Support NeoGAF

[surazal]

Two years to restructure? Even their management changes take forever. Hahaha.

Why the hell is that? Is it a Japanese cultural thing, where since they speak in such a roundabout way, they can't fire someone directly? They have to say it indirectly and wait for the guy to figure it out or something?

Gotta save face.

They might have admitted there is a problem, but I'm not confident their restructuring will fix anything. They'll probably anger the wrong people and what's left of their talent will leave the company.

 

[mujun]

In Japan PS1 launched in December 1994, shipments ended in March 05. 11 years.

Shipments reached 21.59 million.

When did they reach 6.5 million? March 1997. It only took 2 years. Compared to the PS3 that has been out since 2006.

I'm not sure about inflation but the PS1 launched for 39,800 yen and by 1996 was 19,800 yen.

The PS3 today is still like 30,000 yen...

Sure.

Problem is that the economic situation has also worsened in that period. Kids study more, adults work longer hours and at the same time handhelds have gotten closer to the power of a home console. These things combined have caused a lot of gamers to migrate to handhelds. I'd be shocked to see the PS3 get close to the PS2's success.

 

[galian beast]

You act like Monster Hunter Tri's million+ sales aren't significant, when FFXIII is the only title that has sold over a million units on the PS3 in Japan.

I don't know why you think the PS3 is healthier than the Wii in that country.

Well first I would say Monster Hunter is certainly a bigger franchise in Japan than Final Fantasy right now. 2nd I would say that FF13 was a horrible title. I'm not sure if I would say the PS3 is a healthy system by any means, but I still think it's the place for 3rd party Japanese titles. I think it's price is terribly inflated though.

 

[galian beast]

Do you think that the demand for home consoles matches that of the U.S?

I honestly can't make the comparison in terms of demand. That's really hard to judge. Especially when you look at the different costs, there are a lot of moving parts there. The quantity demanded certainly isn't on par, but you also have to look at the difference in population.

But what I am willing to say is that I think if the PS3 was anywhere near an appropriate price, sales would be significantly higher than they are now. The base PS3 still costs nearly 400 dollars... and with LESS software support in Japan... There is no getting around that, that's TOO expensive. I would be really interested to see what happens once the PS3 is 19,800 yen, I thought we would get price drops during e3, but I guess we're still going to have to wait on that.

 

[Tarin02543]

stop making movies and start making games.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Where are his twitter posts after FF XIV online release?

 

[galian beast]

Handhelds do dominate Japan, except a large number of Square-Enix's games weren't being made for handhelds, they decided initially to support the xbox360 which continues to fail in Japan, their big budget titles with high production values can't be made on the DS/PSP, so they're left with the PS3, and the wii which has started to decline significantly in Japan.

Their cash-in titles like remakes and ports would be perfect for handhelds which had been their strategy to milk cash out of old games since the GBA days.

Basically they've put themselves in a situation they can't get out of, they should have made a big push on either the wii when it was at its peak in Japan or the PS3 to consolidate their userbase in Japan, but they didn't.

Square-Enix isn't the only publisher with this problem however.

You keep taking the words right out of my mouth. There is no way in my mind that games like Monster Hunter and Phantasy Star should have success on PSP where Square's success hasn't been as great as it should have.

I think you could argue that the PSP for example is a much better haven for 3rd party titles. You really have to question why a lot of games weren't at least multiplatform onto the PSP as well.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

If PS3 was the same price as PS2, with the same level of 3rd party support, it'd be doing so much better.

If Wii was the same price as PS2, with the same level of 3rd party support, it'd be doing so much better.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I just want to take this opportunity to state that FFXIII was my first FF, and will likely be my last. So disappointing.

Now that I have a PS3 I was looking forward to mainline SE games. XIII left me with a bad, bad taste in my mouth.

 

[galian beast]

You argued platform viability. So how did PS1 have than then and Wii doesn't now when the latter has comparable or better sales? How is PS3 a viable console in Japan when it still sells less software than Wii, despite a dramatically fuller release schedule and triple the weekly hardware sales, when Wii isn't a viable console? I'm sorry GB, reality just isn't supporting your assertions here.

