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[-COOLIO-]

from now on, im going pure bio and vacs in tvt until it works. AND IT WILL WORK.

 

[Bjern Fita]

I'd say not a chance of genuine Lurkers being back in multiplayer.
Lurkers proper might be in the campaign, though.

As our mate here says, don't hold your breath for any new multiplayer units.

You'll get a buttload to play with in the next 2 campaigns (which I'm hoping will be as awesome fun as the 1st).

But asking to completely balance/rebalance a game such as this every 18 months?

Get the fuck out guys. Yes it was done in Broodwar but I reckon there's buckley's of it happening again.

I think this is Starcraft 2 as it will be in 5 years (as in no new units, balancing will obviously occur as Blizzard sees fit)

 

[iam220]

Here's what I'd like to see them do with the zerg:

Increase zerling hitpoints by 10-20%
reduce lair upgrade time by 50%
make spire cost 100 gas instead of 200.

Nothing too major but I think it'll do wonders.

 

[MurkyZebra2417]

I think this is Starcraft 2 as it will be in 5 years (as in no new units, balancing will obviously occur as Blizzard sees fit)

I don't think so. They added new units to MP in Brood War and in Frozen Throne, so they will also add them in Starcraft 2 Addons.

edit: Heck, they reinvented the whole Multiplayer experience in Frozen Throne with major changes.

 

[Yaweee]

As our mate here says, don't hold your breath for any new multiplayer units.

You'll get a buttload to play with in the next 2 campaigns (which I'm hoping will be as awesome fun as the 1st).

But asking to completely balance/rebalance a game such as this every 18 months?

Get the fuck out guys. Yes it was done in Broodwar but I reckon there's buckley's of it happening again.

I think this is Starcraft 2 as it will be in 5 years (as in no new units, balancing will obviously occur as Blizzard sees fit)

Wait, you misunderstand what I said. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that there will be new units for multiplayer. It's just that I don't think there's any chance of those "new" units being BW/SC1 units just transplanted over.

Honestly, I'm expecting something similar to the SC1-BW or WC3-TFT jump in each of these expansions. 2 new units, 1 new upgrade.

 

[MurkyZebra2417]

Here's what I'd like to see them do with the zerg:

Increase zerling hitpoints by 10-20%
reduce lair upgrade time by 50%
make spire cost 100 gas instead of 200.

Nothing too major but I think it'll do wonders.

That are actually very major changes, every one of them ^^

 

[Yaweee]

Here's what I'd like to see them do with the zerg:

Increase zerling hitpoints by 10-20%
reduce lair upgrade time by 50%
make spire cost 100 gas instead of 200.

Nothing too major but I think it'll do wonders.

Zerglings are fine, lair time is fine unless you think mutalisks coming about a minute earlier is something that Protoss could easily ha. I think Spire is fine, as the high gas cost is kind of offset by not having any mandatory research skills, which are there in such number for zerg to make quick tech switches a little bit harder or costly.

A buff to roaches and maybe a buff to spine crawlers could likely solve the balance issue of not having enough valid openers.

If you increase zergling HP at all, you are increasing the number of hits it would take for a zealot +1 to kill a zergling, which would drastically, almost overwhelmingly, alter the PvZ matchup. Bad, bad idea.

 

[fatty]

As our mate here says, don't hold your breath for any new multiplayer units.

You'll get a buttload to play with in the next 2 campaigns (which I'm hoping will be as awesome fun as the 1st).

But asking to completely balance/rebalance a game such as this every 18 months?

Get the fuck out guys. Yes it was done in Broodwar but I reckon there's buckley's of it happening again.

I think this is Starcraft 2 as it will be in 5 years (as in no new units, balancing will obviously occur as Blizzard sees fit)

I don't believe he was saying that new units won't be in the expansion, just that the exact Lurker unit as we know it from Brood War won't be playable in multiplayer.

