I suppose the same way Eric and Mira were transmitted to the winning coin flip reality.
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[SPOILERS] Zero Time Dilemma Spoiler Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]
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KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I assume the transporter would work for that, similar to how Delta and Phi were sent back in time as babies.
Spieler Eins
Member
It also somewhat fits Schrödinger's Cat (not to mention two persons having room), since when you're inside the transporter, you could be on any ,,side". This is the kind of stuff that should have been in the post-game notes, instead of that weird fanfic that feels like it was written in half an hour and not even given one proofread, lol. My god, the ending is rushed on so many levels.
TheGeniusArcana
Member
Does anyone know how Phi was able to take part in VLR at all since she was the source of Radical-6 in that timeline? They didn't have Axelavir at that point, and she probably would have died way before the scene where Akane says Phi showed up a few days prior to her conversation with Sigma at the epilogue of VLR.
I'm surprised there's a lot of people who, like me, liked Eric.
It's my biggest personal con with the whole game outside of many of the characters feeling underutilized.
It's my biggest personal con with the whole game outside of many of the characters feeling underutilized.
"Probably" is the operative word. Radical-6 has a 75% fatality rate, so it's entirely possible she survived the first round of the infection while still passing it on to others.
I am curious, since I gave my ranking of all the characters in the series, how others rank them. Idk if anyone else wants to contribute to that sort of ranking or not.
I'm probably one of the few who didn't like K at all. : P
Edit: Mine was:
Santa > Seven > Ten > Dio > Luna > Eric > Snake > Diana > Sean > Gab > Zero The Third > Phi (VLR) > G-OLM > Ace > Sigma (VLR) > The Funyarinpa > Carlos > Jumpy (999) > Delta > Clover (999) >Lotus > Akane (999) > Phi (ZTD) > Sigma (ZTD) > Quark > Akane (VLR) > Junpei (ZTD) > Akane (ZTD) > K > Mira > Clover (VLR) > Alice > 9th Man.
I included a few characters like G-OLM that I'm sure some people won't, heh.
I'm probably one of the few who didn't like K at all. : P
Edit: Mine was:
Santa > Seven > Ten > Dio > Luna > Eric > Snake > Diana > Sean > Gab > Zero The Third > Phi (VLR) > G-OLM > Ace > Sigma (VLR) > The Funyarinpa > Carlos > Jumpy (999) > Delta > Clover (999) >Lotus > Akane (999) > Phi (ZTD) > Sigma (ZTD) > Quark > Akane (VLR) > Junpei (ZTD) > Akane (ZTD) > K > Mira > Clover (VLR) > Alice > 9th Man.
I included a few characters like G-OLM that I'm sure some people won't, heh.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Did we play the same games? Sigma in ZTD is completely different from the almost always horny Sigma from VLR.
And Junpei practically being a different character makes perfect sense for obvious reasons.
I'm really fucking pissed at the direction of the games after 999.
VLR was fine but the artstyle just never clicked with me. But the story and setting itself were just too grand and not what I expected from a 999 sequel. I mean the game itself is fine and the story and twists are really well written but just not what I wanted.
But ZTD literally pisses on everything that made the series great for me. Absolutely ridiculous twists and Deus Ex Machina. I don't care how many foreshadowings were in the game, but Q = Delta was just an awful twist. How the fuck did the Q team just ignore him for all the game. How the fuck a deaf, blind and paralyzed person is not suspicious. Also MINDHACK. I couldn't stop laughing when he said it. Literally not a single hint was given in the whole trilogy about such power existing. Also the characters in ZTD just feel like different characters all together from the previous entries. I'm sure this has been discussed before but the 3D models look awful. A visual novel style like the previous games would have been perfect. Biggest disappointments for me were Akane and Junpei. They just didn't act natural. I mean Akane fucking devised a grand murdering plan a year ago and somehow she sounds like a normal innocent girl. I mean she already did that in 999 but now that her identity is known, she should at least act a bit more brutal. Also how the fuck does Junpei quit school and become such a great detective in less than year that he would get to infiltrate the headquarters of the biggest terrorist organization on the planet? The voice acting for Junpei and Akane were awful. The resolution of the relationship between Akane and Junpei was one of the main things that I looked forward to but ZTD just made hate them both. I literally couldn't stand playing with C team because of them. And then we have all these SHIFTing. It just doesn't make sense to me. So you're in danger and you shift to another timeline. Now your other self from another timeline gets killed. I mean what the fuck. The concept of transmitting thoughts through morphogenic field was very well done in 999 but VLR and ZTD just fucked it up and made it nonsensical. And I really fucking hated the "Friendship conquers all" ending scene. Not to mention Sigma and Phi, the best characters from the game barely get any screen time. Just a mess all around.
