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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting

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SnowTeeth

Banned
Not really, choosing that term to define Arena commander is very much a PR choice to protect it from critisim. The way it's release was handled ( delay for the sake of polish, etc... they said it themselves ), put just another level of expectation, whatever the state in developement of the final product ( != module ). And the way they handle patch is the same, no separate dev branch/nightly build, big patch, they test before, only giving pretty much finalized content ( I very much doubt, they don't actually work on ships inside their pre alpha build, even before they have destruction done, etc.. ) etc.. by all mean Arena commander is handled like a separate complet product, they don't really let us have our hand that dirty.

And while I'm not as pessimist as Effect ( about the -very- far future of the game ), pretty much every single step is taking more time than expected, from the AC release, to the multiplayer access soft launch, pretty much the same content wise ( well we did end up having a new mod so there is that I guess ), and I'm not even sure we can expect to see anything new about things which created a huge amount of reaction like the control scheme/IFCS in a matter a months.

Do people still think that AC 2.0 isn't between 4 and 6 month behind schedule/won't make it for the end of the year like it was supposed to ( while we might have 1.0 by then ? ). And while they do are very transparent on many things, do we have any official word on those aspect of Arena commander ? do most people have the slighlest idea about when to expect their given ship to make it inside the module ?



Chris explained the reasoning behind calling it pre-alpha in a recent 10 for the Chairman episode. Transcript pulled from here.

Algared Asks: How/when do you envisage implementing the Beta testing? Will beta testing be implemented by module while alpha is testing other modules, or will beta be a final test of the whole package prior to release?

Answer: So I know I read this on the forums where everyone argues over what alpha/pre-alpha/beta etc is, but to give you my ideas: The reason we call AC pre-alpha is because my definition of alpha is not content complete but generally functionally complete, where beta is content and functionality complete but you're trying to fix bugs. So in alpha you're kind of honing and tweaking bugs without having all your content in, but in Beta you have the content AND features, you're just getting rid of bugs. SO for AC you could say that at the moment we're pre-alpha for AC, when we get to v1.0 we'd call it an Arena Commander Alpha, and then it'll roll to Beta once. But the alpha and beta descriptions we usually use to mean the whole game, so one of the reasons we call AC a pre-alpha is we're rolling out sections of a bigger alpha of the whole game individually to test them and get feedback to improve them. Once they're ok we'll roll them all into a main alpha, then beta, then release. They're released much in much rougher form than what we would usually in any other game, just to stress test things with many many users. So once all these modules are in alpha we can roll them together to form a game alpha, but with missing content, like planets and missions/scenarios/ships etc, but all the functionality is there, but then once the content is ready we'd start calling it the BETA of SC, where it was mostly bug fixes and optimisation before release. I hesitate to say "done" because as long as you guys are having a good time, and we can keep a viable business going we'll keep adding content and features, to keep getting closer to the BDSSE. There's a long way to go there, so, I don't want anyone to think that's where we are now, but that's definitely our goal and ambition, that's the beauty of being online is that we can constantly work to make it a better and bigger game. I know people are worried about things like feature creep, but people have code they can sit and play/interact with and as we get more of it we keep adding to what you have and I hope we'll be around long enough that in 10 years time we'll get to see what the universe sees and feels like compared to what we're thinking now, looking back over all the cool changes and the twists and turns along the way. Even now when you look at the 2012 Hornet you can see the constant improvement and iterations along the way. I understand that at the moment it's like, you're seeing the sausage get made, but at the end it'll be damn good good sausage at the end!

I don't see how calling it pre-alpha is merely a PR choice to protect it from criticism when it seems pretty clear that they want the criticism...
 

ZoddGutts

Member
I think I've finally had enough. Arena commander has been a frustrating and miserable experience no matter what I try to do outside of the bot mode and that simply isn't fun after a few runs. I'm tired of getting rammed all the damn time or seeing a missile lock as soon as I respawn. Having to wait until someone decides to kill him or I crash into something as the Aurora has no eject system designed. All the other issues surrounding the game have been eating away at me since buying the package but tonight was my limit. If this is at all a hint at what pvp will be like (due to how things control) in the final game I want no part of it. If the PvE/PvP slider idea is still in I'm likely going to have it fully on PvE. Rather deal with npcs. I don't need this type of frustration.

