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Star Fox Zero |OT| The Fox Awakens

It's why I have such a disdain for 2D fighters. I'm not going to bother learning a control scheme for a game that can be technically finished in 20 minutes. There's just no reward there.
This exact reply was in my head multiple times, i was waiting for someone different to bring up the lenght argument again to use it as an example, but besides the usual users the opportunity didn't show up.

Incredible... like word for word exact. Well done.

The other part to complete the Fighter example, would have been:

How much the plot and narrative aspects of a fighting game should influence the appraisal or score in the case of reviewer. There are aspects of a game that take precedence above others depending of multiple factors, things like genre, budget or even the creator's vision.
 

goldenpp72

Member
Finished the game today, a couple of the medal missions like not being hit in phase 1 of Sector Omega were a real pain for me, still I had a lot of fun and really felt like I got the controls down in the end. I beat Arcade mode once after doing these as well, so I think I got a good fill of the game. I know these scores aren't as impressive as some but, I also don't know all the little tricks, I always used lock on and such, though I did find out about hitting downed enemies.

WVW69jN_sp482Slt2d


On to Guard next :p
 

kunonabi

Member
Finished the game today, a couple of the medal missions like not being hit in phase 1 of Sector Omega were a real pain for me, still I had a lot of fun and really felt like I got the controls down in the end. I beat Arcade mode once after doing these as well, so I think I got a good fill of the game. I know these scores aren't as impressive as some but, I also don't know all the little tricks, I always used lock on and such, though I did find out about hitting downed enemies.

WVW69jN_sp482Slt2d


On to Guard next :p

Man I haven't even touched guard yet. I spent like 15 hours on story mode, maybe an hour on training mode, and finishing up arcade is going to take me around another 17 hours. 30+ hours on Zero before even starting Guard is definitely getting my monies worth.
 

illusionary

Member
So, Corneria 2... my runs this evening have been 369, 368, 367 (not an encouraging pattern...) - but then, 379! :D

And with that, I've got my 70th medal, so that's me pretty much done. I'll go back and clear the training/challenge missions that I've not yet done, but I don't think that I need Arcade Mode for now.

I suppose unlocking the sound test *might* change that... do I need to complete every Arcade Mode path for that, or just one?
 
So, Corneria 2... my runs this evening have been 369, 368, 367 (not an encouraging pattern...) - but then, 379! :D

And with that, I've got my 70th medal, so that's me pretty much done. I'll go back and clear the training/challenge missions that I've not yet done, but I don't think that I need Arcade Mode for now.

I suppose unlocking the sound test *might* change that... do I need to complete every Arcade Mode path for that, or just one?
Just one and
over 2000 hits i think?
At least that was the case for me since im not using any guides or anything that might spoil any surprises. Want to avoid the same pitfall as some that people complain about how qucikly they experienced everything yet they relied on guides XD

It's also quite engaging and satisfying figuring out by my own strategies and tricks to get the medals, even if they might not be the most optimized ones.
 

Regiruler

Member
So, Corneria 2... my runs this evening have been 369, 368, 367 (not an encouraging pattern...) - but then, 379! :D

And with that, I've got my 70th medal, so that's me pretty much done. I'll go back and clear the training/challenge missions that I've not yet done, but I don't think that I need Arcade Mode for now.

I suppose unlocking the sound test *might* change that... do I need to complete every Arcade Mode path for that, or just one?

Really? When I really put pedal to the medal, I got 404 on my first try.

Just one and
over 2000 hits i think?
At least that was the case for me since im not using any guides or anything that might spoil any surprises. Want to avoid the same pitfall as some that people complain about how qucikly they experienced everything yet they relied on guides XD

It's also quite engaging and satisfying figuring out by my own strategies and tricks to get the medals, even if they might not be the most optimized ones.

No need to spoil anything, there's no point requirement.
 

SCReuter

Member
Didn't even unlock the challenge missions?

I know, but it's the only high scores I can find for Training Mode. There's nothing else on YouTube. If anyone here has topped them (442 Walker, 300 Gyrowing, 300 Landmaster, 216 ???), feel free to chime in!
 
I appreciate and respect you coming back to say this. I find myself getting in heated back and forth with Nintendo fans a lot because I'm very passionate about storytelling and presentation in video games and often feel like they intentionally hold themselves back from capitalizing on what could be truly special.

I'm as passionate as you are when it comes to any form of art. :)

But for me, I don't think videogames is the best medium to tell a narrative. Stories are best expressed through books, visual novels or cinema where there is no requirement to fit in user inputs that only detract from the author's original pace and message. In my years of playing videogames, there has not been one story that stands out when compared to what the other media has delivered. Almost always, the story is ruined in videogames. For instance, the Lord of the Rings is better presented as a novel, and to some extent as a movie. But when you make a game out of it, you end up with "GOTY" junk like Shadow of Mordor. Adding narratives to video games tend to split the time in presenting the story and in having the player participate in the experience. As a result, the best qualities that make a motion picture good and a video game worth playing are severely compromised.

I do admit that that there are instances when story and gameplay are combined to produce a cohesive result. We have games like the masterful Pheonix Wright where you have to know the story in great detail for you to progress in the game. But then that game relied on its writing more than the visuals and sounds. Another example is Kid Icarus Uprising where the narrative was presented while the player was busy flying and shooting. However, the story didn't really matter in that game. It was good only to make me laugh. I had a blast playing that masterpiece. It ranks high up there with Astroboy: Omega Factor and The World Ends With You.

