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Square Enix awarded US patent for single-button action RPG battle system
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Augemitbutter
Member
fixed.
it's probably this games easy mode, similar to how Bayonetta had a hold button to win mode. it's a very straightforward solution. easy modes that let you win, hold button to win or press one button to win. in the end, it's all a solution for players that don't want to play their games. this has been on-going for years.
Wyndstryker
Member
Nah, the others still needed the D-Pad.
They're going for true blue one button control! Whole game is a QTE!
Exploratory
Banned
INSERT JOKE ABOUT AN RPG HERE.
DrFunkatronic
Member
Wait EA doesn't have that patented?
Was about to say this.
FalsettoVibe
Member
How is it possible that this can be patented?
Auto-Reply
Member
I would say no but I don't know the FF system in detail.
In Batman youuse 2 buttons, one for the counter and one for attacking + it's a timing based system with small windows you have to react to. When non-standard enemies appear you are suddenly not able to just counter/block them withouth using another (third) button. Then, if you want to play effective in a large group of enemies, you suddenly have to use even more buttons and techniques. The batamn mechanics are actually quite fleshed out and diverse.
Exentryk
Member
People that don't understand software making and enforcing the laws
All I can say is wow. The dedication and engineering behind this innovative new approach is staggering. This is why game development budget is through the roof guys. Imagine the man hours required to put such a system in place. Hopefully, they are going to be able to protect their work with this patent.
So does this mean other developers can't make single-button combat systems?
Dat silver lining
Because it's not.
The title is misleading, they haven't been "awarded" the patent, it's not even close to grant.
By now it's just the publication of the application (A1 means it's an application, B1 would be a granted patent), which was published several months after applying, that's common procedure.
It will probably take some years before it's granted, which it won't be.
The USPTO Search Report should cover lots of prior art documents harmful to novelty and inventive step (two main criteria for a valid patent).
So yeah. Don't worry too much.
Holy Shit it was under our noses this entire time!
Can't argue with that.
But recently there's been quite a change going on in the US patenting system, making it a lot harder to get a patent.
That's especially true in the biology/biotech sector I specialized in, I hope it's true for other fields, too.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
Considering how little we know about FFXV's combat system, and how this "patent" seems to tie with it, I believe it's worth taking a read and analyzing it a bit. There's some interesting notes that shows us Tabata's thinking, worries, plans, etc.
PART 1
This reminds me how I made my girlfriend play FFVII a few days ago. I found it surprising how many times she lost because she was too slow navigating through the menus. I had to config the game to pause it while selecting skills, something that she didn't even know how to do it by herself. Outside of this situation, she adapted well to the combat's tactics and strategy. It was the "muscle memory" that was the real problem - going through an "endless" list of magic spells or items (interesting note: items were NOT sorted out, because she didn't know it was possible to do it - in fact, that idea didn't even pass her mind) while bosses continuously killed the characters, making it impossible to even do something as simple as improvize.
This is just an example of a casual player. She was in for the story, and she didn't mind a bit of challenge, but she was not willing to spend "hours" navigating through the triangle menu for the sake of... finding stuff. She didn't find that interesting at all.
It might seem a weird concept to us core gamers, but when you invite someone who is not into games for a playthrough, those problems are quite common. It's easy to understand why developers place ever greater importance on streamlining input complexity to expand gaming to "non-core-gamers", especially when casual games have shown that is a possible thing to do, and there's plenty of money in it.
The only problem with a radical streamlining, however, is when it comes at the cost of gameplay depth. Tabata seems to be aware of it, however:
And then it goes on to say:
Which translating into everyday words, means the following (my main language is not English, so forgive me if I make a mistake!):
Inputting commands should be easy and straightforward for casual players, BUT it should still retain some intricacies to provide a challenge to the advanced player.
This one is especially very interesting, because it implies that "hold X to attack" might have additional, "hidden" mechanics that go beyond its core function (aka, having more to it than just the character attacking while holding the button).
I'll keep reading the page.
PART 1
(In other words, casual players are slow to react to complicated input situations, and this hurts their enjoyment of the game).