So I've just uninstalled everything. Going to make a note near my PC so I'll remember I actually have a package so whenever this thing is finally ready for retail I'll remember to check it out. Actually considering exchanging the arena commander pass for credit as it's worthless I feel given the state of things. Rather have the $5 dollars back all together so I'm just out $45 instead of $50 but oh well. Might be more worthwhile to put it toward the sound track (I did like the music I did hear in AC) or the map.

Now do the right thing by throwing more money at Elite: Dangerous.
 
So I've just uninstalled everything. Going to make a note near my PC so I'll remember I actually have a package so whenever this thing is finally ready for retail I'll remember to check it out. Actually considering exchanging the arena commander pass for credit as it's worthless I feel given the state of things. Rather have the $5 dollars back all together so I'm just out $45 instead of $50 but oh well. Might be more worthwhile to put it toward the sound track (I did like the music I did hear in AC) or the map.

Have you actually tried asking for a refund? It's possible they might just give you one. It's a shame you didn't back it earlier because then you'd have the option for reselling the package and actually make a profit out of it.
 

Effect

Member
Have you actually tried asking for a refund? It's possible they might just give you one. It's a shame you didn't back it earlier because then you'd have the option for reselling the package and actually make a profit out of it.

I've tried contacting customer service twice to ask for one. I was rejected both times. The reason I was given was it was against their TOS. I've tried contacting Ben Lesnick recently but haven't heard back from him, maybe yet or at all. Figure since he's the community manager I might have luck there but I'll see.
 
I've tried contacting customer service twice to ask for one. I was rejected both times. The reason I was given was it was against their TOS. I've tried contacting Ben Lesnick recently but haven't heard back from him, maybe yet or at all. Figure since he's the community manager I might have luck there but I'll see.

That's a shame. Hopefully Ben can give you the answer you want. Otherwise I suppose you could try hawking it for slightly lower than cost here or on reddit or something. It would still be a loss but not quite as much.
 

Blizzard

Banned
I've tried contacting customer service twice to ask for one. I was rejected both times. The reason I was given was it was against their TOS. I've tried contacting Ben Lesnick recently but haven't heard back from him, maybe yet or at all. Figure since he's the community manager I might have luck there but I'll see.
That does seem a bit weird considering how much money they've made, I imagine it wouldn't hurt them to offer an occasional refund even if they have to adjust the TOS to do it.
 

VulpX

Member
If they start refunding everybody who is upset about the game in pre alpha there would be no end to it.

Don't forget, you didn't buy the game, you invested in something and as a reward you got a ship and are allowed to play the game. You took a risk when you decided to invest in something prior to completion, just as every other crowdfunded project.
 

Blizzard

Banned
If they start refunding everybody who is upset about the game in pre alpha there would be no end to it.

Don't forget, you didn't buy the game, you invested in something and as a reward you got a ship and are allowed to play the game.
HOLD IT! </Phoenix Wright>

If you're investing in something, doesn't that mean that all the rules and regulations that go along with investments should now come into play? Project CARS got hit by this very thing in the UK.

However, Project CARS was crowdfunded with the intent of providing some share of the profits to members, and Star Citizen is not. That seems to make Star Citizen even less like an investment to me.

And with 40+ MILLION DOLLARS do you truly think there would be no end if some people got their accounts refunded? If there is truly no end, that means all $40 million would be refunded. If there are really enough people to want $40 million refunded, four years before release, shouldn't that be an immediate cause for major concern? I think you may be exaggerating.


*edit* I'm not a lawyer but this is confusing:
Star Citizen TOS said:
RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.
OK, so it's non-refundable until it's 12+ months late...