As for presentation, I thought Star Fox Zero was superb. Its clean and 60fps art style is a throwback to the 90's arcade graphics which I love. The sound effects are crisp and effective in giving a good feedback to the player. The music is also great. This game will age well for modernizing the 32-bit look, just as Shovel Knight and Slain will be remembered fondly for using a refined version of 16-bit era graphics.

I assume we've all been playing games our whole lives and care about them a lot seeing as how we've bothered to make accounts and post on this site. But priorities are different between everybody. On the Nintendo side, I see Mario Galaxy breaking new bounds with its stunning opening and finale setpieces, slower pace with greater contextualization, and touching story with Rosalina. Then Miyamoto gains greater control over Galaxy 2 and ALL of that gets cut. Today we have 3D World going even further in this direction. Wtf. Why?

I belong to the school of Miyamoto. It is the player who will make a story out of playing the game. I fondly remember playing StarCraft and the times the battle was turned around with a massive zergling drop that literally destroyed my opponent's base. Oh man, those were the times and I love watching the replays. And there are countless stories as well playing COD, CS, NBA 2K, FIFA, Virtual On, VF2 and so on.

It's not about copying Hollywood man, it's art. I do photography as a hobby, and the fact that video games are capable of taking advantage of the aspects of film that makes that medium so compelling is a huge reason why I love them so much. I hate this reductive stance people take on video games just "becoming" movies when all that's happening is the adaptation of the strengths that medium can provide gaming.

Art is all around us, but I only appeciate art at its very finest. If I want to see the best shots, I look at photography. If I want to see the best film, I go watch Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day, Ridley Scott's Bladerunner or Stanley Kubric's 2001: A Space Odyssey. I cannot stand B-movies such as Uncharted 4. Its production values will not change the fact that it's a lousy narrative.

Anyway, as another poster said, gameplay is by itself an art. Gameplay in videogames is the one area where other media such as books, visual novels and movies don't have. Therefore, gameplay should be the primary focus in judging a videogame whether it is good or bad. The other factors are merely cosmetic. Every videogame should be stripped of its superficial layers such as graphics, music and sound in order for us to tell what it's all about. And it is in gameplay that publishers and developers should be focusing 90% of their resources on. If publishers will spend $90,000,000 on presentation and spend only $10,000,000 on game mechanics and control, then it is only a matter of time that the industry will fall. Right now we are seeing the shift from console gaming to smart devices. I suspect that gamers--both casuals and hardcore alike--have found addicting gameplay mechanics in their smart phones. When they want to watch a narrative, they go to the movies.

To focus more on Star Fox and not get too far off topic- what is Star Fox to you? What can it be? What should it be, and why did the idea of a Star Fox game in 2016 excite you before Zero was announced? I'm genuinely asking. I've been excited for both Star Fox and F-Zero revivals for years, you could probably dig up old posts on here or other forums every E3 saying "F-Zero and Star Fox pls" or whatever. In my mind I picture a Saturday morning space opera with a charming, colorful cast of characters, beautiful and imaginative environmental design, jaw dropping cinematic setpieces, and high speed action. Kid Icarus Uprising delivers all of this. Star Fox Zero delivers literally none of this.

Star Fox Zero is my GOTY. After business, it is the game (along with Rocket League) that I look forward to playing for an hour or two before I go to bed.
 

Alpha_eX

Member
The co-op is extremely fun in that it allows one person to handle all the gyro aiming and cock pit view stuff, while giving the other player a basic gun and full control of movement. If you want a more traditional Star Fox experience and can find a person willing to be your wing man, it is a very good option.

The co-op is frustrating as hell in the boss battle as the pilots TV view goes into cinema mode, so they can't control the ship as the camera is sometimes facing the side of it.

The only way to effectively do a boss fight in co-op is to look at the gunners tiny GamePad screen, it's needlessly complex.

Also, if you finish mission 1 in co-op and start mission 2, it will start in single player, so you have to watch the intro and then quit, then go back in and select co-op.

The co-op was a last minute tack on, or just poorly designed.

I really wanted the co-op to be fun, but it's not, in the rare times when you're in the ship playing StarFox, it's fun, but most of the time it's just frustrating as hell for the gunner as the pilot struggles with the controls and your view is going all over the place.

The post I quote was very well written tho, kudos.
 
Also, if you finish mission 1 in co-op and start mission 2, it will start in single player, so you have to watch the intro and then quit, then go back in and select co-op.

The co-op was a last minute tack on, or just poorly designed.

That's just poor design. The game originated with that control concept, so it always had that kind of co-op in mind. Taking that into consideration though, that control scheme and co-op are "tacked on," to the Star Fox/64 template.

I found it to be functional overall, but only because I'd played through the entire game myself first. I can only imagine what it would've been like doing co-op from the start while unfamiliar with the game, or the series.
 

goldenpp72

Member
The co-op is frustrating as hell in the boss battle as the pilots TV view goes into cinema mode, so they can't control the ship as the camera is sometimes facing the side of it.

The only way to effectively do a boss fight in co-op is to look at the gunners tiny GamePad screen, it's needlessly complex.

Also, if you finish mission 1 in co-op and start mission 2, it will start in single player, so you have to watch the intro and then quit, then go back in and select co-op.

