ZTD has huge, glaring problems, but this isn't one of them. VLR explicitly told you at the end that the third game would be all about preventing that timeline from happening. ZTD even has a timeline explaining exactly how VLR's timeline came to be. What exactly where you expecting?
This is far from the only disappointing element in ZTD.
Are you actually satisfied about what the origins of Radical-6 turned out to be, after everything that happened in VLR and how crucial it was to that game's story?
It didn't bothered me that much. Even thought it's sad it's been overshadowed, I feel like the point was more about humanity being wiped out rather than Radical-6. It was crucial in that timeline. Then again, ZTD is VLR sequel, but people should understand that VLR is just one of the multiple stories that happened after ZTD. Basically, you could developp a shiton of games unfolding ZTD's events. Basically, what people should understand is that what has been done can't be undone, and that the whole AB project was pointless because it's bound to happen in that timeline.
I can understand how for some people, ZTD may not be the ending they hoped for, in the sense as it doesn't conclude the story or bring an end to VLR's events. But I feel like these people missed the point: There'll never be a positive ending to VLR's events, because SHIFTers powers isn't to change the timeline, just to steal another version's of them timeline.
What does that have to do with major plotlines like Radical 6 and Kyle simply being dropped? Or the ending being an undercooked, completely nonsensical rehash of VLR? They were trained to shift in VLR so they could stop a religious fanatic, but in reality the religious fanatic just wanted to train them shift so they could stop another religious fanatic. Without futher build-up, this was just stupid. Also another halfbaked part of the ending is that, contrarious to your claims, they actually did force in some kind of definitive happy ending and it happened again without any kind of build-up. So Delta ,,really" motivated them to save the world (as if they haven't been before), so the world is now at peace, no one give's a shit about Mira being a murderer and here have some probably literally phoned-in post-game files about how they all lived happily ever after.
It didn't bothered me that much. Even thought it's sad it's been overshadowed, I feel like the point was more about humanity being wiped out rather than Radical-6. It was crucial in that timeline. Then again, ZTD is VLR sequel, but people should understand that VLR is just one of the multiple stories that happened after ZTD.
This point is moot because Zero keeps focusing on ,,6 billion people's lives on the stake" (i.e. not 8 billion). Yet apparently that's only the case in one out of a gazillion possible outcomes, in which Mira happens to be angry at Phi shortly before dying. Radical-6 being only important in one timeline could have been a good angle, but then the writing doesn't suggest that at all. It was like they only half remembered VLR.
No, I'm not saying that he didn't want to do it. Clearly, Uchikoshi wanted to. What I'm saying is that the VLR cliffhanger was unwarranted from a narrative perspective, because what would follow was very obviously not planned, going from what we know in Zero Time Dilemma. There was absolutely no way that this plot's resolution was thought out in advance when VLR was being made.
A cliffhanger like that needs to feel earned. I don't think ZTD achieves that at all.
Right. And that's where the disappointment sets in since VLR felt like such a good sequel to 999 for me. They tied together pretty damn well for me. ZTD on the other hand, did feel made up as it went along. It sounds like he got too obsessed with doing a conclusion that didn't really respect the prior games at all. We have what we have now though and just have to move on from it. Hopefully next time Uchikoshi doesn't leave such endings open for more sequels that he doesn't know how to resolve and decides to just do one and done storylines and if he does another "open ending" that it still feels mystifying enough for discussion but doesn't also feel too wide open for disappointment and a demand for a sequel, which, in all likelihood, will be another ZTD style ending that disappoints a large chunk of the fanbase.
What does that have to do with major plotlines like Radical 6 and Kyle simply being dropped? Or the ending being an undercooked, completely nonsensical rehash of VLR? They were trained to shift in VLR so they could stop a religious fanatic, but in reality the religious fanatic just wanted to train them shift so they could stop a religious fanatic. Without futher build-up, this was just stupid. Also another halfbaked part of the ending is that, contrarious to your claims, they actually did force in some kind of definitive happy and it happened again without any kind of build-up. So Delta ,,really" motivated them to save the world (as if they haven't been before), so the world is now at peace, no one give's a shit about Mira being a murderer and here have some probably literally phoned-in post-game files about how they all lived happily ever after.
This point is moot because Zero keeps focusing on ,,6 billion people's lives on the stake". Yet apparently that's only the case in one out of a gazillion possible outcomes, in which Mira happens to be angry at Phi shortly before dying.
Radical-6 hasn't been dropped though. It was still here but didn't get a prohiminant place. As for Kyle, I guess you can call this budget or change of plans. I dont feel like the ending is a rehash of VLR, even though Delta is a weak character IMO, the reveal was still nicely done.
And yes, I agree, some points felt weird such as the ones I highlighted or even Mira. Speaking of which, we learn she go to jail but it seems Sean gets her out of here to bring her to the transportation machine and prevent her first murder. Now this would be problematic for the serie since this is the timeline where everything starts
Although, no, there's no happy ending. Simply because VLR's events happened. They didn't saved the world. They saved their own ass. Worse than that, they sent countless versions of them to hell. Worst being Young Sigma, who's stuck in Old Sigma's body, in apocalypse
And even in their current timeline, they're motivated to save the world, but that's all. There'll be countless timelines and as long as they shift, there's no happy ending.