I'll ask the question again, what else should Tri have done besides meet targets in Japan? That's a benchmarkneven FFXIII couldn't manage, it's something most games don't manage in Japan these days. That's telling.

And if you don't care about Horii's decision making, then you clearly don't understand how Dragon Quest actually works, and you probably shouldn't be using it in any of your arguments.

I think you need to compare 3rd party software sales on Ps1 and Wii respectively... even compare 3rd party sales on Wii and PS3 respectively...

I don't know what it's expectations were, but despite having a larger userbase than the PSP it sold LESS than the PSP... that's a sign to me.

I think people have to realize that correlation doesn't prove causation. Just because handheld sales are up and console sales are down, doesn't mean handhelds are what people want now. Economics shows exactly why handhelds are selling better now. I think to prove that statement, a lot more proof is needed.

 

[galian beast]

If PS3 was the same price as PS2, with the same level of 3rd party support, it'd be doing so much better.

If Wii was the same price as PS2, with the same level of 3rd party support, it'd be doing so much better.

I think that is where you're mistaken. Wii to my knowledge has been priced pretty well in Japan, if the United States is any indication, and 3rd party games simply don't sell well.. the hardware has done well, the software has not.

 

[MalboroRed]

You keep taking the words right out of my mouth. There is no way in my mind that games like Monster Hunter and Phantasy Star should have success on PSP where Square's success hasn't been as great as it should have.

I think you could argue that the PSP for example is a much better haven for 3rd party titles. You really have to question why a lot of games weren't at least multiplatform onto the PSP as well.

I think while the PSP served as a good home for some of the PS2 franchises like Monster Hunter, those IPs needed to grow whether in terms of gameplay design/ambition or in terms of production values and visuals, a lot of Japanese IPs ended up not making a proper transition out of last generation, as a result they are getting left behind, this is especially problematic for smaller developers and publishers, a lot of Japanese publishers simply don't know what to do with their IPs in terms of current generation hardware.

 

[CrankyJay]

Square needs to go back to its roots.

 

[galian beast]

Top 10 best selling non nintendo console games this generation (japan)

1. Final Fantasy 13 - 1.8 million
2. Monster Hunter Tri - 1.016 million
3. MGS4 - 706k
4. Taiko Drum - 646k
5. Yakuza 4 - 538k
6. Fist of the North Star - 536k
7. Resident Evil 5 - 520k
8. Yakuza 3 - 509k
9. Dragon Quest Swords - 489k
10. World Soccer Winning Eleven 2010 - 427k

3 Wii titles
7 PS3 titles

Userbases are completely different though.

Yeah, the PS3 is still the healthier platform for 3rd party titles. I have no idea why Taiko Drum, and Dragon Quest Swords, and Monster Hunter Tri haven't been ported over.

360 support for Japan centric games? Ridiculous.

 

[Cwarrior]

Square enix side is a complete mess this gen, there struggling to make videogames.

You should be embarrassed after spending half a decade on games for them to only turn out mediocre.

 

[galian beast]

I think while the PSP served as a good home for some of the PS2 franchises like Monster Hunter, those IPs needed to grow whether in terms of gameplay design/ambition or in terms of production values and visuals, a lot of Japanese IPs ended up not making a proper transition out of last generation, as a result they are getting left behind, this is especially problematic for smaller developers and publishers, a lot of Japanese publishers simply don't know what to do with their IPs in terms of current generation hardware.

That's why you have Japanese companies paying western companies to make their games for them :/ It's a sad day.

Monster Hunter Tri being made for Wii really set back Sony, Capcom, and Monster Hunter.

1 million in sales compared to the what 4+ million the series is capable of getting on PSP?

 

[sonicmj1]

Keep in mind, Square's output on next-gen platforms was absolutely anemic for years.

Project Slipheed is the first game I can find published by Square on next-gen platforms, and that was in 2007, two years after 360 launch. That and their port of FFXI. Then there was nothing until Infinite Undiscovery and Last Remnant in 2008.

They were completely unprepared for next-gen development on any platform. Supporting the 360 with their first titles didn't help things, but it's hardly the sole reason they've had trouble.