999 should have been left alone.
VLR was fine but the artstyle just never clicked with me. But the story and setting itself were just too grand and not what I expected from a 999 sequel. I mean the game itself is fine and the story and twists are really well written but just not what I wanted.
But ZTD literally pisses on everything that made the series great for me. Absolutely ridiculous twists and Deus Ex Machina. I don't care how many foreshadowings were in the game, but Q = Delta was just an awful twist. How the fuck did the Q team just ignore him for all the game. How the fuck a deaf, blind and paralyzed person is not suspicious. Also MINDHACK. I couldn't stop laughing when he said it. Literally not a single hint was given in the whole trilogy about such power existing. Also the characters in ZTD just feel like different characters all together from the previous entries. I'm sure this has been discussed before but the 3D models look awful. A visual novel style like the previous games would have been perfect. Biggest disappointments for me were Akane and Junpei. They just didn't act natural. I mean Akane fucking devised a grand murdering plan a year ago and somehow she sounds like a normal innocent girl. I mean she already did that in 999 but now that her identity is known, she should at least act a bit more brutal. Also how the fuck does Junpei quit school and become such a great detective in less than year that he would get to infiltrate the headquarters of the biggest terrorist organization on the planet? The voice acting for Junpei and Akane were awful. The resolution of the relationship between Akane and Junpei was one of the main things that I looked forward to but ZTD just made hate them both. I literally couldn't stand playing with C team because of them. And then we have all these SHIFTing. It just doesn't make sense to me. So you're in danger and you shift to another timeline. Now your other self from another timeline gets killed. I mean what the fuck. The concept of transmitting thoughts through morphogenic field was very well done in 999 but VLR and ZTD just fucked it up and made it nonsensical. And I really fucking hated the "Friendship conquers all" ending scene. Not to mention Sigma and Phi, the best characters from the game barely get any screen time. Just a mess all around.
999 should have been left alone.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Sigma felt pretty similar to me, aside from not being as pervy as he was in VLR. I was expecting us to get a much more calculating character, but he mostly feels like the same guy. Even the whole "old man in a young man's body" is barely touched on at all. He doesn't really act like a 67 year old during most of the game.
Junpei's reasons for being a different character are pretty silly, though. Rather than it being anything to do with finding out the truth about Akane or dealing with the events of 999, it's just "I saw some shit as a detective". It's kind of a cheap reason. And he just feels so different, and honestly unlikable.
I would have been okay with it if he had more of an arc dealing with this, but mostly Junpei is just an asshole all game, aside from the one or two times near the end where he suddenly stops being one without too much leading up to it.
In general, I found all the participants in the decision game to be very flat. Which was extremely offensive to me because a lot of them were returning characters with extensive history. They're never more than just their one gimmick and it made it really hard for me to care about them at all. Sigma was the worst. He was just an angry dude 95% of the time. Anyone who hasn't played VLR would not believe that he's an incredibly intelligent person.
Overall I heavily disliked this game. It did some very clever things but not enough for me to get enjoyment out of it.
Overall I heavily disliked this game. It did some very clever things but not enough for me to get enjoyment out of it.
Remembrance
Member
I think his age was mostly conveyed by acting grumpy and using big words a lot. Which isn't much, really.
I don't think he ever behaved like Young Sigma except in the locker room when he started making cat puns again, wearing a bucket on his head and getting into the shower with Diana repeatedly. I thought that would go somewhere, but it never did.
Ranking characters:
9) Mira. A weak, generic antagonist who is responsible for way too much despite having little prominence or depth. Her design sucks. Her ending sucks. Character just sucks.
8) Eric. Had significant potential, but he literally does not (and arguably cannot) develop at all. Mostly used as a plot device in the latter parts of the game (shotgun-kun).
7) Diana. Diana is a very strong and compelling character; I just don't like her that much.
6) Phi. Nowhere near as amazing as she was in VLR. She's just cool I guess.