This is far from the only disappointing element in ZTD.
Are you actually satisfied about what the origins of Radical-6 turned out to be, after everything that happened in VLR and how crucial it was to that game's story? What about "alien technology"? What about in a game of paranoia and suspicion, no one from Q team ever batting an eye in Q's direction? It's stuff like that.
Boy, the way Radical 6 was addressed in ZTD was absolutely pathetic. After an entire game based around how it was critical that they go back in time to work out what caused Radical 6 and stop it, it felt like it was tacked on as an afterthought. "Oh, there was a vial of it in 1 of the rooms". What is it? Why was it in that test site? Was it discovered or created? If the latter, who created it and why? All swept under the rug. Don't even get me started on the reason for it being released.
I have to be honest, a lot of elements in ZTD make more sense if you assume Another End from VLR is non-canon. It mostly makes certain Team D scenes make sense. For one thing it doesn't include the notes about Sigma "caring about Kyle", but the actual ending of VLR and the prologue of ZTD makes Sigma come across a lot more as a desperate achiever and somewhat whack-job who just cares about finishing his mission.
If you assume Sigma became completely jaded and detached, it makes certain scenes like the scene where he dies in Diana's arms and recounts fondly upon the 40 years on the moon make more sense. Sigma probably felt an incredible level of regret for not having cherished the things he had which was the entire point about Junpei's biker speech in VLR - instead of obsessing about fixing the past he should have focused more about what he had and making his future more enjoyable. Not only that but it also makes Sigma and Diana falling for each other in D-End 2 feel more profound. Another End felt like it partially justified Sigma's actions a little bit too much in a "he's really not that bad of a guy" kind of way. But if you assume that VLR's ending was just his start of darkness then many elements in ZTD kind of allow him to have more moments of redemption.
Actually I just realize how silly it is that I kind of like ZTD even more now thanks to an element of VLR being rendered non-canon.
ZTD has huge, glaring problems, but this isn't one of them. VLR explicitly told you at the end that the third game would be all about preventing that timeline from happening. ZTD even has a timeline explaining exactly how VLR's timeline came to be. What exactly where you expecting?
As for aliens, it's not necessary aliens. At one point, Akane takes a famous exemple, being Back to the Future to explain the multiverse theory. She specifically mentions the DeLorean. Basically, there's only one Delorean despite multiple timelines. And the same can be said for the transporter. Which means it could basically come from the future.
People dies in other timelines, yes that's the whole point of ZTD and VLR. Basically, you're not getting a good ending, you're getting a good timeline. This is why you have the choice to shift or not at the end: Because the point is, someone is going to die anyway. There's multiple timelines in which each team dies. And that's what the transporter allows you to see: Sigma and Diana go back in time but they still found themselves dead. Basically, shifting doesn't change the future. That's what you're supposed to understand: You won't save the future. The Earth will still be doomed. You basically sent Young Sigma to a shit timeline and you saved your own conscious into the good timeline. But all of the others ? They still died.
Life is simply unfair.
Edit:
Also to add more, yes more timelines. That's the whole point though of the decision game: To spawn a shiton of timelines. Then again, it's basically like a lot of time travel stories: Multiverse theorie. It's pretty simple, if it was only one timeline, the future would be fixed at the very moment Sigma got back in time. But it didn't. Another exemple would be Dragon Ball Z, in which Trunks travel back in time and despite beating the Android didn't fixed his future at all.
Of course, now Delta's plan makes absolutely no sense. Nothing he does makes any sense! Worse, he knows it doesn't make sense because he rather explicitly says that the 'Delta's from other histories' aren't him.
Add to that, the time loop is...bizarre....even if his goal was 'to be born,' how the heck did the timeline ever start, especially with the fact that the decision game otherwise made no sense! I guess he just had to have magic powers.
His motivations are complex indeed: z = a+bi complex.
There's no solution. That's the whole point. If you were expecting an ending where they get back to the timeline and saved the world, preventing it from happening and kicking's FTS's butt, you will be disappointed for sure.
There's two moments to understand what it is all about: Tenmyouji's speech in VLR about the Biker thing and Akane's speech in ZTD about multiverse with Back to the Future.
Of course, now Delta's plan makes absolutely no sense. Nothing he does makes any sense! Worse, he knows it doesn't make sense because he rather explicitly says that the 'Delta's from other histories' aren't him.
Add to that, the time loop is...bizarre....even if his goal was 'to be born,' how the heck did the timeline ever start, especially with the fact that the decision game otherwise made no sense! I guess he just had to have magic powers.
His motivations are complex indeed: z = a+bi complex.
That's the point though. You're supposed to understand that all the events you did in VLR are pointless. Basically, SHIFTers are just shifting the blame onto someone else. Then again, Akane used the exemple of Back to the Future, to explain her point: Basically, there's not one timeline, and Marty just stole the place of the other Marty. The same is applied here. All the events that happened in VLR happened, and nothing can change that.