The co-op was a last minute tack on, or just poorly designed.

I really wanted the co-op to be fun, but it's not, in the rare times when you're in the ship playing StarFox, it's fun, but most of the time it's just frustrating as hell for the gunner as the pilot struggles with the controls and your view is going all over the place.

The post I quote was very well written tho, kudos.

I played the whole game in co-op and learned how to control the game perfectly in cinematic mode. Some bosses are designed with learning that in mind as well. If you can't control in that mode than how did you beat the last boss or androsa?
 

Nerrel

Member
It's why I have such a disdain for 2D fighters. I'm not going to bother learning a control scheme for a game that can be technically finished in 20 minutes. There's just no reward there.

You're talking about an entire genre, a popular one which has a very active competition scene and one in which its very easy to test your skills and play against others. I don't think many people buy a 2D fighter just to play single player. There's an expectation that you'll mainly be playing with others, and that's what the appeal of mastering the controls is.... For Starfox, the campaign has always been the main draw, and that was the thing people were buying this game to play. No one went into this expecting to use the controls for anything other than the single player missions, and you couldn't really use them for anything else even if you wanted to. You don't really have a real multiplayer mode to work with, and the split co-op you do have breaks up the control scheme you've been learning to use anyway.

Starfox Zero is a one-off game centered around a controller gimmick. There aren't other games using a similar scheme and there isn't even a guarantee a controller like this will exist next gen, so- unlike a fighter- any work you put into building up a skill here likely isn't going to be carried on anywhere else. I've spent enough time to get the controls to work and I've now done a few playthroughs... I don't feel like the time I invested was really worthwhile. I could do score attacks and heavily replay it over and over, but I just don't want to. Like I said, my enjoyment of the game has dwindled the more I've played it. Getting better at the controls hasn't led to them being more fun to use.

I can compare it to S&P 2 again, where the controls were a huge advancement over dual analog and fun to use from the start, and where I immediately felt a lot of satisfaction from replaying and besting scores. It was also a short game, but the fast acclimation to the remote felt appropriate for that kind of length. If I would have had to have passed the game once or twice over before the remote became usable, I don't know that I would have been excited about replaying it much. If the game gives you little that's fun the first time... why would you want to replay it?
 

illusionary

Member
Really? When I really put pedal to the medal, I got 404 on my first try.
Heh, I never claimed to be especially *good* at the game, even if I have enjoyed my time with it. I've started an Arcade Mode run in the hopes of unlocking the Sound Test, but I can just see myself getting to Andross and dying there.


Regiruler said:
No need to spoil anything, there's no point requirement.
Just one and
over 2000 hits i think?
At least that was the case for me since im not using any guides or anything that might spoil any surprises. Want to avoid the same pitfall as some that people complain about how qucikly they experienced everything yet they relied on guides XD.
Thanks both.


Edit: Arcade Mode done (well, once at least), Sound Test unlocked - I think that's everything now. I got myself up to Venom, then went back to the Main Game for a test run given the trouble that I've had with it previously. Well, I got through it first time (even still breaking the 170 hits barrier), which gave me the confidence to try it on my Arcade Mode run - and yep, all done. It's amazing how different it now feels compared with the first times that I attempted the stage! While I wouldn't say "mastered", I'm certainly accustomed to the controls now.

I'm loving the inclusion of Starwing's Corneria in Sound Test!
 

jariw

Member
You're talking about an entire genre, a popular one which has a very active competition scene and one in which its very easy to test your skills and play against others. I don't think many people buy a 2D fighter just to play single player. There's an expectation that you'll mainly be playing with others, and that's what the appeal of mastering the controls is.... For Starfox, the campaign has always been the main draw, and that was the thing people were buying this game to play. No one went into this expecting to use the controls for anything other than the single player missions, and you couldn't really use them for anything else even if you wanted to. You don't really have a real multiplayer mode to work with, and the split co-op you do have breaks up the control scheme you've been learning to use anyway.

Starfox Zero is a one-off game centered around a controller gimmick. There aren't other games using a similar scheme and there isn't even a guarantee a controller like this will exist next gen, so- unlike a fighter- any work you put into building up a skill here likely isn't going to be carried on anywhere else. I've spent enough time to get the controls to work and I've now done a few playthroughs... I don't feel like the time I invested was really worthwhile. I could do score attacks and heavily replay it over and over, but I just don't want to. Like I said, my enjoyment of the game has dwindled the more I've played it. Getting better at the controls hasn't led to them being more fun to use.

I can compare it to S&P 2 again, where the controls were a huge advancement over dual analog and fun to use from the start, and where I immediately felt a lot of satisfaction from replaying and besting scores. It was also a short game, but the fast acclimation to the remote felt appropriate for that kind of length. If I would have had to have passed the game once or twice over before the remote became usable, I don't know that I would have been excited about replaying it much. If the game gives you little that's fun the first time... why would you want to replay it?

For me this is a very strange approach to Star Fox Zero. I haven't played any previous Star Fox game before, but I made a good research before starting to play the Star Fox Zero game (just as I do with other new games). My own conclusion was that I would not move to the next level until I cleared the gold medal score goal on the current level. This approach has been very rewarding to me, since knowing the level inside out and how to tackle as much enemies as possible to get the most points is the focus of the game, to me. Playing through a level multiple times also quickly makes me master the controls.