And they've absolutely continued their porting/remaking strategy on handhelds this gen. They've been remaking FF games on both DS and PSP, and have rereleased Dragon Quest 4-6 on the DS. They've remade Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics for PSP, and they've launched successful spinoffs and new IPs on handheld platforms. And of course, Dragon Quest IX has been a massive success worldwide.

Hard to fault their strategy on that front.

 

[thetrin]

Excited about hammer pants are we?

What? They looking like parachute pants.

 

[jett]

Who would've thought that Eidos of all companies would be Squeenix's saving grace. :lol What a SAD generation this has been for them.

 

[syoaran]

Honestly I think this is a Nomura issue, as much as I hate to say it.

S-E depend on international sales and regular releases of their "pillar" franchises, but anything with Nomura's name on suffers from massive delays and poor localisation when taken out of the Japanese market. The KH series would be a lot more popular if the story actually made some sense.

I get that he's S-E's hero, but theres a limit to which you can fund creativity without it become a tangled mess.

 

[madara]

Likely the last epic console rpg I'll ever get to play, just give me DQX. I sure hope it delivers DQ8 like experience as I would like to go out with bang. 2D FFIV PSP remake was dream, would love FF3,5, 6 in that vein before we completely and totally give up on charming art forever.

 

[JCreasy]

I'm looking at you Nomura . . .

Honestly I think this is a Nomura issue, as much as I hate to say it.

S-E depend on international sales and regular releases of their "pillar" franchises, but anything with Nomura's name on suffers from massive delays and poor localisation when taken out of the Japanese market. The KH series would be a lot more popular if the story actually made some sense.

I get that he's S-E's hero, but theres a limit to which you can fund creativity without it become a tangled mess.

PREACH IT!

 

[Ra1den]

I can't really fault Squenix for their games taking forever to come out...in the same way I can't fault Polyphony Digital or Team Ico or Blizzard. Quality takes time. That being said, they could have at least SHOWED us some new stuff.

 

[AshMcCool]

They've been embarrassing all gen.

Sadly, yes. The only really good stuff were remakes. And people complain about Capcom. But really Capcom was one of only a few Japanese Companies that did it homework. Successfully launched some new IPs, did fan-service with stuff like Megaman, Street Fighter, technological side was fine etc. . Really why are people giving Capcom such a hard time?

 

[Phenomic]

Koji Taguchi for President.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I think that is where you're mistaken. Wii to my knowledge has been priced pretty well in Japan, if the United States is any indication, and 3rd party games simply don't sell well.. the hardware has done well, the software has not.

Wii's still 20,000 yen in Japan. How much was PS2 4.5 years in?

Wii's had phenominal software sales, despite anemic 3rd party support. If it'd have gotten the same sort of commitment PS2 enjoyed, it'd still be outselling PS3 & 360 combined today. Hell, if it'd have even gotten the commitment PS3 did, we'd probably be looking at an extremely healthy 3rd party ecosystem. Wii's 3rd party sales are a direct result of it's 3rd party support, not the other way around.

 

[GenericUser]

they release ff13 and they are still embarrassed by anything? facinating!

 

[galian beast]

Honestly I think this is a Nomura issue, as much as I hate to say it.

S-E depend on international sales and regular releases of their "pillar" franchises, but anything with Nomura's name on suffers from massive delays and poor localisation when taken out of the Japanese market. The KH series would be a lot more popular if the story actually made some sense.

I get that he's S-E's hero, but theres a limit to which you can fund creativity without it become a tangled mess.

My first line of business would be to fire Wada, but then I would reign Nomura in big time.

I would let him do MAYBE 2 projects at once. Either a Final Fantasy game and a new IP or a Kingdom Hearts game and a new IP.

 

[fates]

The thing that confused me about Square Enix is they had a pretty committed and relatively sizable niche in the west that bought their titles. As long as they continued what they had been doing in the PS1/2 eras (though I think their decline started in the later PS2 years, but that's just me), that likely wouldn't have went anywhere.