No, what I am saying is that VLR Akane and Sigma wasted their time.
The multi-timelines nature of the setting completely undermine the characters struggles and make them look like morons.
VLR makes you think the apocalypse is this huge deal, then you play ZTD and you realize because of the very nature of the setting, everything is essentially pointless.
No, what I am saying is that VLR Akane and Sigma wasted their time.
The multi-timelines nature of the setting completely undermine the characters struggles and make them look like morons.
VLR makes you think the apocalypse is this huge deal, then you play ZTD and you realize because of the very nature of the setting, everything is essentially pointless.
Yes they did. I mean, yes, apocalypse is a huge deal. And it can't be changed. So basically, Akane and Sigma wasted their entire life. Worst, they wasted other Sigma and Akane's life by sending them to the crap timeline.
I'm being facetious but in general VLR pretty much detailed in its very long ending sequence that ZTD was going to happen in this manner; they just weren't sure about the exact details.
Of course, now Delta's plan makes absolutely no sense. Nothing he does makes any sense! Worse, he knows it doesn't make sense because he rather explicitly says that the 'Delta's from other histories' aren't him.
Add to that, the time loop is...bizarre....even if his goal was 'to be born,' how the heck did the timeline ever start, especially with the fact that the decision game otherwise made no sense! I guess he just had to have magic powers.
His motivations are complex indeed: z = a+bi complex.
It's an extension of the Akane twist in 999. She is also a chicken-egg situation, the only difference being that the entire game focused on developing the morphogenetic field theory. It's safe to assume that the Transporter sends people back to virtually every other potential timeline where that Transporter exists.
Yeah, let's not say things we'll regret. For all its flaws, ZTD's sudden mentions of abuse do not get anywhere near the ridiculously badly handled territory of UDG's villains, which dragged the entire game down constantly. And even at its best, UDG was kinda boring; ZTD was at least entertaining when it was disappointing me.
Meanwhile: Uchikoshi's latest tweets about Kyle and ? have me angry in a way I didn't expect. Usually I'm just kinda annoyed by this stuff. I think it's because such an outright non-response while acting like it's an understandable full explanation, and because it still doesn't explain shit about Kyle? Hmm.
Talk about completely missing the point. I mean the whole point of ZTD was to essentially make VLR irrelevant so you could break away from that timeline.
That's exactly what was promised and delivered in ZTD. Your complaint doesn't even make any sense.
Sorry/notsorry I didn't really care about old man Sigma in young Sigma's body impregnating a bored Diana and having twins. Felt lazy, like most of this game.
Talk about completely missing the point. I mean the whole point of ZTD was to essentially make VLR irrelevant so you could break away from that timeline.
That's exactly what was promised and delivered in ZTD. Your complaint doesn't even make any sense.
Nowhere in VLR is mentioned that they would need to make a new timeline. If that was the point, they would travel back to when Sigma was captured and live another life.
The whole point of VLR was to travel back in time to stop a terrorist who is barely mentioned in ZTD xd. Like literally a line or two.
Guess what happened? Aliens, A Zero who is behind camera all the time, and a new (more) timeline xd.
No one is stopped, because as far as I know, in the fanfic notes, Junpei and Akane go on a journey to find him and stop him.
As a VLR continuation, is a crappy game. As a Zero Escape is probably a good game.
The only crazy thing missing in this game was Sigma becoming a super sayayin. I mean, at least I was expecting that, too. haha
Some of these are clearly written to be ambiguous - which is good writing. With point 11 you could easily interpret that as being Sean because he had the helmet on, with 14 it could easily be 'but he shouldn't vote because he's a child' - which is how I interpreted them at the time.
The real question I want answered is who chained up Gab?
Sorry/notsorry I didn't really care about old man Sigma in young Sigma's body impregnating a bored Diana and having twins. Felt lazy, like most of this game.
Nowhere in VLR is mentioned that they would need to make a new timeline. If that was the point, they would travel back to when Sigma was captured and live another life.
The whole point of VLR was to travel back in time to stop a terrorist who is barely mentioned in ZTD xd. Like literally a line or two.
Guess what happened? Aliens, A Zero who is behind camera all the time, and a new (more) timeline xd.
No one is stopped, because as far as I know, in the fanfic notes, Junpei and Akane go on a journey to find him and stop him.
As a VLR continuation, is a crappy game. As a Zero Escape is probably a good game.
The only crazy thing missing in this game was Sigma becoming a super sayayin. I mean, at least I was expecting that, too. haha
They couldn't travel back to when Sigma was captured and live another life in VLR. The timelines were in a constant loop and they could only break away from the Radical-6 timeline by doing everything they did in ZTD.
The whole 'LOL aliens' complaint is odd to me. Firstly, it allowed quite a lot of questions to be answered that probably wouldn't be answered without the transporter. Secondly, to me it didn't even feel out of place in a series with a talking AI rabbit, timeline jumping, robots and clones.
And If you're upset not knowing if they stopped the terrorist or not (surely they did) then I think you missed the whole point of the ending all together.