And I'd have to disagree, I bet we will see at least one new multiplayer unit in each race when the expansions roll around. I'm pretty sure I read some interviews with the developers that they already had some ideas going around.

 

[Won]

Here's what I'd like to see them do with the zerg:

Increase zerling hitpoints by 10-20%
reduce lair upgrade time by 50%
make spire cost 100 gas instead of 200.

Nothing too major but I think it'll do wonders.

That's pretty gamebreaking actually.

 

[Bjern Fita]

rethinking what I just wrote...

Not sure how they'll do it, but battle.net will be unified. As in, you must buy the new expansion to play. Not sure how that'll be done without adding more MP units (as MP is obviously where the legs on this game is).

I guess we'll see; I'm super happy to eat my words if Blizzard can expand on the multiplayer unit composition and keep everyone happy/balanced.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I think if they got reduced down to hatchery status and got an attack nerf things would balance out for them. Zerg would actually have an AA defense in T1 as well.

Alas with the no more major changes until expansions it is obvious that zerg will not get this change nor will any unit be removed. I just expect them to tweak Roaches a bit and maybe take M&M's down a notch.

IMO a damage nerf would not be needed for Hydras. Just make the range upgrade Lair tech and call it a day. That would at least make battles against MMM balls less of a pain. I wouldn't mind increasing the cost of Roaches either.

A lot of the problems Zerg run into with mech Terran is due to bad strategy. If you're charging seven siege tanks of course you're going to get destroyed. You have to catch the Terran army on the march. Getting Brood Lords asap is also a must.

Here's what I'd like to see them do with the zerg:

Increase zerling hitpoints by 10-20%
reduce lair upgrade time by 50%
make spire cost 100 gas instead of 200.

Nothing too major but I think it'll do wonders.

Agreed, although no need to change Lair time

 

[iam220]

Zerglings are fine, lair time is fine. I think Spire is fine, as the high gas cost is kind of offset by not having any mandatory research skills, which are there in such number for zerg to make quick tech switches a little bit harder or costly.

A buff to roaches and maybe a buff to spine crawlers could likely solve the balance issue of not having enough valid openers.

If you increase zergling HP at all, you are increasing the number of hits it would take for a zealot +1 to kill a zergling, which would drastically, almost overwhelmingly, alter the PvZ matchup. Bad, bad idea.

Yeah you're right, PvZ matchups would really change given the zerling buff. So I take that back. I'd still would like to get my mutas out a bit sooner then what's possible now.

 

[Pandaman]

They have a very good attack speed, though. Damage per hit doesn't mean much all-in-all unless it is low enough to suffer tremendously from armor or large to kill units in very few hits.

queens have 2 extra range, deal 9 and are only 0.17 seconds slower.
they're also cheaper and have more life without a type disadvantage.

you cant nerf hydras in t1 and then call them a solution to zerg AA.

 

[Yaweee]

rethinking what I just wrote...

Not sure how they'll do it, but battle.net will be unified. As in, you must buy the new expansion to play. Not sure how that'll be done without adding more MP units (as MP is obviously where the legs on this game is).

I guess we'll see; I'm super happy to eat my words if Blizzard can expand on the multiplayer unit composition and keep everyone happy/balanced.

Again, not a chance of forcing the new expansion to play. It is going to operate like every other expansion Blizzard has ever released.

Now, what happens when the second expansion comes out remains to be seen. Probably like WOTLK requiring TBC requiring WOW, but that is still 3 years away.

 

[ant_]

I think decreasing Lair time would actually help a lot

 

[Dresden]

That's pretty gamebreaking actually.

Gamebreaking? Asides from the zergling HP (which wouldn't do much in the long run), those are aren't exactly overpowered.

 

[TUSR]

Same thing happens to me. Is there a trick?

You explained your own problem
"I build the Marine, Maruader, medivacs and group them all together"

you're doing it wrong

 

[Raxus]

queens have 2 extra range, deal 9 and are only 0.17 seconds slower.
they're also cheaper and have more life without a type disadvantage.

you cant nerf hydras in t1 and then call them a solution to zerg AA.