But they really, really want a piece of that "westernized game" pie, but they fail to realize that no one really wants that from them. They alienated their established fans pretty well this gen with a disappointing, linear game, a sloppy MMO, a game that's in what appears to development hell for a few years, and pretty much handing off Dragon Quest like an unwanted child.

And when they do deliver something for them, it's largely under the radar. Dissidia 2 got some attention, but Tactics Ogre slipped out without much advertising put into it. I only ever saw a banner on Gamespot (granted, it was there for like a month, which is a lot better than what they did for, say, DQ5). And that's a shame because that's just the kind of product you'd expect from the SE/soft of old.

I'm sure at least Deus Ex won't flop on them, maybe Tomb Raider too. But they really have to start doing what people knew them and came to like them for.

DQ10 will help them a little, but they have to realize that should anything happen to any of the Big 3, that gravy train is over. They aren't getting any younger, either. I think Akira Toriyama is the youngest of them? They have to get back on track without relying on the occasional DQ for a guaranteed buck.

 

[Ydahs]

Now announce Chrono Break and we can all live happily ever after.

 

[truly101]

What? They looking like parachute pants.

Looks like a mix of bell bottoms and capri pants to me.

 

[Brazil]

I can't really fault Squenix for their games taking forever to come out...in the same way I can't fault Polyphony Digital or Team Ico or Blizzard. Quality takes time. That being said, they could have at least SHOWED us some new stuff.

Quality?

I mean, I even kinda like FFXIII but... That kind of quality shouldn't take 5 years to come up with.

 

[HK-47]

Honestly I think this is a Nomura issue, as much as I hate to say it.

S-E depend on international sales and regular releases of their "pillar" franchises, but anything with Nomura's name on suffers from massive delays and poor localisation when taken out of the Japanese market. The KH series would be a lot more popular if the story actually made some sense.

I get that he's S-E's hero, but theres a limit to which you can fund creativity without it become a tangled mess.

No it wouldnt. No one buys KH for story, they buy it for fanservice.

 

[morningbus]

I think they are intentionally running themselves into the ground so they become so desperate that they put all their energy and creative talent into one last dream game. A Final Fantasy, if you will.

 

[djtiesto]

.Every Japanese game I've played recently feels like it was designed in the mid 90's.

And that's a bad thing? What games are these? Fuck, I'd kill to be able to play some good games reminiscent of the mid 90's (the golden age of video games IMO).

 

[inner-G]

They need to focus on making good Japanese-style games instead of half ass western feeling games.

 

[badcrumble]

My first line of business would be to fire Wada, but then I would reign Nomura in big time.

I would let him do MAYBE 2 projects at once. Either a Final Fantasy game and a new IP or a Kingdom Hearts game and a new IP.

Are you making the common mistake of thinking that he's directed every single game that he's only done character design for?

He's only directed Kingdom Hearts games so far, and is currently working on Versus and KH3D.

 

[galian beast]

Wii's still 20,000 yen in Japan. How much was PS2 4.5 years in?

Wii's had phenominal software sales, despite anemic 3rd party support. If it'd have gotten the same sort of commitment PS2 enjoyed, it'd still be outselling PS3 & 360 combined today. Hell, if it'd have even gotten the commitment PS3 did, we'd probably be looking at an extremely healthy 3rd party ecosystem. Wii's 3rd party sales are a direct result of it's 3rd party support, not the other way around.

20,790 Yen...

just look at the 3rd party games the Wii DID get... how does it deserve any support?

 

[Mrbob]

At least Square is finally realizing how irrelevant their Japan studios have become this generation. I remember when they were a beast last gen. Now they are a shell of their former self.

Who would've thought that Eidos of all companies would be Squeenix's saving grace. :lol What a SAD generation this has been for them.

Hahaha, it is funny when you think about this. But I have to give Eidos some props as all 3 games they had at E3 looks great.

 

[galian beast]

Are you making the common mistake of thinking that he's directed every single game that he's only done character design for?

He's only directed Kingdom Hearts games so far, and is currently working on Versus and KH3D.

I am not. I simply said I would have him work on only two games at once.

 

[badcrumble]

I am not. I simply said I would have him work on only two games at once.