For anyone just wanting to play through a game for start to end: don't play Star Fox Zero.

For any one who want a good or awarding story in a game: don't play Star Fox Zero.

For anyone who really want to master a level (similar to the Tropical Freeze speed runs, or the Pikmin 3 Mission challenges): make absolutely sure you play Star Fox Zero.
 
For me this is a very strange approach to Star Fox Zero. I haven't played any previous Star Fox game before, but I made a good research before starting to play the Star Fox Zero game (just as I do with other new games). My own conclusion was that I would not move to the next level until I cleared the gold medal score goal on the current level. This approach has been very rewarding to me, since knowing the level inside out and how to tackle as much enemies as possible to get the most points is the focus of the game, to me. Playing through a level multiple times also quickly makes me master the controls.

For anyone just wanting to play through a game for start to end: don't play Star Fox Zero.

For any one who want a good or awarding story in a game: don't play Star Fox Zero.

For anyone who really want to master a level (similar to the Tropical Freeze speed runs, or the Pikmin 3 Mission challenges): make absolutely sure you play Star Fox Zero.

How is it strange to say the game doesn't necessarily have a satisfactory amount or quality of content relative to its learning curve? He's responding to someone comparing this game's learning curve to that of fighting games, almost all of which have PvP.

If I had used a guide for medals not tied to score, I would've had them all after a few hours, and there's not much else to the game aside from local co-op and replaying levels I enjoy the game, but the content it has only incentives the player to push their skills so far. The Wolf duel is really challenging, but that's the peak of the dogfighting, and these controls would've made for great multiplayer PvP or multi PvE.

While 64 wasn't exactly brimming with content, it felt (feels, really) more full-fledged and complete a package than Zero does in some ways, which is nuts considering it's 20 years later. Zero really should've been better in every way, but it's lack of multiplayer and it having fewer whole stages than its 1997 predecessor keeps that from being a reality.

Saying "well, you have to play it in this one very specific way to enjoy it," doesn't mean much in response to criticism.
 
Some of you from the UK might be interested in Nintendo UK's score competition: http://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2016/May/Star-Fox-Zero-Ace-Pilot-Competition-1108328.html

The challenge? We want you to beat a Total Personal Best of 3000 hits across all of Star Fox Zero’s missions.

Every UK pilot that manages to beat this score and submit their pictorial proof via Twitter, using the hashtags #StarFoxZero and #AcePilot, before 12th June 2016 will receive a limited edition certificate and have their name immortalised here on Nintendo.co.uk!

The pilot with the highest overall score will claim both this certificate and a Star Fox Zero prize pack including…

Star Fox Zero canvas print
Fox amiibo
Falco amiibo
Star Fox Zero Collector’s Edition Prima Strategy Guide
Star Fox Zero T-Shirt
 

Simbabbad

Member
Saying "well, you have to play it in this one very specific way to enjoy it," doesn't mean much in response to criticism.
Actually, it does everything in response to criticism. Thank God, games don't have to totally fit a pre-established mould yet, and different genres can actually still exist.

If you play each Pac-Man CE DX level once and complain it's too short and doesn't have a deep enough story or enough content, you're a tool - same for Geometry Wars Galaxies, Radiant Silvergun, etc. Like Star Fox Zero, it was painfully clear what kind of game those were before anybody purchased them. The mentality you're endorsing is the reason why independent developers are now mostly the ones producing scoring games, and why big developers interest me less and less.
 
Actually, it does everything in response to criticism. Thank God, games don't have to totally fit a pre-established mould yet, and different genres can actually still exist.

If you play each Pac-Man CE DX level once and complain it's too short and doesn't have a deep enough story or enough content, you're a tool - same for Geometry Wars Galaxies, Radiant Silvergun, etc. Like Star Fox Zero, it was painfully clear what kind of game those were before anybody purchased them. The mentality you're endorsing is the reason why we're now mostly getting scoring games from independent developers, and why big developers interest me less and less.

I'm talking specifically about the criticism that the game does not have comparable incentives to a fighting game. A fighting game with deep, demanding mechanics/inputs will generally allow players to test the skills they've learned against other people. Zero doesn't have such a feature, so equating learning to play Street Fighter to learning to play Star Fox doesn't work.

Even equating Zero to other single player action games such as Bayonetta doesn't work as those games have actually challenging difficulty settings, whereas Zero has about one or two segments that are still demanding after getting all the medals and playing the game for 26 hours.

On its own, and without comparing it to other games, Zero feels lacking in content for a full-priced title (that was delayed, no less). Saying "well, it just so happened I immediately liked the controls and had to deliberately stretch out my time with the game to extract enjoyment out of it, and that happens to be tommy tastes," doesn't make those aspects of the game okay for anyone who doesn't have the same tastes. It doesn't refute that that game is content sparse in its own right, and when compared to other comparably demanding games of its type.

And that "story isn't deep enough," complaint is some strawman you're introducing from somewhere else. Where did I mention that? And where did Nerrel (whose post/criticism I was referring to) mention that? Seems like a lot of people who are defensive over this game resort to stawman arguments to distract from this $60 game's shortcomings. How much do all those games you mention cost? How do they stack up to their predecessors? How many levels do they have, and how often are they hit with criticism of lacking content or challenge for playing them normally? If you're trying to say others are tools for being disappointed with Zero, take a step back and read your posts again.
 