5) Sean. Arguably the most compelling character in the entire game. Pretty much keeps Q team afloat, and is responsible for some of the game's best moments. (ie: Happy End)
4) Akane. They mixed elements of her character from 999/VLR and the result was... strange. When she's not being a massive hypocrite, she goes on psychotic rampages (chainsaw-chan) and is generally an awkward and unintentionally funny character. Easily the most entertain character by far.
3) Sigma. Really strong character (have you seen those muscles) and pretty much has all of the best moments in the story. His only flaw is that he doesn't really act like his 67 year old self from VLR.
2) Carlos. For murrica. The protagonist™. He's not particular deep, but his personality and backstory make it easy to root for him. He's just an awesome dude surrounded by profoundly shitty people making the best of his current situation. Best theme song.
1) Junpei. He's super duper good now. Junpei graduated from your dime a dozen VN protag (strong sense of justice was an actual character trait used to describe him. yuck) into an actual character. Sure he's acerbic and insufferable, but who wouldn't given his situation. I just think his reaction to events in the game are super natural, and pretty much something a regular person would that. So I guess in that sense, he's also a really good audience surrogate to? There's also this:
9) Mira. A weak, generic antagonist who is responsible for way too much despite having little prominence or depth. Her design sucks. Her ending sucks. Character just sucks.
8) Eric. Had significant potential, but he literally does not (and arguably cannot) develop at all. Mostly used as a plot device in the latter parts of the game (shotgun-kun).
7) Diana. Diana is a very strong and compelling character; I just don't like her that much.
6) Phi. Nowhere near as amazing as she was in VLR. She's just cool I guess.
5) Sean. Arguably the most compelling character in the entire game. Pretty much keeps Q team afloat, and is responsible for some of the game's best moments. (ie: Happy End)
4) Akane. They mixed elements of her character from 999/VLR and the result was... strange. When she's not being a massive hypocrite, she goes on psychotic rampages (chainsaw-chan) and is generally an awkward and unintentionally funny character. Easily the most entertain character by far.
3) Sigma. Really strong character (have you seen those muscles) and pretty much has all of the best moments in the story. His only flaw is that he doesn't really act like his 67 year old self from VLR.
2) Carlos. For murrica. The protagonist™. He's not particular deep, but his personality and backstory make it easy to root for him. He's just an awesome dude surrounded by profoundly shitty people making the best of his current situation. Best theme song.
1) Junpei. He's super duper good now. Junpei graduated from your dime a dozen VN protag (strong sense of justice was an actual character trait used to describe him. yuck) into an actual character. Sure he's acerbic and insufferable, but who wouldn't given his situation. I just think his reaction to events in the game are super natural, and pretty much something a regular person would that. So I guess in that sense, he's also a really good audience surrogate to? There's also this:
lucablight
Member
I really liked the game but I wish there were more original music tracks rather than primarily being remixes from the prequels.
TheGeniusArcana
Member
Neoleo2143
Member
I don't think it's ever stated you can only be infected once? It's true Axelavir was made from people who had built up immunity but the game never goes into detail about where that immunity came from.
Hey, I'm not saying that isn't what it is.
Could be. Apparently there's a file somewhere in ZTD specifying that the 6 billion death count was mostly because of the reactor explosions, not Radical-6 itself.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
I'm playing the game again.
On my first play through I didn't pick up on just how much damage Mira actually did by killing Eric's mother.
I mean she's the reason the real Sean died too since the surgeon that was supposed to save him jumped into the taxi that crashed that was meant for Akane's father, but because Akane's father got arrested for something he didn't even do he missed his taxi.
MIRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
On my first play through I didn't pick up on just how much damage Mira actually did by killing Eric's mother.
I mean she's the reason the real Sean died too since the surgeon that was supposed to save him jumped into the taxi that crashed that was meant for Akane's father, but because Akane's father got arrested for something he didn't even do he missed his taxi.
MIRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
bishopcruz
Member
Life is unfair.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Indeed.
Someone in here mentioned that Mira probably didn't get injected with the memory erasing drug only in one timeline, but I think she never loses her memory. She probably really doesn't know who Zero's identity is, but she's still essentially his accomplice as she can do whatever the hell she wants.
The more I actually think about it, the more evil she becomes. She's so freaking manipulative, untrusting and just plain evil. She's ruined so many lives!
I kinda like that.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Doesn't phi immediately go in to a stasis pod?
She'd be unconscious until she wakes up years later for vlr.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
You know what doesn't make sense? Why the hell would Diana put Phi on the elevator and cause Radical-6 to spread? It could have been avoided. : /
calc84maniac
Member
Because that's what leads to the VLR history and causes her to blame herself for the six billion deaths? Best not to read into it too much.