Star Citizen TOS in the next section said:
For the avoidance of doubt, in consideration of RSI&#8217;s good faith efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Game with the funds raised, you agree that any deposit amounts applied against the Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost as described above shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not RSI is able to complete and deliver the Game and/or the pledge items.

If it's non-refundable no matter what, why did they even include the previous item?
 

VulpX

Member
HOLD IT! </Phoenix Wright>

If you're investing in something, doesn't that mean that all the rules and regulations that go along with investments should now come into play? Project CARS got hit by this very thing in the UK.

However, Project CARS was crowdfunded with the intent of providing some share of the profits to members, and Star Citizen is not. That seems to make Star Citizen even less like an investment to me.

And with 40+ MILLION DOLLARS do you truly think there would be no end if some people got their accounts refunded? If there is truly no end, that means all $40 million would be refunded. If there are really enough people to want $40 million refunded, four years before release, shouldn't that be an immediate cause for major concern? I think you may be exaggerating.
It's a figure of speech, of course they are not going to lose all $40 million to refunds.

But if they start to give refunds I do think they'll lose a considerate amount of money. Just take a look at the general forums and see the huge amount of people screaming "OW MY GAWD THIS GAME SUXXXX!!!" or some equivalent.

IF they ever start giving refunds, they should do so when the game is gold.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
*edit* I'm not a lawyer but this is confusing:

Star Citizen TOS said:
RSI agrees to use its good faith business efforts to deliver to you the pledge items and the Game on or before the estimated delivery date. However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a promise by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of the deposit shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the pledge items and/or the Game to you within 12 months after the estimated delivery date.

OK, so it's non-refundable until it's 12+ months late...



If it's non-refundable no matter what, why did they even include the previous item?

So does that mean if the final PU isn't released and the physical rewards aren't delivered by November 2015, CIG will be required to comply with any refund requests?
 

Blizzard

Banned
So does that mean if the final PU isn't released and the physical rewards aren't delivered by November 2015, CIG will be required to comply with any refund requests?
The second section I quoted seems to indicate it's non-refundable no matter what (as long as their Terms Of Service are found to be legal).

That's why I was confused they even mentioned the 12-month thing.
 

Smiley90

Stop shitting on my team. Start shitting on my finger.
I think the biggest testament to this game being truly in pre-alpha is that they're aiming for a 2018 release date or so. FOUR YEARS FROM NOW. It's not like we're in a "beta" 1 month before release that's literally a demo to advertise the final product. This game is FAR from being anywhere but alpha. You can't expect a final product with gold quality YEARS before release. If you expected any more than that that's your own fault.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
I don't think they'll have enough money to develop with a full team through 2018, let alone 2020. They'd have to bring LTI back, and even then, I'm not sure it would help much because I suspect people's patience would be worn thin at that point. They need to get the PU out in 2016 or they're screwed.
 

Daedardus

Member
I don't think they'll have enough money to develop with a full team through 2018, let alone 2020. They'd have to bring LTI back, and even then, I'm not sure it would help much because I suspect people's patience would be worn thin at that point. They need to get the PU out in 2016 or they're screwed.

You do realise that they still make two million/month, a number that will only increase when there will be actual gameplay for your money?
 

Daedardus

Member
I reckon it will only speed up. Once more ships become flyable, they alone bring in more than half a million/ship in that small timeframe after launch. Right now they should be break even in total costs, with an already accumulated reserve. I wouldn't worry too much. And why is everyone suddenly so negative? A decent part of the game will come sooner than everyone expects.
 

Zabojnik

Member
I'm curious to see how the motion/performance capture stuff is proceeding. They were/are shooting for Ryse-like quality. CIG's people seemed to be quite unfamiliar with the tech in general, so I dying to see where they are at now, after 6+ months. I'm in primarily for SQ42, so this is pretty important to me.
 

KKRT00

Member
I'm curious to see how the motion/performance capture stuff is proceeding. They were/are shooting for Ryse-like quality. CIG's people seemed to be quite unfamiliar with the tech in general, so I dying to see where they are at now, after 6+ months. I'm in primarily for SQ42, so this is pretty important to me.