Simbabbad

Member
It doesn't refute that that game is content sparse in its own right, and when compared to other comparably demanding games of its type.
Please name a retail game that compares in any way to Star Fox Zero.

... from this $60 game's shortcomings.
It's 40 euros where I live, the same price as Geometry Wars Galaxies at its release on Wii, which is a marvel I've spent tens of hours on (and that I still play today), and which I don't think had less production value than Star Fox Zero (lol). Meanwhile, I've spent 60 euros on big budget games I've spent much less hours on, and which I thought were shallow wastes of time (and yet I didn't go to message boards complaining about it - I made the mistake of buying a game that didn't fit my tastes). The price argument is silly, to say the very least.

If you're trying to say others are tools for being disappointed with Zero, take a step back and read your posts again.
You're a tool for pretending you didn't know what genre Star Fox Zero was before buying it (if you actually did), and you're a tool for supporting the extinction of a whole genre. You already have tons of games in the genres you support, let scoring amateurs have the niche that still exists thanks in part to Nintendo.

BTW, I'm not 100% sold on this game for other reasons, but the arguments I replied to are just absurd, or, in the case of the ones that'd like Star Fox Zero to follow the AAA formula, toxic for the game industry.
 

Glowsquid

Member
You're a tool for pretending you didn't know what genre Star Fox Zero was before buying it (if you actually did), and you're a tool for supporting the extinction of a whole genre. You already have tons of games in the genres you support, let scoring amateurs have the niche that still exists thanks in part to Nintendo.

BTW, I'm not 100% sold on this game for other reasons, but the arguments I replied to are just absurd, or, in the case of the ones that'd like Star Fox Zero to follow the AAA formula, toxic for the game industry.

There's a world of difference between "Star Fox Zero doesn't have as much stuff as the game it's directly based on and replayable modes that are not about scoring/time attack" and the "Should have been Nintendo's Mass Effect!!!!" meme hacks like Emily Rogers are putting out. I wish this thread didn't devolve in an argument about the controls every three pages, and I like the game, but, jesus.
 

kunonabi

Member
There's a world of difference between "Star Fox Zero doesn't have as much stuff as the game it's directly based on and replayable modes that are not about scoring/time attack" and the "Should have been Nintendo's Mass Effect!!!!" meme hacks like Emily Rogers are putting out. I wish this thread didn't devolve in an argument about the controls every three pages, and I like the game, but, jesus.

People weren't seriously saying that, were they?
 

Glowsquid

Member
People weren't seriously saying that, were they?

Emily Rogers has rage-deleted pretty much all her sites and tumblr account so I can't link to the exact article where she argued that, but yes, there were people making arguments of the lines of "BEEP BOOP Star Fox Zero shouldn't be an OUTDATED RAIL SHOOTER UNWORTHY OF THE RETAIL MARKET BEEP BOOP. Why don't Nintendo make deep Star Fox RPG instead??????"
 

Simbabbad

Member
People weren't seriously saying that, were they?
I don't think anybody ever literally said that, but some people in this very thread said the game was way too light on story, dialogue and cutscenes, which is obviously completely missing the point of the game.

There's a world of difference between "Star Fox Zero doesn't have as much stuff as the game it's directly based on and replayable modes that are not about scoring/time attack" and the "Should have been Nintendo's Mass Effect!!!!" meme hacks like Emily Rogers are putting out.
I never got into Star Fox 64, I bought it on Wii VC and tried its remake on 3DS, and I'm really not seeing any sort of content gap. What's missing?

Also, I guess the "... that are not about scoring/time attack" part is everything, isn't it? It doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content, it means it doesn't have the content you personally want. And then, it's your problem, not the game's.

I was initially very disappointed when I discovered Pikmin 2 didn't have the time limit of Pikmin, because it completely destroyed the gameplay and challenge structure of the original game. But Pikmin 2 did things that the first didn't, and despite the similarities, the games were ultimately balanced very differently, yet of equal quality. If reviewers do their job, it's easy to see what genre a game is and avoid it if you're not into it.
 

kunonabi

Member
Emily Rogers has rage-deleted pretty much all her sites and tumblr account so I can't link to the exact article where she argued that, but yes, there were people making arguments of the lines of "BEEP BOOP Star Fox Zero shouldn't be an OUTDATED RAIL SHOOTER UNWORTHY OF THE RETAIL MARKET BEEP BOOP. Why don't Nintendo make deep Star Fox RPG instead??????"

Bloody ridiculous. I mean even if that was a worthwhile idea there was no way it would have made sense to put it on the Wii U instead of the NX to begin with.
 

Glowsquid

Member
I never got into Star Fox 64, I bought it on Wii VC and tried its remake on 3DS, and I'm really not seeing any sort of content gap. What's missing?

For one, and it's the biggest factor in me knocking down Zero's from "best Star Fox ever" to "pretty good" is that 64 has more individual levels and all of them stands as fully-featured missions, while the overwhelming majority of Zero's "alternate path" are either very short and basic, or fights against individual bosses or Star Wolf dogfights.

Now obviously, this isn't a perfect comparison as Zero's proper levels are slightly longer and the game offers optional challenges that had no equivalent in 64. But I get how the fact that Zero doesn,t surpass a 1997 game in all respects may be dissapointing to some.

