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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens
- Thread starter Raticus79
- Start date
While I can't disagree with some of your points, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The way I see it, what you saw in that Alpha 3.0 has never been done before on any game period. It's a technological achievement and advances space sims beyond anything we've seen. It's rough yes, but I believe the things you mentioned will come.
For example, I don't see how you can start spending all of your resources developing proper atmospheric physics without the basic ability to do what you saw today--seamless transition from space to high orbit to low orbit to atmospheric entry and landing on this level of graphical fidelity, on a multi-crew ship, etc.
TDLink
Member
Well the people who buy those are almost certainly going to be few and far between.
My big question is how will getting new ships work in-game. I basically just sat up and started paying attention after today's demo. But surely the only way to get bigger and better ships will not be to pay hundreds or thousands of real money on the website.
The Dear Leader
Banned
Different ships serve different roles, there is no jack of all trades ship that dominates the field. All ships will be acquirable through in game currency once the game releases. If you're looking for a place to start, check out one of these 2 starter packages for $60 that will get you all the game content and a decent starter ship.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Mustang-Alpha-Star-Citizen-Squadron-42-Combo
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Aurora-MR-Star-Citizen-Squadron-42-Combo
molnizzle
Member
That's what is puzzling, why would you spend hundreds on the website if you can just get them in game? Makes me think that spending money is the only way.
What about the ships that are like $900 though?
Won't I be at an extreme disadvantage compared to people who have those? I don't like being at an extreme disadvantage, certainly not in an MMO.
I get where you're coming from but you have to realize how difficult it is to tune something like that while still adding features. Their physics model is probably constantly changing each time they integrate a new module. How are local physics bubbles handled? What about transitioning between atmosphere and zero grav, and moving that bubble between them as well? They would have to re-perfect it every time a new feature came online. It seems like they got it to a bare minimum of control, and are saving creating a good feel once all of the things that can affect the ship's physics are set in stone. Just like in a platformer you wouldn't design the map until the jump height was finalized, because every time you tweaked the map, the jumping rules would have to be rebuilt.
The Dear Leader
Banned
Well most of those super expensive ships won't really effect other players experience, a lot are trading, mining and salvage ships, so those players will make more money, that's about it. The reason people pay that much for them is that they really want to contribute to the project, this is like a dream game to a lot of people, so spending hundreds or thousands of dollars makes sense to them as they are some ways funding their own dream lol.
molnizzle
Member
Does that not give them a large advantage though?
Unless this game isn't like Eve? I mean, that's the end game goal, isn't it?
Most ships should be purchasable through in-game credits once the game goes live. But I suspect they won't be cheap. Some will be limited and rare, I understand, and won't be purchasable.
I can't speak for others, but I buy ships I like of course, but I also do it to contribute to the development. Simply because it's the closest game I've seen that's aiming to be everything I want in a Space sim.
As for disadvantage, I just don't see this game as a space race to see who gets the biggest ships, so it's never worried me. I want to chart my own course. Besides, the really big ships will require a huge crew and will be very expensive to run. In other words, you will likely need an organization (guild) to truly operate them effectively or even at all (although you will be able to hire NPCs to run certain stations), which means lots of people working together. There is no need to buy huge ships to be successful in this game.
The Dear Leader
Banned
I'm sure it will give them some advantage but I'm not sure how exactly the economy is going to fluctuate based on that, as all ships will be acquirable in game, the time it might take a player to get one of those $900 ships could be short and not make a huge difference in the long run. Just have to wait and see to be sure though.
staticneuron
Member
Spending money on ships is only to help fund game, you can eventually purchase every ship in game. The more expensive ships are multicrew ships that means that it takes more players and resource to fly and has no relation to power. There is a RPS system in play as well. Some smaller ships that are dedicated fighters may tear apart larger ships that are not of that class. For example a dedicated mining or salvage ship may not have an easy time defending against a hornet, sabre, or buccaneer.
Saw you mention this several times but let use be honest here. What are you being a stickler about? On a planet that had no trees or waters, what type of atmosphere are you expecting?
Also Mass, that you continue to go on about, is relative. But for a moment let us talk about newtons second law. The net force acting on an object equals the object's mass multiplied by the acceleration.
The size/mass of the ships are not what determines the maneuverability in space alone. The power of the engines and thrusters are what would make the difference in this case. Any ship which engines and thrusters can accelerate your ship to high speeds will seem like a humming bird in space. That is not to say that you as individual would be ok in that ship but if this is a futuristic scenario one would think they would have thought about that.
Either way, if the game is not for you then it isn't for you. No need for repeated angry posts or long goodbyes. We understand..... and we still love you!
molnizzle
Member
Right but a guild that spends the money will be further ahead than one that doesn't, won't they? This is an MMO, it will have to turn into a "race" to keep people playing. As an outsider looking in it just seems like it might be the worst "pay to win" offender yet. I'm honestly surprised that I haven't seen huge backlash at this...
Zalusithix
Member
The biggest and most expensive ships aren't solo ships. They're multi crew monsters that'll need many people aboard to run smoothly. I own an Idris. That's one of the most expensive in the game. I wont be able to do diddle with it by myself.