I think they had most motion capture sessions scheduled for early fall and late summer.
 

Tommyhawk

Member
The racing track presentation is now pretty much confirmed:

944x531.jpg
 

Buggy Loop

Member
My GPU upgrade made me finally be able to walk around the hangar without 4fps... Im glad for the upgrade, quite smooth now. I tried Arena commander for the first time today. Im kind of disapointed. The controls feels off, even laggy sometimes, very small "arena" too, i couldnt believe that after 3 seconds of warning that im going off limits that i then see my ship float away and i have to respawn, cmon. But the ship just doesnt feel right. Anyway, i know its a game very far away, but i still think they made bad early choices in this project.
 

Soi-Fong

Member
My GPU upgrade made me finally be able to walk around the hangar without 4fps... Im glad for the upgrade, quite smooth now. I tried Arena commander for the first time today. Im kind of disapointed. The controls feels off, even laggy sometimes, very small "arena" too, i couldnt believe that after 3 seconds of warning that im going off limits that i then see my ship float away and i have to respawn, cmon. But the ship just doesnt feel right. Anyway, i know its a game very far away, but i still think they made bad early choices in this project.

Pre-alpha, flight model isn't final, "we were rushed in releasing it," you know all that jazz so far with SC.
 
I'm curious to see how the motion/performance capture stuff is proceeding. They were/are shooting for Ryse-like quality. CIG's people seemed to be quite unfamiliar with the tech in general, so I dying to see where they are at now, after 6+ months. I'm in primarily for SQ42, so this is pretty important to me.

This was posted on /r/Starcitizen. I'm guessing a sneak peak at the quality of the mocap:
HarshImmediateBluejay.gif
 
I just really hope there's more to it than racing and a Constellation commercial. It's been a bit now since AC came out and their dev pipeline seems almost as bad as Blizzard's. Stuff like a new map, or a ship being added to the hangar, or ship being added as flyable are pretty lame big bullet point features. Wow you managed to get a new ship into the hangar after a few months?! OMG SO AMAZING.

This is coming from someone who actually likes the flight model =P. I still have faith they'll pull this project off, more than most that like to drive by shit on it "Hey come buy Elite instead since you can only play one space game that's a rule!", but they're moving slower than my Aurora -_-
 
Patch already downloading. Now I'm itching to see the Constellation variants and choose one.

They released a patch? Hot damn.

I just really hope there's more to it than racing and a Constellation commercial. It's been a bit now since AC came out and their dev pipeline seems almost as bad as Blizzard's. Stuff like a new map, or a ship being added to the hangar, or ship being added as flyable are pretty lame big bullet point features. Wow you managed to get a new ship into the hangar after a few months?! OMG SO AMAZING.

This is coming from someone who actually likes the flight model =P. I still have faith they'll pull this project off, more than most that like to drive by shit on it "Hey come buy Elite instead since you can only play one space game that's a rule!", but they're moving slower than my Aurora -_-

There will be surprises man, I would not worry about it.
 

Zabojnik

Member
I just really hope there's more to it than racing and a Constellation commercial. It's been a bit now since AC came out and their dev pipeline seems almost as bad as Blizzard's. Stuff like a new map, or a ship being added to the hangar, or ship being added as flyable are pretty lame big bullet point features. Wow you managed to get a new ship into the hangar after a few months?! OMG SO AMAZING.

This is coming from someone who actually likes the flight model =P. I still have faith they'll pull this project off, more than most that like to drive by shit on it "Hey come buy Elite instead since you can only play one space game that's a rule!", but they're moving slower than my Aurora -_-

It's all about the journey, brah, not the destination.
 
updated connie in the hangar now w/ merlin, very buggy though but looks okay. Hate the new bathroom so looks like its a definite upgrade to the luxury variant
 

Zabojnik

Member
Just as well, since my internet has decided I can only utilise 1% of the bandwidth today for some reason. How soon is the archive usually up on Twitch?
 
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