Also, I guess the "... that are not about scoring/time attack" part is everything, isn't it? It doesn't mean the game doesn't have enough content, it means it doesn't have the content you personally want. And then, it's your problem, not the game's.

64, Assault, and Command all had competitive multiplayer modes, which is something Zero lacks and has no substitute for. Personally I think Star Fox's multiplayer is a bag of arse and I don't care about its absence, but clearly some people such as say, Trigger_Loaded, felt that mode had value and are dissapointed by its removal I don't think it's unreasonable criticism to point out the lack of a feature that was in a plurality of the previous games.

If Star Fox had no history of multiplayer, I could maybe understand your stance, but since it does, "the problem is with you, not the game" kinda reminds me of the debates at Street Fighter 5's release where complaints about the game's lackluster singe player compared to previous SFs was met with "Do people actually care about the plebian SP against braindead CPUs? The competition against real players is the real game!" . Evidently yes, they do.
 

Llyranor

Member
When we talk about score-based arcade-type games, I do consider Zero a bit lacking in content, but that's because some of the content is middling at most (for me).

The arwing on-rails sections are great, the dogfights are good. Most of the other bosses aren't really all that compelling for me, ultimately. I can appreciate that they're there to showcase the controls, but I don't find they bring much more beyond that, and replaying them because you're playing for score feels pretty repetitive for me. And I usually love a good bossfight. These just don't make me feel like I want to replay them and get better at them (same for all the non-arwing sections). And I say this while acknowledging that I certainly do appreciate them more now compared to my first playthrough.

If on-rails shooters weren't dead, Zero would be in the middle of the heap and I would have forgotten about it by now. I'm fine with the game being short (so were Orta/S&P2, but they feel like more 'complete' games, rather than a collection of missions tied together). My favorite to both of those games was that they were one of the best action games of their respective console generation - but I have no such inclination to make that claim for Zero, as much as I wish I could.

Basically I'm complaining about the relative lack of the best parts of the game (on-rails arwing & dogfights) and I would pay good money for DLC bringing more of that.
 

Simbabbad

Member
If Star Fox had no history of multiplayer, I could maybe understand your stance, but since it does, "the problem is with you, not the game" kinda reminds me of the debates at SF5's release where complaints about the game's lackluster singe player compared to previous SFs was met with "Do people actually care about the plebian SP against braindead CPUs? The competition against real players is the real game!" . Evidently yes, they do.
Shouldn't a series be allowed to change its focus for an instalment? I think the comparison with Street Fighter is very shoddy since both the arcade mode against the machine and the multiplayer were very important in all the earlier Street Fighter instalments, whereas Star Fox multiplayer has always been a side thing at best (and of arguable interest), isn't it? Implementing IA for a fighting game is a basic feature of the main mode in Street Fighter, whereas implementing multiplayer for a dual screen, scoring rail shooter is like developing an entire other game - and what percentage of gamers will really care? I get the impression it's more a matter of "I want value for money" and having stuff to throw at the game to bash it than genuinely caring about a mode.

And I stand that my Pikmin comparison is better suited: the removal of the time limit in Pikmin 2 changed the whole game, but it wasn't a worse game, it just went in a different direction.

This being said, I don't know yet if I love Star Fox Zero. My current issue is the constant recalibrating, it's not that much a problem (even if it's annoying) in the earlier levels I've unlocked all the medals in, but Area 3 (Satellite Mission 1) goes so fast that the drifting of calibration screws with me. I've frustratingly hit 195 points but not 200. I switched the motion controls to "only when ZR is pressed" and it's a bit better, but it makes me miss hits I really need.
 

Llyranor

Member
This being said, I don't know yet if I love Star Fox Zero. My current issue is the constant recalibrating, it's not that much a problem (even if it's annoying) in the earlier levels I've unlocked all the medals in, but Area 3 (Satellite Mission 1) goes so fast that the drifting of calibration screws with me. I've frustratingly hit 195 points but not 200. I switched the motion controls to "only when ZR is pressed" and it's a bit better, but it makes me miss hits I really need.
Maybe it's because I've used TrackIR a lot for flight sims, but I'm pretty comfortable with frequent recalibration. It's similar to recentering the camera in another action game like Ninja Gaiden or whatever. I've actually switched from 'hold ZR to aim' to full gyro as I got more used to the game.

For one, and it's the biggest factor in me knocking down Zero's from "best Star Fox ever" to "pretty good" is that 64 has more individual levels and all of them stands as fully-featured missions, while the overwhelming majority of Zero's "alternate path" are either very short and basic, or fights against individual bosses or Star Wolf dogfights.

Now obviously, this isn't a perfect comparison as Zero's proper levels are slightly longer and the game offers optional challenges that had no equivalent in 64. But I get how the fact that Zero doesn,t surpass a 1997 game in all respects may be dissapointing to some.
Yeah, this is how I feel. Some of these missions feel more like proof of concepts of the controls rather than compelling missions I want to replay to get better at.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Maybe it's because I've used TrackIR a lot for flight sims, but I'm pretty comfortable with frequent recalibration. It's similar to recentering the camera in another action game like Ninja Gaiden or whatever. I've actually switched from 'hold ZR to aim' to full gyro as I got more used to the game.
I prefer full gyro in general, but this specific level is kicking my ass. The speed makes me panic, but I'll make it eventually, I guess, since I managed to do 195 once.
 