This reminds me how I made my girlfriend play FFVII a few days ago. I found it surprising how many times she lost because she was too slow navigating through the menus. I had to config the game to pause it while selecting skills, something that she didn't even know how to do it by herself. Outside of this situation, she adapted well to the combat's tactics and strategy. It was the "muscle memory" that was the real problem - going through an "endless" list of magic spells or items (interesting note: items were NOT sorted out, because she didn't know it was possible to do it - in fact, that idea didn't even pass her mind) while bosses continuously killed the characters, making it impossible to even do something as simple as improvize.
This is just an example of a casual player. She was in for the story, and she didn't mind a bit of challenge, but she was not willing to spend "hours" navigating through the triangle menu for the sake of... finding stuff. She didn't find that interesting at all.
It might seem a weird concept to us core gamers, but when you invite someone who is not into games for a playthrough, those problems are quite common. It's easy to understand why developers place ever greater importance on streamlining input complexity to expand gaming to "non-core-gamers", especially when casual games have shown that is a possible thing to do, and there's plenty of money in it.
The only problem with a radical streamlining, however, is when it comes at the cost of gameplay depth. Tabata seems to be aware of it, however:
And then it goes on to say:
Which translating into everyday words, means the following (my main language is not English, so forgive me if I make a mistake!):
Inputting commands should be easy and straightforward for casual players, BUT it should still retain some intricacies to provide a challenge to the advanced player.
This one is especially very interesting, because it implies that "hold X to attack" might have additional, "hidden" mechanics that go beyond its core function (aka, having more to it than just the character attacking while holding the button).
I'll keep reading the page.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Did you ignore all the text in the OP or is English not your first language?
This is...weird.
Hopefully the game is difficult enough that it eventually bites you in the ass for it.
Stop playing on normal.
Hopefully the game is difficult enough that it eventually bites you in the ass for it.
so true
Stop playing on normal.
GankzyMcfly
Member
Hikami
Member
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
PART 2
All this would happen under a (hidden or not?) timer. As stated, within the timer, the game would verify how many times the input ocurred after a button press, but it would also verify if the button was even pressed in the first place. The condition to trigger the timer is, as vaguely written, "set up by the game".
This implies that additional actions might be available through other means, before or regardless of a button press, and once available, the player would have a specific time window to pull them off. This is probably reserved, I guess, to all kinds of contextual commands.
The "number of input actions ocurred within a timer" is heavily emphasized and detailed in the document, so I assume it's going to be very important. It is said, more than once, that this is how they plan to make button pressing challenging to the advanced player while keeping it simple for the casual player. My guess is that we should expect some intrincacies here to make it more complex than just "hold and watch it unfold", or else, the intention behind it to challenge the more advanced player wouldn't make sense. (Maybe holding for a longer time does not always translates to a superior effect? Maybe holding it for a longer time makes you more vulnerable to attacks, unless you interrupt your combo to avoid the attacks?)
From what I'm getting, a predetermined command would show up on the screen, and upon player's input (press of a button), it would verify (within a timer, more on this later) how many times the input occured. This seems to be the base for "hold to attack/ defend", and possibly even for charging magic (the mechanisms are certainly there). There seems to exist a mechanic in place that might cap how high that number can go.
All this would happen under a (hidden or not?) timer. As stated, within the timer, the game would verify how many times the input ocurred after a button press, but it would also verify if the button was even pressed in the first place. The condition to trigger the timer is, as vaguely written, "set up by the game".
This implies that additional actions might be available through other means, before or regardless of a button press, and once available, the player would have a specific time window to pull them off. This is probably reserved, I guess, to all kinds of contextual commands.
The "number of input actions ocurred within a timer" is heavily emphasized and detailed in the document, so I assume it's going to be very important. It is said, more than once, that this is how they plan to make button pressing challenging to the advanced player while keeping it simple for the casual player. My guess is that we should expect some intrincacies here to make it more complex than just "hold and watch it unfold", or else, the intention behind it to challenge the more advanced player wouldn't make sense. (Maybe holding for a longer time does not always translates to a superior effect? Maybe holding it for a longer time makes you more vulnerable to attacks, unless you interrupt your combo to avoid the attacks?)
Interestingly, it seems like it's being designed to handle more than one player, when input from different players occurs.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
PART 3
Based on the images available, one of them shows a list of actions + conditions that greatly resembles FFXII's gambit system. On the right side, you have types of actions (Boomerang, Spell A, Spell B, etc). On the left side, you have conditions based on character's positioning (how close or far they are).