Meanwhile nobody else will be getting anywhere in the game by themselves. At least not effectively. You'll want to join an org, and any major org is going to have these big ships available.
Beyond that, the game will have to be balanced for the existence of these ships eventually anyhow. There's little difference between an expensive ship day one vs a person that didn't drop a lot of money in the game and an expensive ship day one thousand and one vs person just getting into the game.
Edit: Oh and about your "why would you spend hundreds on the website if you can just get them in game?" question... The reasons can vary from person to person, but for many: to support development of the game. If it weren't for those of us buying more expensive ships than we need, CIG would have a fraction of the funding they have now.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
The terrible look of the sips in atmo flight is symptom of the bad flight model as a whole. I fully appreciate the insane technical level they are going after. At the same time I am talking about the very core of the game which is how ships will fly and what they feel like, and ultimately the #1 means of player interaction which is ship combat. This to me is like buying a race car and placing commuter tires on it. If the core gameplay is this bad as it is, it is going to effect the game as whole negatively.
The Dear Leader
Banned
I think you're looking at it too much in the traditional MMO way, the end game for one player will be completely different to another player depending on the role they chose and ship they pilot.
I think you're approaching this game like it's Eve. It's not, at least not what's planned at this stage. It's a space sim/adventure MMO. I'm there for the experience, the adventure, of trading, mining, exploration, a bit like Freelancer or Privateer on a much larger and MMO scale.
Maybe it will turn like Eve or WoW where its all about organization "world firsts" and "raiding" 4 times a week for 3 hours to get the best "loot", at which point I would probably quit the game.
It does sound like the game is not for you. There is a precedent for getting a refund, I think you can find it on google. (Not being facetious, I fully understand this game will not be for everyone)
I've had plenty of fun with arena commander already. It's just a different style choice. Getting what you describe as good flight mechanics involves more departure from realism. People actually tried doing local single player mods where acceleration was changed for more weighty-feeling flight, and it turned out more like Kerbal Space Program and no one could hit each other. There's the WW2-in-space approach of artificially limiting yaw, but Elite already has that covered.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Funny thing with thrusters in this game there is a clear size difference of main thrusters vs MAV thrusters. Yet in the CIG's flight model those smaller thrusters can put out as much power as the larger main. Then you get into the G forces which they want to simulate but that the same time the 30+ Gs the hummingbirds they have now can pull would make it impossible to fly by their own logic. That and thruster placement and gimballing MAVS should produce strong and weak axis for rotation and vectoring, but we have none of that and something that looks and plays more the COD the spaceship.
molnizzle
Member
Most people started playing Eve and WoW for the same reasons though. If it's an MMO there's only one possible end state for it to have.
Guess I'll just jump on the free weekend thing and see how the ships handle. The online store (with fucking subscriptions!?) for a game that is apparently still years away is really off-putting. Especially when no one can say exactly how these purchases will affect the in-game economy...
In the beginning, probably. But there are also logistical consequences to fielding expensive ships. To be effective they will need to be crewed by actual players. This isn't like EVE where everyone in the guild has their own capital ship and can stack them in a fight. Capital ships will need to be crewed and many of the more expensive ships that have smaller crew requirements are specialized for non-combat roles. Also there have been plenty of examples already where bad pilots with expensive ships get rekt by skilled pilots in starter ships. Skill will play a large role in being effective in Star Citizen combat. It will be interesting to see what kind of logistics and resources will actually be needed for large guilds to project power effectively in systems.
Also it should be noted that once the game hits release all ship sales for actual money will cease, although you will be able to buy in-game credits (capped monthly)
Funny you should mention that. From what I saw of Infinite Warfare is that the spaceships fly like aeroplanes.
staticneuron
Member
Well going in on assumptions versus what they advertised and what other players are telling you only means that the fault for misconceptions would be on the person ignoring the information. And the subscriptions are not for the game, it helps the devs fund the community facing content such as the videos and collected print data. People have repeatedly mentioned that the ships do not have any effect directly on other players. The economy system isn't finished so we don't know but in all honesty with an economy that is reactive there shouldn't be a situation in which it harms the average player. SC is not aiming to be EVE.
Actually not really. Most ships have "more" mav thrusters to help ship moving in a certain direction. Depending on the placement they may have a more tangible effect in changing the direction of the ship than just having on large thruster to control movement from a centralized location.
As an example the Freelancer has 8 mav thrusters and 2 main (which only propels ship forward powerfully) an example of a ship that has the same power but may not be as agile as the Freelancer is the Caterpillar. That ship has the same amount of mav thrusters and main thrusters but with an additional 58,000 mass. If in comparison those two ships felt similar I would understand but we would have to wait on that one.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Yeah I won't deny that part does bug me a bit. It's only a minor thing but I do kind of wish there was a little bit more requirement to flying in the atmosphere and looking at it, it does feel like a minor adjustment to space flight. Early days though, maybe that will be tweaked. They did mention upgrades to the flight system for 3.0
staticneuron
Member
Iirc, it is still being worked on along with AI subsumption as stated in the presentation. But again on a rocky planet I didn't expect to have an atmosphere at all. There didn't look like any water, trees, or emissions from surface. Therefore no telling how much of an atmosphere there was, nor what gasses that atmosphere would be comprised of.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Good point, It could have been an extremely thin atmosphere but a few people seemed to be standing around outside the airlock in plain clothing. Probably just an oversight for now though.