That's already pretty much what he does, then.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Top 10 best selling non nintendo console games this generation (japan)

1. Final Fantasy 13 - 1.8 million
2. Monster Hunter Tri - 1.016 million
3. MGS4 - 706k
4. Taiko Drum - 646k
5. Yakuza 4 - 538k
6. Fist of the North Star - 536k
7. Resident Evil 5 - 520k
8. Yakuza 3 - 509k
9. Dragon Quest Swords - 489k
10. World Soccer Winning Eleven 2010 - 427k

3 Wii titles
7 PS3 titles

Userbases are completely different though.

Yeah, the PS3 is still the healthier platform for 3rd party titles. I have no idea why Taiko Drum, and Dragon Quest Swords, and Monster Hunter Tri haven't been ported over.

360 support for Japan centric games? Ridiculous.

lol. Well, if you're REALLY curious why those games weren't ported;

Monster Hunter Tri: likely airtight exclusivity deal, western promo/publishing deal, met sales targets and was the first JP cobsole million seller, PS3 getting PSP port instead

Taiko Wii: casual/family focused IP, sold comparably to PS2 entries, horrible fit for PS3 base

DQ Swords: Yuji Horii's genius, sold comparably to PS2 entries, IR dependant/Move bombed, developed by a Nintendo owned studio

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Its so crazy for me to look at my game library between ps2 and ps3 and the drastic shift of western games vs east. I have DS, Folklore, MGS4 and Siren and thats it! 90% of my games were Japan grown last gen.

 

[galian beast]

That's already pretty much what he does, then.

13, versus 13, type 0, crisis core, think there were others...

 

[truly101]

That's already pretty much what he does, then.

But but...Nomura is to blame for everything because we don't like his girly men, spikey hair, belts, zippers and Ronald McDonald feet. He needs to be thrown under the bus. It has to be this way......there is no other way.

 

[syoaran]

No it wouldnt. No one buys KH for story, they buy it for fanservice.

I think you just proved my point. More people (as in customers who do not buy it now) would be interested in KH if the story in the games actually made sense. Combat is great, fan service is fine, so if you fixed the story (and the platforming) you'd actually have a legacy series S-E hoped to have with KH.

And yes, fire Wada, rein in Nomura. Also get in some fresh talent and hire western producers to work in Japan to make sure localisation makes sense BEFORE the game is locked down. Konami did this and it worked far better for them as a result, even for a wack story that is MGS4

 

[badcrumble]

13, versus 13, type 0, crisis core, think there were others...

He only did character design for those. Are you honestly saying that the reason Square-Enix is bleeding money is because of character design?

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

20,790 Yen...

just look at the 3rd party games the Wii DID get... how does it deserve any support?

What'd it get? MH3 is the only AAA Japanese game so far, and it sold what Capcom wanted it to? By what twisted logic does that indicate it deserves no support?

The bpttom line is, Wii an extremely mainstream and casual machine, but most Japanese devs aren't making games for the mainstream. That's why something like Taiko or DQ, something that hits a wide diversity of audiences or a more casual fanbase, makes more sense of Wii. If FFXIII had been a Wii game, it probably would've broken that 2m barrier in Japan. It also probay would've ended up a very different game though.

 

[sonicmj1]

20,790 Yen...

just look at the 3rd party games the Wii DID get... how does it deserve any support?

I can't parse this sentence.

But considering a game like Dragon Quest Swords can sell 500k on the Wii in Japan, it suggests that if any third party put a main game in a franchise on the Wii with similar strength to things like Resident Evil/Yakuza, they'd get sales in Japan. That's what happened with Monster Hunter.

 

[Wilsongt]

This has probably already been said, but if Square is going to remake Final Fantasy titles, at least give all of the titles equal treatment, ala Dragon Quest. All but two Dragon Quest titles (7 and 8) have been remade in some way on another platform and have sold well. However, Square is focusing more on porting FFI and II to as many platforms as humanly possible. How about giving other Final Fantasy titles some love. I would LOVE to have a Final Fantasy VII game with a decent translation and less popeye arms. I would LOVE to see Final Fantasy V and VI redone in the same way as FFIV was on the PSP.

I know I am not the only one who wants those things, either.