Maybe it's because I've used TrackIR a lot for flight sims, but I'm pretty comfortable with frequent recalibration. It's similar to recentering the camera in another action game like Ninja Gaiden or whatever. I've actually switched from 'hold ZR to aim' to full gyro as I got more used to the game.

I am recalibrating like crazy in Splatoon, but Star Fox Zero is more comfortable for me to play with Motion on ZR, aside from few boss battles and score-breaking situations.
 

Glix

Member
I am having some trouble adjusting to the controls (to be fair, I have a million games to play right now and I've only played 3 sessions over the course of two weeks).

Besides that I love love love the game. It's exactly what I wanted.
 
I am having some trouble adjusting to the controls (to be fair, I have a million games to play right now and I've only played 3 sessions over the course of two weeks).

Besides that I love love love the game. It's exactly what I wanted.
An open mind is all you really need to get good! Over time you'll just keep getting better naturally.
 
You're a tool for pretending you didn't know what genre Star Fox Zero was before buying it (if you actually did), and you're a tool for supporting the extinction of a whole genre. You already have tons of games in the genres you support, let scoring amateurs have the niche that still exists thanks in part to Nintendo.
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For one, and it's the biggest factor in me knocking down Zero's from "best Star Fox ever" to "pretty good" is that 64 has more individual levels and all of them stands as fully-featured missions, while the overwhelming majority of Zero's "alternate path" are either very short and basic, or fights against individual bosses or Star Wolf dogfights.

Now obviously, this isn't a perfect comparison as Zero's proper levels are slightly longer and the game offers optional challenges that had no equivalent in 64. But I get how the fact that Zero doesn,t surpass a 1997 game in all respects may be dissapointing to some.



64, Assault, and Command all had competitive multiplayer modes, which is something Zero lacks and has no substitute for. Personally I think Star Fox's multiplayer is a bag of arse and I don't care about its absence, but clearly some people such as say, Trigger_Loaded, felt that mode had value and are dissapointed by its removal I don't think it's unreasonable criticism to point out the lack of a feature that was in a plurality of the previous games.

If Star Fox had no history of multiplayer, I could maybe understand your stance, but since it does, "the problem is with you, not the game" kinda reminds me of the debates at Street Fighter 5's release where complaints about the game's lackluster singe player compared to previous SFs was met with "Do people actually care about the plebian SP against braindead CPUs? The competition against real players is the real game!" . Evidently yes, they do.

It's not even the lack of multiplayer in respect to the precedent that's the problem. The game, in its own right, feels sprarse in things to do. I only truly enjoy the Arwing and Landmaster (and the Roadmaster, but that's another story) in every instance. I don't like going back to the Great Fox escort missions, definitely don't get any fun out of the Gyrowing segments. That any of these levels are more or less duds for me is a big problem considering how there are only about 9 normal stages (Corneria 1&2, Alpha, Area 3+satellite, Fortuna, Omega, Titania, and Fichina) that are what I come to the game for. After getting all medals, nothing in that game pushes the game mechanics to their limit of The way Wolf does, challenge-wise.

I've only liked Assault's multiplayer, and that was because its fan mechanics had some breadth to them and potential for fun back and forth. Similar situation to Zero where the Arwing controls finally offer a decent degree of control such that PvP Arwing-only multi would be decent ... But there's no PvP multi. The dogfights against Star Wolf are actually good here, and vs. would've been a good outlet to encourage people to learn the controls and keep playing.

The game's scope of development didn't allow for it, so there being no competitive multiplayer is understandable. But that doesn't change how h end product is received at large.

"Trigger-Loaded," is pretty good btw. 🙌
 

Glowsquid

Member
"Trigger-Loaded," is pretty good btw. ��

Ehehehe, sorry for the brain fart. a regular on another board I used to go to had that name.

I hate the Asteroids mission too. The mission where you chase Andrew is fun, but I'll probably never play it in arcade mode because then it means playing that horrible level after. Shooting random asteroids wasn't particularly fun when Freespace did it, and it's even worse here.
 
I'm talking specifically about the criticism that the game does not have comparable incentives to a fighting game. A fighting game with deep, demanding mechanics/inputs will generally allow players to test the skills they've learned against other people. Zero doesn't have such a feature, so equating learning to play Street Fighter to learning to play Star Fox doesn't work.

Even equating Zero to other single player action games such as Bayonetta doesn't work as those games have actually challenging difficulty settings, whereas Zero has about one or two segments that are still demanding after getting all the medals and playing the game for 26 hours.

On its own, and without comparing it to other games, Zero feels lacking in content for a full-priced title (that was delayed, no less). Saying "well, it just so happened I immediately liked the controls and had to deliberately stretch out my time with the game to extract enjoyment out of it, and that happens to be tommy tastes," doesn't make those aspects of the game okay for anyone who doesn't have the same tastes. It doesn't refute that that game is content sparse in its own right, and when compared to other comparably demanding games of its type.

And that "story isn't deep enough," complaint is some strawman you're introducing from somewhere else. Where did I mention that? And where did Nerrel (whose post/criticism I was referring to) mention that? Seems like a lot of people who are defensive over this game resort to stawman arguments to distract from this $60 game's shortcomings. How much do all those games you mention cost? How do they stack up to their predecessors? How many levels do they have, and how often are they hit with criticism of lacking content or challenge for playing them normally? If you're trying to say others are tools for being disappointed with Zero, take a step back and read your posts again.