Apparently, moving around the battlefield changes/ determines your skillset.
There's another image with a list of examples for positional conditions. "Nearest from player character", "Nearest from allied character", "Farthest from (...)", "In contact with (...)", etc. FFXII had some gambits like that, too, but this one is greatly expanded to the point that it can determine if characters are within 3m or 10m of distance of each other.
The following image gives examples of action methods. "Close attack with sword", "Distant attack with boomerang", "Attack Spell B", etc. I assume that when pressing the button to attack, if the character is far from the enemy, will make the character automatically switch to/ usa a ranged weapon, or at least if specified in a gambit-ish system.
Then, it is shown that the positional condition + attack method "gambits" are priotized exactly as they are in FFXII. Top rows have priority over bottom rows.
In fig 8. and fig 9. the combat flow is shown in the following order:
1) player's sights on enemy;
2) attack instruction (I assume this is when the player can manually press the attack button, if they want to);
3 & 4) specify positional relationship and attack method (AKA, verifies which "gambit" to use);
5) execute attack;
About this figure, the document states that a "control section" occurs within it, right alongside a timer to pull off the command. (It says that there's a time limit of 8 seconds).
The idea that I'm getting so far for this combat system, is that a gambit system determines which action is available with the Attack button, based on the player's positioning (and thus, under the player's direct control), where it then must be manually triggered by the player.
And thus, we might be getting a clearer grasp of what Tabata called an one-button game. In reality, it heavily involves the analog stick to move around, and a (customisable?) gambit system behind it.
It's interesting to note that, in theory, this is pretty much a visual version of a menu combat system. In traditional RPGs, you select actions by pressing the arrow buttons, and confirm them with a specific button. In this patent document, you "select" (make available) actions based on where you go (arrow buttons or analog stick?), and then you confirm them with a specific button. This might potentially make FFXV as much of a one-button-wonder as any other FF.
Based on the images available, one of them shows a list of actions + conditions that greatly resembles FFXII's gambit system. On the right side, you have types of actions (Boomerang, Spell A, Spell B, etc). On the left side, you have conditions based on character's positioning (how close or far they are).
Apparently, moving around the battlefield changes/ determines your skillset.
There's another image with a list of examples for positional conditions. "Nearest from player character", "Nearest from allied character", "Farthest from (...)", "In contact with (...)", etc. FFXII had some gambits like that, too, but this one is greatly expanded to the point that it can determine if characters are within 3m or 10m of distance of each other.
The following image gives examples of action methods. "Close attack with sword", "Distant attack with boomerang", "Attack Spell B", etc. I assume that when pressing the button to attack, if the character is far from the enemy, will make the character automatically switch to/ usa a ranged weapon, or at least if specified in a gambit-ish system.
Then, it is shown that the positional condition + attack method "gambits" are priotized exactly as they are in FFXII. Top rows have priority over bottom rows.
In fig 8. and fig 9. the combat flow is shown in the following order:
1) player's sights on enemy;
2) attack instruction (I assume this is when the player can manually press the attack button, if they want to);
3 & 4) specify positional relationship and attack method (AKA, verifies which "gambit" to use);
5) execute attack;
About this figure, the document states that a "control section" occurs within it, right alongside a timer to pull off the command. (It says that there's a time limit of 8 seconds).
This seems to confirm that gambit-driven actions are manually triggered by the player.
The idea that I'm getting so far for this combat system, is that a gambit system determines which action is available with the Attack button, based on the player's positioning (and thus, under the player's direct control), where it then must be manually triggered by the player.
And thus, we might be getting a clearer grasp of what Tabata called an one-button game. In reality, it heavily involves the analog stick to move around, and a (customisable?) gambit system behind it.
It's interesting to note that, in theory, this is pretty much a visual version of a menu combat system. In traditional RPGs, you select actions by pressing the arrow buttons, and confirm them with a specific button. In this patent document, you "select" (make available) actions based on where you go (arrow buttons or analog stick?), and then you confirm them with a specific button. This might potentially make FFXV as much of a one-button-wonder as any other FF.
It'll be pretty, at least..
