarranted from a narrative perspective, because what would follow was very obviously not planned, going from what we know in Zero Time Dilemma. There was absolutely no way that this plot's resolution was thought out in advance when VLR was being made.
A cliffhanger like that needs to feel earned. I don't think ZTD achieves that at all.
GhostTrick
Banned
No need to phrase it, I agree. VLR is my favorite one. I'm just annoyed that VLR and ZTD both were lessened because of marketing reasons.
VLR was toned down for the japanese audience and ZTD was tight on budget. I can understand how for some people, ZTD may not be the ending they hoped for, in the sense as it doesn't conclude the story or bring an end to VLR's events. But I feel like these people missed the point: There'll never be a positive ending to VLR's events, because SHIFTers powers isn't to change the timeline, just to steal another version's of them timeline. My only disappointement is Phi being Sigma and Diana's daughter and Delta's brother. I feel like this was shoehorned and it makes Phi far less mysterious. Same for the Decision Game happening so that Delta and Phi can exist. Although for that one, I guess that's basically "Egg or Chicken, what came first ?"
This is far from the only disappointing element in ZTD.
Are you actually satisfied about what the origins of Radical-6 turned out to be, after everything that happened in VLR and how crucial it was to that game's story? What about "alien technology"? What about in a game of paranoia and suspicion, no one from Q team ever batting an eye in Q's direction? It's stuff like that.