Nowhere in VLR is mentioned that they would need to make a new timeline. If that was the point, they would travel back to when Sigma was captured and live another life.
The whole point of VLR was to travel back in time to stop a terrorist who is barely mentioned in ZTD xd. Like literally a line or two.
Guess what happened? Aliens, A Zero who is behind camera all the time, and a new (more) timeline xd.
No one is stopped, because as far as I know, in the fanfic notes, Junpei and Akane go on a journey to find him and stop him.
As a VLR continuation, is a crappy game. As a Zero Escape is probably a good game.
The only crazy thing missing in this game was Sigma becoming a super sayayin. I mean, at least I was expecting that, too. haha
There's a thing you seem to forget though: In VLR, they didn't knew all the details of what was happening. Then again, a new timeline was bound to happen, that's how time travel works. If it was only one timeline, it would be fixed at the very moment Old Sigma was sent to his young body.
But the naive thing was to believe they could fix their own timeline. They can't. And that's the moral here. Then again, you should reread Tenmyouji's talk about the Biker thing in VLR, and Akane's explanation in ZTD. Things happened, and they can't be undone. The only thing shifting allows you is to create timeline by going to a certain point... And even then, you're basically stealing someone's place in that timeline.
The creation of more timeline isn't a deus ex machina, because the point is to understand things happened and they can't be undone.
I liked Zero Time Dilemma but after reading Uchikoshi's tweets regarding Kyle not being canon I really wish he hadn't been added to the epilogue of Virtue's last reward.
Honestly that's an explanation I am okay with. It was particularly interesting that Another Time End was added because of the earthquake in Japan and not wanting to leave VLR ending on the explosion. The metafiction explanation actually makes sense with this.
On top of that, I think a lot of people forget that the guy is human, and often likes to give answers to things the player's interpretation. In both the 999 and VLR Q&A's he did this many times. It all ties in with the ending of ZTD: It's how you interpreted it. Did Carlos shoot Delta or let him go?
ZTD has huge, glaring problems, but this isn't one of them. VLR explicitly told you at the end that the third game would be all about preventing that timeline from happening. ZTD even has a timeline explaining exactly how VLR's timeline came to be. What exactly where you expecting?
I just wanted to add to what others have said that I thought Radical-6 breaking out is a foregone conclusion and that the third game would be about finding that slim chance, rare opportunity to stop it and create at least one timeline where it doesn't happen. Instead, it's the opposite - there is a single timeline in which it is released in a fairly convoluted scenario where ultimately it's Diana who releases Radical-6 to the world fully aware what she is doing and bemoaning herself while she is doing it. It's harder for me to imagine how it could be though of as a decent follow-up to the VLR plot thread given how glossed over and botched it is.
The problem is that ZTD makes it look like if that Akane and Sigma spent the rest of their lives smoking pot they would have achieved the same results. Actually scratch that, probably less people would have died even!
999: There is one timeline. Other timelines may exist, but they are essentially what if. There is one Akane and she naturally wants to save herself. So we naturally want her to live. The concept of shifting isn't introduced.
VLR: The concept of multiple timelines is introduced. We learn that "every choice leads to something new", but given how Radical 6 is treated, we are meant to think it is some kind of inescapable fate for humanity (think When They Cry series), so Akane spending 40 years of her life to try to "fix" the world make sense even if she personally won't be benefit from it.
ZTD: You get a timeline! I get a timeline! Everyone gets a timeline! Sure, the concept was introduced in VLR, but not to this degree. Turns out Radical 6 isn't really a treat, but more like an after-though of the whole thing. It's not an "inescapable fate for humanity". We learn that Eric's mom taking the left road ultimately doomed everyone, but this also means in some other timelines she took the right road and everyone lived a different life.
The moment Uchikoshi wrote that "every choice leads to a different timeline" he basically made the whole of VLR and ZRD pointless. Akane can't save the world, somewhere in the whole multiverse plenty of worlds in which the terrorist isn't born or Radical 6 isn't released must already exist! (Of course this also means plenty of worlds in which humanity is dead also exist too)
The whole 'LOL aliens' complaint is odd to me. Firstly, it allowed quite a lot of questions to be answered that probably wouldn't be answered without the transporter. Secondly, to me it didn't even feel out of place in a series with a talking AI rabbit, timeline jumping, robots and clones.
I don't know how there can be anyone who is satisfied with aliens suddenly being used as a plot device in a storyline when they are not correctly foreshadowed. Aliens are a lazy plot enabler, a case of "shit, we need to write in a way for X crazy thing to happen, let's just say alien technology because lol you can't say it's unrealistic". They have literally no importance to the plot aside from writing a complex excuse for how Phi could potentially be Sigma's daughter (which I refuse to believe was originally planned, considering how they only threw that "oh, I actually have red hair" line in this game and never even hinted at it in VLR, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey nonsense like her mother's brooch being her own brooch).
The problem is that ZTD makes it look like if that Akane and Sigma spent the rest of their lives smoking pot they would have achieved the same results. Actually scratch that, probably less people would have died even!
999: There is one timeline. Other timelines may exist, but they are essentially what if. There is one Akane and she naturally wants to save herself. So we naturally want her to live. The concept of shifting isn't introduced.