True, I don't mean that I was expecting it to fall out of the sky though, just that it should have maybe had a little bit of wobble and instability as it performed the manoeuvres. Just a little something to represent resistance, but as the other poster mentioned it could simply be a matter of density.
Their atmospheric flight model does include turbulence and wind. It includes drag but not lift, where the latter is only being considered and isn't implemented. I do suspect that for that demo they don't have it enabled, though it is hard to tell.
Syphon Filter
Member
Isn't there a campaign? How is it an MMO if it has a campaign?
Squadron 42 is the campaign, Star Citizen is the MMO.
Just an FYI guys, this will also have private servers if you aren't a fan of the MMO but still want multiplayer.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
That would be what is called thrust error, or the reason jets shake under load. Or even when they showed EVA the little vibration of the screen. Basically in a power curve there is small variation in the actual output of an engine so it isn't completely smooth power.
If they were really nitpicky about it the Freelancer should've been dropping slightly and raising as it rolled because of the gimballed thrusters changing orientation to shove off in a different direction. That is strong vs weak axis in terms of how thrust should be distributed.
They said lift would be there dependent on airframe. So something like the Avenger *should* be able to achieve glide at a certain speed
Private servers?! If my PC run this game at 5-10 FPS i'd buy it now.
Syphon Filter
Member
Are they considered separated games or something? Or the campaign just has a special name?(squadron 42)
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Separate games technically. Squadron 42 has a stand alone package for $52, but the better route seems to be opting for one of the starter packages for Star Citizen (MMO) at $45 and then applying the Squadron 42 inclusion for an additional $15. I don't know why it works this way to be honest.
TDLink
Member
What I'm seeing on the website is either Squadron 42 or Star Citizen (with either of the two starter ships) are both $45 each. Or there is a bundle with both for $60. So basically for the standard price of a new game you get both, or $45 for just one.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
I was looking at a page earlier that my friend was thinking of pledging for where he could get the starter package and SP game for $60 but I can't find it again by following their store page. I found it via a link in this thread so it may be worth scouring through it. The games own store page can be a nightmare to navigate.
That's where you have to understand that there is no dominating anyone else.
It's not a PvP game, it's a it has PvP elements in that you can and will fight other players at some point, but it's mostly a PvE game.
molnizzle
Member
I'm still not understanding how this is possible in a space MMO. Regardless of what the developers intend, human beings are motherfuckers who will try to dominate one another if given the chance. Unless they don't have the chance? I'm still not exactly sure how this game works. And yes I read the shit on the website, if anything I'm even more confused after that.
I've done the same, except I melted a starfarer and a caterpillar.
That UEE pack is a great deal in star citizen terms.
I like the caterpillar, but I've got a BMM so don't really need it for hauling, and the Carrack has more cargo capacity, is better armed, has its own medical and repair bays, plus a rover and a scout ship as standard, so I think it would be a bit redundant for me.
Plus if I wanted to play search and rescue or what ever I've got the terrapin as well now so it's even more redundant.
As for the Starfarer, it's impressive, it's huge, and making your own fuel is easy money, but I don't really like it so it wasn't a difficult choice to bin it.
I'd imagine it'll be like eve where it depends on where you're at. If you're in higher security systems, pvp will cause you to get blown out of the sky, lower sec will give you a criminal record and will get you shot at by space stations. Null sec is everyone for themselves.
The whole realism argument for the flightmodel kinda falls flat for me because most of the other parts of the game aren't realistic. "Sim" is an incredibly arbitrary term here. So much of the game is designed with visuals in mind, not the least the ships themselves, which are designed with the rule of cool in mind and not the actual physics of the game (ghost thrusters lol). It creates this huge disconnect IMO. Everything looks amazing until the ships move. Then it's like some kid just grabbed a toy and waves it about the place.
You can tell they're really making an effort to fly as carefully as possible in the streams not to make things look like shit.
You can tell they're really making an effort to fly as carefully as possible in the streams not to make things look like shit.
Syphon Filter
Member
so if you get both is it separate exe's?
Its like EVE and its not. And in EVE having bigger ships do not give you large advantage.
Having more ships also do not give large advantage.
You need to stop thinking about this game's ships like levels in MMOs, it works completely different.
Here you can have 4 organized Auroras possibility to kill Idris that is piloted by one person.
Here you can aboard the Idris with one Aurora, kill people inside and take it over.
There is so many additional mechanics, that having more expensive ships means nothing except that they are different or allow players to play different ships from the start. Thats it.
Multicrew ships are multi crew goals, which can be achieves much faster by a group.
And how do you think having several ships on launch of the game is different to starting playing the game few months after launch?
If by "next-gen" you mean PS4/Xbox One, it's beyond that. PS5? Maybe.