Let's be honest here. For $60, the retail version of Star Fox Zero in North America contains Star Fox Guard. Both games were developed at the same time using the same assets that Nintendo could have made Guard a "minigame" within Zero and people wouldn't notice. Together, the $60 Zero + Guard package contains more content than any Star Fox game before it. I find Star Fox Guard to be more fun, innovative and challenging than any of the series' local multiplayer mode.
 
Ehehehe, sorry for the brain fart. a regular on another board I used to go to had that name.

I hate the Asteroids mission too. The mission where you chase Andrew is fun, but I'll probably never play it in arcade mode because then it means playing that horrible level after. Shooting random asteroids wasn't particularly fun when Freespace did it, and it's even worse here.

If there were a lot more stages or if they had their own unique bosses, those asteroid belt stages wouldn't stand out as being so bad. They feel tacked on.

Let's be honest here. For $60, the retail version of Star Fox Zero in North America contains Star Fox Guard. Both games were developed at the same time using the same assets that Nintendo could have made Guard a "minigame" within Zero and people wouldn't notice. Together, the $60 Zero + Guard package contains more content than any Star Fox game before it. I find Star Fox Guard to be more fun, innovative and challenging than any of the series' local multiplayer mode.

It's a pretty good game, similar to how Star Fox:Adventures was good.
 

Llyranor

Member
Zero actually put me back in the on-rails shooter mood, so I played some S&P2. Man, that game is so good. In the first two levels alone, there's already more compelling bosses than the entirety of Zero, for starters.
If there were a lot more stages or if they had their own unique bosses, those asteroid belt stages wouldn't stand out as being so bad. They feel tacked on.

Well, they feel like the short extra challenge missions you get in other Platinum games like Metal Gear Rising or Transformers Devastation, except instead of 50 you get 8. It stings more when one of them is a miss.
 

bart64

Banned
Zero actually put me back in the on-rails shooter mood, so I played some S&P2. Man, that game is so good. In the first two levels alone, there's already more compelling bosses than the entirety of Zero, for starters.

I don't agree, Zero bosses are super fun to perfect, they have layers of strategy, and they exploit the dual screen system in all different ways. I just had the best time dying to star wolf in the one on one snow battle. It's like the whole game, including the final boss funnily enough, has been preparing me for this match up and it's still super hard and I can't wait to try it again once I get over how badly I got shot down over and over again.

I didnt get a chance to play a lot of the recent hard games like bloodborne. It's been maybe since resident evil 4 that i have felt this kind of thrill from a formidable AI opponent.

btw, anyone think there is some kind of automation in the aiming calibration? Sometimes I forget about it and it works perfectly for the whole level, and sometimes i feel like I need to recalibrate too much, especially when holding spretty still. I have noticed that it slowly centers when you dont move sometimes, i think it may also find new centers on its own.
 
I don't agree, Zero bosses are super fun to perfect, they have layers of strategy, and they exploit the dual screen system in all different ways. I just had the best time dying to star wolf in the one on one snow battle. It's like the whole game, including the final boss funnily enough, has been preparing me for this match up and it's still super hard and I can't wait to try it again once I get over how badly I got shot down over and over again.

Yep. As much as I like S&P2, the game is basically a 2D shooter with the illusion of 3D. The bosses in S&P2 feel flat. SFZ's world is much deeper. It literally has depth.
 
Some of you from the UK might be interested in Nintendo UK's score competition: http://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2016/May/Star-Fox-Zero-Ace-Pilot-Competition-1108328.html
I have 3090 hits(unfortunately it's only in UK, I live in France) and I don't call myself an ace pilot.It seems they have put the bar very low on this game lol, and when you see the score of people on miiverse, there are a lot of people that handle this game perfectly and above these 3000 hits.
 

leroidys

Member
"Beat" the game this past week and really enjoyed it. Getting even more out of now going back to get the medals.

Overall, it took me a little bit to start to grasp the controls. Once I figured out that you don't need to use the gamepad very often, and z-targetting is mainly for bosses, the controls really clicked and made sense. Especially as someone who didn't like Skyward Sword, I hate it when I'm on the receiving end of "git gud" arguments, but it's really hard not to level this at some of the games more strident detractors. The controls have a certain learning curve, but they work so well once you get them, and it is definitely an experience that's enhanced byt he gamepad. People say "I beat the entire game and the controls are still shit" but... dude, the main campaign is only like 3 hours long. Do people want a game that they can master in 3 hours? Yes, I guess they do.

I love the variety present in levels. I love the different vehicles, and especially the transforming arwing. It's such a good choice for the series. Very interesting that they figured this out for SF2 but didn't execute on it until now.

I'm a little disappointed that the story is SO minimal. No, I don't need something like Adventure or Command, but with Platinum at the helm I was at least hoping for a little more witty banter.

I love that it's a pure arcade shooter with a tight gameplay loop, a medium learning curve, and a large execution curve, with plenty of incentive to go back and improve. Very similar to my favorite game on Wii U, Pikmin 3. Shame there's no leaderboards in SF0 though.

My biggest complaint is just that there isn't more. I would have loved an online multiplayer mode with the vastly improved dogfighting mechanics. I hope we see something like this on NX.
 
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