VLR: The concept of multiple timelines is introduced. We learn that "every choice leads to something new", but given how Radical 6 is treated, we are meant to think it is some kind of inescapable fate for humanity (think When They Cry series), so Akane spending 40 years of her life to try to "fix" the world make sense even if she personally won't be benefit from it.
ZTD: You get a timeline! I get a timeline! Everyone gets a timeline! Sure, the concept was introduced in VLR, but not to this degree. Turns out Radical 6 isn't really a treat, but more like an after-though of the whole thing. It's not an "inescapable fate for humanity". We learn that Eric's mom taking the left road ultimately doomed everyone, but this also means in some other timelines she took the right road and everyone lived a different life.
The moment Uchikoshi wrote that "every choice leads to a different timeline" he basically made the whole of VLR and ZRD pointless. Akane can't save the world, somewhere in the whole multiverse plenty of worlds in which the terrorist isn't born or Radical 6 isn't released must already exist! (Of course this also means plenty of worlds in which humanity is dead also exist too)
Basically this. But I feel like there's more to it than more timeline. It's also the SHIFTing ability that is a problem. Basically, SHIFTing isn't only useless to solve the whole problem, but it basically take an innocent version of you and throw it to a shitty timeline. Basically, Young Sigma is doomed
Akane can't save HER world. But I guess her wish was just to spawn a timeline in which all of this doesn't happen.
I don't know how there can be anyone who is satisfied with aliens suddenly being used as a plot device in a storyline when they are not correctly foreshadowed. Aliens are a lazy plot enabler, a case of "shit, we need to write in a way for X crazy thing to happen, let's just say alien technology because lol you can't say it's unrealistic". They have literally no importance to the plot aside from writing a complex excuse for how Phi could potentially be Sigma's daughter (which I refuse to believe was originally planned, considering how they only threw that "oh, I actually have red hair" line in this game and never even hinted at it in VLR, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey nonsense like her mother's brooch being her own brooch).
I don't think we should take "Aliens" as "Aliens". I'll send it back to Back to the Future again. If you seen the movie, do you remember what Marty is taken for when he makes his first time travel ? An alien. The transporter is basically the DeLorean. You can basically consider it a deus ex machina, but it's been basically left in the future.
Although I agree, I didn't liked the Phi twist. This felt... forced. And I don't like "Egg-Chicken" dilemmas, because I fail to envision them. Especially after the mystery all around her in VLR.
I don't think we should take "Aliens" as "Aliens". I'll send it back to Back to the Future again. If you seen the movie, do you remember what Marty is taken for when he makes his first time travel ? An alien. The transporter is basically the DeLorean. You can basically consider it a deus ex machina, but it's been basically left in the future.
If you're assuming it's far future civilisation's creation that makes even less sense. For starters, why did they send it back to the past? Secondly, how did they send it back? The machine is huge, and their technology only allows copies to be sent. Third, assuming it was sent back from a timeline at the end of the long chain that resulted in either Radical 6 being released on every human dead from a terrorist, who was actually alive to develop that technology?
That's just getting into insane territory. It's fair to assume that alien device is meant to be taken at face value - lol aliens. I don't give the writers the benefit of the doubt to assume they planned out any more regarding the topic after ZTD's storyline.
If you're assuming it's far future civilisation's creation that makes even less sense. For starters, why did they send it back to the past? Secondly, how did they send it back? The machine is huge, and their technology only allows copies to be sent. Third, assuming it was sent back from a timeline at the end of the long chain that resulted in either Radical 6 being released on every human dead from a terrorist, who was actually alive to develop that technology?
That's just getting into insane territory. It's fair to assume that alien device is meant to be taken at face value - lol aliens.
Why did they send it back to the past ? Sometimes, you don't need complexe motives.
Then again, I'll take Back to the Future as an exemple, where Doc left the DeLorean in the 3rd movie. Basically, if anyone, for any reason used the transporter to get there, they left it for some reason.
for me, it doses not live up to sudoku from the first game nor the few amusing scenes from the 2nd one, maybe because I didn't felt connected to Diana or that Sigma but that might just be me.
Can you even send the transporter back in time? We know it's a very complicated process due to how many restrictions have to be fulfilled (resources used, recharge time) and, what is more important for this, a transporter needs to exist in the past to be used. It's a case of time travelling existing, but only from the point the device was invented onwards. You can't send something back in time before the transporter was conceived because there is nothing there to receive data.
So even if we might deliberate the device was created by future humans, they might not be able to send it back in time because they don't have the means to do just that.
Can you even send the transporter back in time? We know it's a very complicated process due to how many restrictions have to be fulfilled (resources used, recharge time) and, what is more important for this, a transporter needs to exist in the past to be used. It's a case of time travelling existing, but only from the point the device was invented onwards. You can't send something back in time before the transporter was conceived because there is nothing there to receive data.
So even if we might deliberate the device was created by future humans, they might not be able to send it back in time because they don't have the means to do just that.