I hope there's more to the battle system than this automated jazz.
Wait EA doesn't have that patented?
What's funny about this is that the actual gameplay in Dragon Age 2 isn't actually press A for awesome, it's just that the cutscenes had some interactive bits like Mass Effect did. But with all the responses to this gif, you'd think it was the entire game. Dragon Age 2 did a lot of things wrong, however it did not have a one button combat system.
Nope, It's ff XV's actual new gameplay system.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Wait this isn't a joke?
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
The idea I'm getting is the following:
Traditional FF:
- You go through a combat menu using the arrow pad or the analog;
- You press X and confirm the command you wish to execute.
FFXV:
- You move around the battlefield using the arrow pad (?) or the analog;
- You press X and confirm the command specifically set for the position you put yourself in;
- You customise which positional conditions trigger which commands, through a system similar to the gambits from FFXII.
Stone Ocean
Member
No, it isn't. You have one button for "Attack". That does single attacks, combos, different weapon attacks, etc.
There's still a button for defense, a button for magic and the like. It's not literally one button for everything.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Basically in 15 EVERYONE is controlled by gambits including Noctis during battle. Your only input during battle is
1. where he is (which can trigger contextually based interactions) and which you can also use the warp to quickly leap around the battlefield, and
2. whether you're attacking or defending
Then, based on your weapon deck and gambits the game will basically choose the optimal strategy based on the conditions. So as opposed to in previous games where the strategy took place in terms of pre-battle team management and in battle selection of moves, in 15 it's mainly pre-battle
Except you don't. It's specifically been said the AI chooses the command. There is no "confirmation" aside from "Holding X initiates your string of attacks"
1. where he is (which can trigger contextually based interactions) and which you can also use the warp to quickly leap around the battlefield, and
2. whether you're attacking or defending
Then, based on your weapon deck and gambits the game will basically choose the optimal strategy based on the conditions. So as opposed to in previous games where the strategy took place in terms of pre-battle team management and in battle selection of moves, in 15 it's mainly pre-battle
Except you don't. It's specifically been said the AI chooses the command. There is no "confirmation" aside from "Holding X initiates your string of attacks"
Solid Samus
Banned
great now this game is shitty
just like Xenoblade Chronicles that piece of shit with its single button action rpg battle system
please don't explain to me the nuances of Xenoblade's combat because that sentence I just posted is more than enough to jump to wild conclusions about how the game plays as a whole
just like Xenoblade Chronicles that piece of shit with its single button action rpg battle system
please don't explain to me the nuances of Xenoblade's combat because that sentence I just posted is more than enough to jump to wild conclusions about how the game plays as a whole
Red Liquorice
Member
It certainly doesn't fill one with confidence for a game that is already confidence-less to the extreme.
If there's anything that RPGs need now it isn't LESS decision making. On the flipside, I do see another developer stepping up the plate and filling the gap with a new idea. Such is the nature of stagnant genres in any media.
If there's anything that RPGs need now it isn't LESS decision making. On the flipside, I do see another developer stepping up the plate and filling the gap with a new idea. Such is the nature of stagnant genres in any media.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
Except that you can apparently (?) manually trigger the gambits within a time limit, and said gambits are based on your position, which is under your direct control.
That's the idea I'm getting after analysing the document.
None of these possibilities sound particularly appealing, though.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
So, QTEs? I can see in the last trailer when they picked up that large sword that being a QTE
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
To make it clear, what I'm saying is based on what I interpret of the patent document in question. I might be wrong, or the game might not end up being like this anyways, but here it is what it seemed to me:
PRE-BATTLE
1. A gambit system determines the actions (customisable) that are available under specific positional conditions (also customisable).
MID-BATTLE
2. You manually position yourself to have access to the actions that you want to have acess to (based on the gambits).
3. You manually trigger said actions by pressing the button.
LMFAO
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
"QTEs" that you can trigger based on where you are positioned, which is by itself based on the gambits you have set up.
In the end, it doesn't seems drastically different from a traditional menu-based combat.
(Menu) You go up or down in the menu and confirm the action with the X button.
(FFXV) You go up or down (and left and right) in the battlefield and confirm the action with the X button.
Protagonist Jake
Member
You go ahead and keep it SE.
lmao
So good.