And in the end, Phi and Sigma were saved by her actions.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Or why sigma and phi didn't just jump back again and not set the bomb in that timeline, or go back in time just a little with the knowledge that they need to stay the heck away from Mira.
They were trying to stop radical 6 from spreading and just found out exactly how it got out.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
I know it leads to the VLR history. It still could have been avoided, which was what Sigma, Phi and Akane's main goal was! The terrorist didn't even exist in that timeline too! They would have been all good.
This too. Sigma should have gone back in time and simply overpowered her and took Radical-6 from her.
I think that makes sense. Diana is extremely kind. "People say it's a fault of mine." Combined with Phi being her daughter and some subconscious knowledge of that, I don't think the scenario is that outlandish. The whole reason Diana decided to go to Dcom was to isolate herself from her ex, since she always forgave him for any punishment she received from him because "I love you so much, Diana..."
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Ok, but then why didn't Sigma simply jump back in time and kill/knock out Mira so Phi doesn't get injected?
It has everything to do with Diana being the kindest person in the entire world. She couldn't bear leaving Phi behind, so up they went. Even knowing that billions of people will die as a consequence doesn't change things.
It wouldn't have mattered anyways. All of the events that happen in the game still happen - they just split off into separate universes which (mostly) no longer interact with the original one. Jumping just preserves their present consciousness, but you get most of that effect from the morphogenetic field anyways.
calc84maniac
Member
First of all, the VLR timeline is absolutely necessary to exist for there to be a future Sigma consciousness to send back. It is inevitable. Any timeline shifting to "avoid" it would just move your consciousness to another timeline.
And what do you mean, the terrorist didn't exist? The only reason the terrorist isn't a threat in that timeline was because of the Radical-6 outbreak! If the outbreak was avoided, the terrorist would be a real problem.
Linkstrikesback
Member
It absolutely mattered. The entire reason Sigma and Phi were even there was to for them to get to a timeline where they managed to stop radical 6 getting out. They found out exactly how it got out. Then rather than jump back 30 minutes and split the timeline again and fix it, they decided "Well I hope the next sigma and phi have better luck", which is pretty silly all things considered.
But it doesn't matter because they don't actually undo anything in these games (other than 999). All of the events still happen in one of these universes, even if they are avoided in others. Besides, the effects of stopping the release of Radical-6 still happen - they just happen on a different path. The characters in the "good" ending can still access the morphogenetic field and figure it out from there.
Another point here is that SHIFT can only be activated if the characters are in immediate danger. They weren't in immediate danger at the time, so it might well not have been an option.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
According to the Zero Escape Wiki, Brother in ZTD is the same Brother that was mentioned in VLR. Which makes a lot more sense to me than him being two different people. Here's the quote:
"Uchikoshi revealed he's still alive by 2074 (the time of the Nonary Game: Ambidex Edition and Virtue's Last Reward): "Hes still alive. Whether he's alive using secret powers related to his ESPer abilities or he just had the best doctors because of his financial stability to keep him alive doesnt matter, but he is for sure still alive. According to one theory, there are rumors that his body as a whole had time slipped to another time."
And here's a bonus fact:
"Delta has purple colored eyes, possibly as a result of his modified superhuman genes. Oddly enough, Phi has blue eyes, not purple eyes. Which of course delivers a hint to Diana's and Sigma's X-Passes being: Blue and Red therefore referring to the mix of both gives purple."
Thanks for explaining that. Your post actually makes sense to me. I seem to keep on forgetting small details. Things can get so confusing really quickly for me! >_<
"Uchikoshi revealed he's still alive by 2074 (the time of the Nonary Game: Ambidex Edition and Virtue's Last Reward): "Hes still alive. Whether he's alive using secret powers related to his ESPer abilities or he just had the best doctors because of his financial stability to keep him alive doesnt matter, but he is for sure still alive. According to one theory, there are rumors that his body as a whole had time slipped to another time."
And here's a bonus fact:
"Delta has purple colored eyes, possibly as a result of his modified superhuman genes. Oddly enough, Phi has blue eyes, not purple eyes. Which of course delivers a hint to Diana's and Sigma's X-Passes being: Blue and Red therefore referring to the mix of both gives purple."