Arguably the biggest twist of ZTD is that the VLR timeline was the cause of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure, Radical-6 was made to be bigger of a deal in VLR than it is here, but that allows ZTD to kind of establish a new mystery that is more prevalent to itself.
It's kind of like in Danganronpa 2, and how
the game's first "twist" is immediately making light, reusing and mocking the first game's main endgame twist.
Already knowing in ZTD what we're "supposed to be doing" becomes deceptive as a result. It makes Sigma even more of a loon.
I don't know how there can be anyone who is satisfied with aliens suddenly being used as a plot device in a storyline when they are not correctly foreshadowed. Aliens are a lazy plot enabler, a case of "shit, we need to write in a way for X crazy thing to happen, let's just say alien technology because lol you can't say it's unrealistic". They have literally no importance to the plot aside from writing a complex excuse for how Phi could potentially be Sigma's daughter (which I refuse to believe was originally planned, considering how they only threw that "oh, I actually have red hair" line in this game and never even hinted at it in VLR, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey nonsense like her mother's brooch being her own brooch).
The Transporter was a great idea that was explained in a misguided manner. They didn't need to use aliens to explain it, they could have said that the technology was just old, from some advanced civilization where espers, shifting and the morphogenetic field was first discovered - or that the machine was a crude way to replicate the shifting theory. It's not hard to see them introduce an actual mechanism that allows for what is essentially quantum faxing, it just didn't need that particular justification.
Phi being Sigma's daughter is something I'm pretty sure had already been in plans for a while. For one thing, looking back at their dynamics in VLR it was incredibly deliberate how they were written in a way that didn't have any romantic subtext and almost seemed more parental, and Uchi explicitly chose to deconfirm the idea that they'd ever be a "couple" in VLR's FAQ page. Sure, you could take that to mean anything (the existence of Diana I suppose) but it seemed suspect to me that Uchi wanted to immediately dispel notions; plus Phi was even admitted to be a "mystery" to VLR in the game's Another Time ending. We know everything about Sigma's background but we knew nothing about her. I'd already been theorizing that Phi was going to end up being the daughter of Sigma and Diana for months before the game came out, or at the very least that the game was going to lead to a reveal that they're blood related, so my first thought when seeing the Transporter was "oh shit this only adds more fuel to the fire". I'm going to make a guess that the Transporter might have been the reason as to why companies like Cradle ended up taking interest in studying morphogenetic fields and conducting esper experiments.
Arguably the biggest twist of ZTD is that the VLR timeline was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure, Radical-6 was made to be bigger of a deal in VLR than it is here, but that allows ZTD to kind of establish a new mystery that is more prevalent to itself.
It's kind of like in Danganronpa 2, and how
the game's first "twist" is immediately making light and mocking the first game's main endgame twist.
Already knowing in ZTD what we're "supposed to be doing" becomes deceptive as a result. It makes Sigma even more of a loon.
The Transporter was a great idea that was explained in a misguided manner. They didn't need to use aliens to explain it, they could have said that the technology was just old, from some advanced civilization where espers, shifting and the morphogenetic field was first discovered - or that the machine was a crude way to replicate the shifting theory. It's not hard to see them introduce an actual mechanism that allows for what is essentially quantum faxing, it just didn't need that particular justification.
Since I'd already been theorizing that Phi was going to end up being the daughter of Sigma and Diana for months before the game came out, my first thought when seeing it was "oh shit this only adds more fuel to the fire". I'm going to make a guess that the Transporter might have been the reason as to why companies like Cradle ended up taking interest in studying morphogenetic fields and conducting esper experiments.
It's an extension of the Akane twist in 999. She is also a chicken-egg situation, the only difference being that the entire game focused on developing the morphogenetic field theory. It's safe to assume that the Transporter sends people back to virtually every other potential timeline where that Transporter exists.
In 999, Akane is in the past, and 'searches' through possible futures in order to find one with the correct solution. There is a paradox: 'How can she run the Nonary game before escaping the incinerator?' But ultimately, she exists first: Either there are a ton of 'non-equilibrium' timelines that set up 999, or, I believe that in 999 it was suggested that the futures she saw were 'possible' futures. It could be futurama style 'what-if' machine scenario, of a science fiction quantum mechanics scenario. The paradox is there, but there are potential outs.
With ZTD though...the heck? Delta was sent to the past using Alien technology. And apparently, his super powers relied on it happening in the Decision game, a game that made absolutely no sense outside of him being born to play, and doesn't even result in his birth in most timelines anyways - which makes an interesting point: If Delta isn't born in most timelines, how does he end up in them all? Unless, it's not a 1-1 correspondence because of the tree like structure in the timeline, in which case why isn't the teleporter constantly spitting out other people and things, or variations of Delta?
Delta makes a lot less sense than Akane. Also, if he can't see the future, how did he even know to run the Decision game in the first place? He only knew of alternate histories through shifters, but the only shifters were the ones in his game, and they only shifted during his game....so unless they tell someone in the future who shifts back to the far past and tell Delta how to run the game...it makes no sense!
The problem is that ZTD makes it look like if that Akane and Sigma spent the rest of their lives smoking pot they would have achieved the same results. Actually scratch that, probably less people would have died even!
999: There is one timeline. Other timelines may exist, but they are essentially what if. There is one Akane and she naturally wants to save herself. So we naturally want her to live. The concept of shifting isn't introduced.
VLR: The concept of multiple timelines is introduced. We learn that "every choice leads to something new", but given how Radical 6 is treated, we are meant to think it is some kind of inescapable fate for humanity (think When They Cry series), so Akane spending 40 years of her life to try to "fix" the world make sense even if she personally won't be benefit from it.
ZTD: You get a timeline! I get a timeline! Everyone gets a timeline! Sure, the concept was introduced in VLR, but not to this degree. Turns out Radical 6 isn't really a treat, but more like an after-though of the whole thing. It's not an "inescapable fate for humanity". We learn that Eric's mom taking the left road ultimately doomed everyone, but this also means in some other timelines she took the right road and everyone lived a different life.
The moment Uchikoshi wrote that "every choice leads to a different timeline" he basically made the whole of VLR and ZRD pointless. Akane can't save the world, somewhere in the whole multiverse plenty of worlds in which the terrorist isn't born or Radical 6 isn't released must already exist! (Of course this also means plenty of worlds in which humanity is dead also exist too)
I keep seeing these points being brought up time and time again and it doesn't make sense to me. Delta explained it very clearly that he needed to ensure the existence of Phi and himself along with other reasons. Jumping to another timeline where Eric's mom takes the right road or someone removing the snail from the road would ensure that the events of trilogy never take place which means that Sigma and Diana would never get together. So, saying that the games are pointless since there are many other timelines where Radical 6 or terrorists exist doesn't really hold ground because although it is true that those timelines exist, they don't benefit Delta in any way. In fact, I think if it wasn't for the introduction of Delta, then the whole trilogy will fall apart.
I keep seeing these points being brought up time and time again and it doesn't make sense to me. Delta explained it very clearly that he needed to ensure the existence of Phi and himself along with other reasons. Jumping to another timeline where Eric's mom takes the right road or someone removing the snail from the road would ensure that the events of trilogy never take place which means that Sigma and Diana would never get together. So, saying that the games are pointless since there are many other timelines where Radical 6 or terrorists exist doesn't really hold ground because although it is true that those timelines exist, they don't benefit Delta in any way.
I'm saying that Akane never had to start the whole thing in the first place. Her actions are completely pointless.
Even before VLR, an universe in which humanity survived already existed. There are probably billions of them!
Sure, we eventually learn that VLR is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but Akane doesn't know that. She doesn't know how the virus is released. She doesn't know she needs to send Sigma back to perpetuate the cycle.
What she does know (because she's a shifter) it is that the universe is constantly multiplying every time someone makes a choice. She should know humanity can't be saved or wiped out ever.
Because he thinks those timelines are useless. He even mentions it in one of the timelines. He knows that shifters will keep shifting to other timelines where he exists so he can just read their minds after the shift and learn everything he needs to know. There is no need to limit himself to one timeline
No, I'm not saying that he didn't want to do it. Clearly, Uchikoshi wanted to. What I'm saying is that the VLR cliffhanger was unwarranted from a narrative perspective, because what would follow was very obviously not planned, going from what we know in Zero Time Dilemma. There was absolutely no way that this plot's resolution was thought out in advance when VLR was being made.
A cliffhanger like that needs to feel earned. I don't think ZTD achieves that at all.
Boy, the way Radical 6 was addressed in ZTD was absolutely pathetic. After an entire game based around how it was critical that they go back in time to work out what caused Radical 6 and stop it, it felt like it was tacked on as an afterthought. "Oh, there was a vial of it in 1 of the rooms". What is it? Why was it in that test site? Was it discovered or created? If the latter, who created it and why? All swept under the rug. Don't even get me started on the reason for it being released.
Because he thinks those timelines are useless. He even mentions it in one of the timelines. He knows that shifters will keep shifting to other timelines where he exists so he can just read their minds after the shift and learn everything he needs to know. There is no need to limit himself to one timeline
Which brings us back the point of ZTD. There will always be a timeline that Delta is born and the world is not wiped out. All other timelines should be seen as useless as well if that is Delta's reasoning. So why go through with the Decision game?
Both 999 and VLR drive home a point of selfishness in their acts. Those versions in the apocalyptic timeline want to escape their fate, but Delta can never do that because he only knows one version of himself. If he dies that's it. And if the idea that wants to survive a single timeline then there is no need to do anything, because that possibility is in fact, certain.
The more I think about ZTD the more I confuse myself :/
Which brings us back the point of ZTD. There will always be a timeline that Delta is born and the world is not wiped out. All other timelines should be seen as useless as well if that is Delta's reasoning. So why go through with the Decision game?
Both 999 and VLR drive home a point of selfishness in their acts. Those versions in the apocalyptic timeline want to escape their fate, but Delta can never do that because he only knows one version of himself. If he dies that's it. And if the idea that wants to survive a single timeline then there is no need to do anything, because that possibility is in fact, certain.