Thanks for explaining that. Your post actually makes sense to me. I seem to keep on forgetting small details. Things can get so confusing really quickly for me! >_<
Linkstrikesback
Member
I assume brother used the clone machine repeatedly every 10 months to send himself to the future multiple times, so that he could still be alive, even as some of his bodies die.
TheGeniusArcana
Member
She went into the pod sometime during April 2029. The virus was an epidemic by then, which is why everything is messed up in the epilogue.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
Mira is the Jar Jar Binks of Zero Escape.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
I can't believe during my first play through I never realised that Gab was in three different spots AT THE SAME TIME! Obviously I now know he was always just in the one lounge, but how the hell did that not click?
Also, mind blown at Sean going back to try and unchain Delta and not Gab. That scene makes a lot more sense now!
She's one deadly little snail.
Also, mind blown at Sean going back to try and unchain Delta and not Gab. That scene makes a lot more sense now!
She's one deadly little snail.
Oh jeez, here we go. I respect your opinion, but GAFers should have a yearly limit on how many times they are allowed to used the term "Deus Ex Machina" lol. Just look up the definition please, this isn't one.
I'm not saying they are the final word/authority, but TVTropes has no mention whatsoever of Deus Ex Machina regarding this game, not even on the YMMV page. Ass Pull is mentioned on the YMMV page only, and they specifically point out that everything was foreshadowed, it just may feel "disingenuous" to some players.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Ugh, I can't find the art book with the prologue online anywhere. Has anyone read it? Care to share some details?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Gurthang may be wrong, but mentioning TVTropes completely invalidates your argument as well.
ss_lemonade
Member
So I was reading some VLR backstory to refresh my memory and remembered a particular scene where K was supposed to be sent back to Zero Time Dilemma's (inside "?"'s body I guess, whoever that was) timeline to help save the world or something. Any idea what that was about?
So what's the deal with Gab? Is it Kyle that couldn't shift into Sigma and instead got inside the dog? And is that why Delta shot the Gab, to let Kyle shift back and explain things went wrong? Maybe I'm mismembering things, haven't replayed VLR.
It's kinda funny they let the dog laze around in the vents.
I really enjoyed my time with ZTD. But I kinda wanted it to be more. A bit of fanservice. Like Mira walking around in the robes killing everyone. Delta donning the Zero outfit. History of 1904 Phi and Delta. And letting the final decision game play out. Maybe a good sappy C ending.
The cast was great. Sugita Carlos is best bro ever.
Kinda disappointed the final game didn't look like the key art. The moment in the game didn't look nearly as tense. Besides the bad endings are still tame.
I wonder if stuff changed. I went in expecting more explicit callbacks to 999 and VLR, but kinda became it's own game.
I'm excited for the 999 port actually, because I can't back to old standards. Besides good excuse to go through everything again.
It's kinda funny they let the dog laze around in the vents.
I really enjoyed my time with ZTD. But I kinda wanted it to be more. A bit of fanservice. Like Mira walking around in the robes killing everyone. Delta donning the Zero outfit. History of 1904 Phi and Delta. And letting the final decision game play out. Maybe a good sappy C ending.
The cast was great. Sugita Carlos is best bro ever.
Kinda disappointed the final game didn't look like the key art. The moment in the game didn't look nearly as tense. Besides the bad endings are still tame.
I wonder if stuff changed. I went in expecting more explicit callbacks to 999 and VLR, but kinda became it's own game.
I'm excited for the 999 port actually, because I can't back to old standards. Besides good excuse to go through everything again.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Anyone?
He was there to get the ball rolling where the three teams have to make the first decision. From then on he was just there to drive the point home that the whole game took place in one area.
Also he's there to actually convince dumb people (me) that he's possibly Zero. Like seriously, he's always goddamn stiff and he never barks. It's so fucking creepy.
Basileus777
Member
To be fair, Gab as Zero would make more sense than the twist we actually got.
It's actually a superposition of previous twists.
One is the perspective shift from 999 and the other is actually being an old man. That made the twist predictable.
And you get multiple clues. One being the bad ending where Sean can't figure out who's zero. You see a pool of blood where Delta should be sitting. Others from inputs you give Eric.
Anyway I see no reason why Delta would shoot Gab if it wasn't important somehow. Besides Gab was the best character.
Basileus777
Member
The amount of clues is completely irrelevant as it has little to do with why the twist is awful. I even figured it out before hand and it didn't make me like it any more, in fact I was actually hoping that my guess was wrong.