The more I think about ZTD the more I confuse myself :/
I think the idea is that timelines only exist because of decisions. Not just decisions, but intentional decisions. For example, the timelines where Carlos or Diana press the yellow button and kill 6 people would not exist without Delta intervening with the Mind Hack, because they would not have made that decision themselves.
People tend to act in certain ways, and it's not implausible that these tendencies will ultimately lead to only a certain set of outcomes.
In this way, Delta must be intentional in order to create a timeline where everybody's powers are fully awakened, or one where the AB project occurs, or one where he and Phi are born.
So why did Carlos never appear in VLR if he was alive then? I had thought he would have wanted to right the wrong he did during that ending. Honestly thought that Carlos would end up being Zero due to how he accidentally fucked up the world there and made it his mission to make things right or if he went off the rails. Would have preferred that to Delta's sudden appearance.
I don't know how there can be anyone who is satisfied with aliens suddenly being used as a plot device in a storyline when they are not correctly foreshadowed. Aliens are a lazy plot enabler, a case of "shit, we need to write in a way for X crazy thing to happen, let's just say alien technology because lol you can't say it's unrealistic". They have literally no importance to the plot aside from writing a complex excuse for how Phi could potentially be Sigma's daughter (which I refuse to believe was originally planned, considering how they only threw that "oh, I actually have red hair" line in this game and never even hinted at it in VLR, and wibbly wobbly timey wimey nonsense like her mother's brooch being her own brooch).
Where did the alien technology even come from? Just appeared out of nowhere? If it was around at the time of VLR why didn't Akane and hew crew just use that in the first place to do shit with rather than just abandon the site? Seems like a plot hole to me.
VLR: The concept of multiple timelines is introduced. We learn that "every choice leads to something new", but given how Radical 6 is treated, we are meant to think it is some kind of inescapable fate for humanity (think When They Cry series), so Akane spending 40 years of her life to try to "fix" the world make sense even if she personally won't be benefit from it.
The moment Uchikoshi wrote that "every choice leads to a different timeline" he basically made the whole of VLR and ZRD pointless. Akane can't save the world, somewhere in the whole multiverse plenty of worlds in which the terrorist isn't born or Radical 6 isn't released must already exist! (Of course this also means plenty of worlds in which humanity is dead also exist too)
For one, I don't think there's anything in-game that suggests that radical-6 is an inevitability across all timelines. It seems clear that in a multi-reality scenario, that not every single one is going to have the same, specific event.
Secondly, from VLR we know multiple timelines exist based on choices. We know that some people can bounce between them. Junpei's perspective is that even if a crap timeline exists, for the people that live within it and have experiences within it, it's still a valid timeline for them.
Lastly, even if we assume that there are infinite realities, it would make sense that Akane bust her ass to save 6B lives within one of them, if she knows about it, and knows that she could prevent it. Yes, that's 6B lives saved compared to an infinite amount over infinite realities, but... that's still 6B lives she could save!
So why did Carlos never appear in VLR if he was alive then? I had thought he would have wanted to right the wrong he did during that ending. Honestly thought that Carlos would end up being Zero due to how he accidentally fucked up the world there and made it his mission to make things right or if he went off the rails. Would have preferred that to Delta's sudden appearance.
There's a solid chance Carlos died from Radical 6. If not, then he wouldn't have spent the years simply waiting, he would have been out there helping people (he chose to work as a firefighter after all), which would likely have resulted in him dying early from an accident in a radical 6 ravaged world anyway.
For one, I don't think there's anything in-game that suggests that radical-6 is an inevitability across all timelines. It seems clear that in a multi-reality scenario, that not every single one is going to have the same, specific event.
"we are meant to think it is some kind of inescapable fate for humanity " maybe I should used "we were meant".
I was speaking in VLR terms, when we didn't know what Radical-6 was. We knew it was a mysterious virus that came from the Mars Test Site. It caused the apocalypse. The way the characters are ultimately so focused in stopping it, it makes you feel it's really a turning point in human history.
Now we know Radical-6 is basically an afterthought, of course. There is nothing very dooming about Radical-6 existence itself, It doesn't even get out in most endings!
Secondly, from VLR we know multiple timelines exist based on choices. We know that some people can bounce between them. Junpei's perspective is that even if a crap timeline exists, for the people that live within it and have experiences within it, it's still a valid timeline for them.
Lastly, even if we assume that there are infinite realities, it would make sense that Akane bust her ass to save 6B lives within one of them, if she knows about it, and knows that she could prevent it. Yes, that's 6B lives saved compared to an infinite amount over infinite realities, but... that's still 6B lives she could save!
Does it? What prompt her to basically ruin her own life to maybe create a new timeline that will.... be just another timeline in the infinite numbers of timelines? It doesn't even "fix" her world, ultimately whatever happened on Mars will create infinite words that won't affect her one bit. Not to mention, how many bad timelines were born from that act? How many lives were ruined?
Am I the only one that feels it's a pointless exercise? Like trying to fill the ocean with more water?
Yeah Akane, you created a timeline in which you stopped the terrorist and the virus. Next week: Someone takes the wrong road and over 800 bad timelines are born.