I like the solution PD proposed better anyways. As long as you can keep pressure on zerg from a fast expand then hydras shouldn't be a problem. I just have nightmares from fighting zerg on Insane.

Also, I really hope they do something to zealots.

 

[Yaweee]

I think decreasing Lair time would actually help a lot

What this would do to Muta rushes is what discourages me from anything but a slight decrease. It is already one of the more effective strategies in all three matchups.

queens have 2 extra range, deal 9 and are only 0.17 seconds slower.
they're also cheaper and have more life without a type disadvantage.

you cant nerf hydras in t1 and then call them a solution to zerg AA.

I think it is entirely possible. Queens are nice, but they are defensive only, good against air only, and can only be built 1 at a time and not while the Hatchery is upgrading or doing research. Having something without those restrictions justifies a slightly less cost effective performance against air, as its easier to get more of them if they have more uses.

 

[Vaporak]

Thanks for the heads up on this. I need to make sure to change this once I get my copy and my new desktop. I would've been distraught to say the least if this were to happen to me after dropping $1,300.00 on a new desktop lol.

Why the hell would Blizzard not patch this ASAP? Makes no sense not to.

Because it's not Blizzards problem, it's either a user or hardware manufacturers problem. If other high end games won't overheat your system then neither will SC2. There is literally nothing SC2 can do to damage hardware thats working as intended.

 

[watervengeance]

Why not just make Hydralisk Den available after Spawning Pool again? The first few times I played Zerg for fun, it was so weird to find out that I had to get the Lair for Hydras.

Edit: If they're afraid that no one would ever get Roaches again, then make Roach Warren available after Lair and revert some of its original stats.

 

[Pandaman]

I think it is entirely possible. Queens are nice, but they are defensive only, good against air only, and can only be built 1 at a time and not while the Hatchery is upgrading or doing research. Having something without those restrictions justifies a slightly less cost effective performance against air, as its easier to get more of them if they have more uses.

'slightly less cost effective'? those benefits barely outweigh queens at the current cost and stats.

and i stress the barely. at 100 gas apiece... for a nerfed hydra... what the fuck.

@water: since roaches would still be a stronger counter versus zealots, hellions, hydralisks, zerglings, etc. people wouldnt neglect them for a t1 hydra. infact we'd see alot of t1 zergplay with alot more queens. it'd be interesting.

 

[Dresden]

Why not just make Hydralisk Den available after Spawning Pool again? The first few times I played Zerg for fun, it was so weird to find out that I had to get the Lair for Hydras.

Edit: If they're afraid that no one would ever get Roaches again, then make Roach Warren available after Lair and revert some of its original stats.

Don't see why not, although hydras do decimate gateway units. But then, they're fragile so it evens out, I guess... maybe roaches with 2 base armor instead as post-Lair units.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Why not just make Hydralisk Den available after Spawning Pool again? The first few times I played Zerg for fun, it was so weird to find out that I had to get the Lair for Hydras.

Edit: If they're afraid that no one would ever get Roaches again, then make Roach Warren available after Lair and revert some of its original stats.

I also agree with this. I'd keep Roaches at 2 food but give them a slight buff close to where they once were. Leave Lair tech build time as is, increase Roach gas cost from 25 to 50.

I wouldn't nerf Hydras, just increase the gas price. If not 100, 75.

 

[GhostRidah]

I miss seeing hydras, barely see them nowadays

 

[Dresden]

I also agree with this. I'd keep Roaches at 2 food but give them a slight buff close to where they once were. Leave Lair tech build time as is, increase Roach gas cost from 25 to 50.

I wouldn't nerf Hydras, just increase the gas price. If not 100, 75.

Still doesn't work. 25 gas would be perfect, 50 gas is a bit expensive, 75 is a ripoff and 100 is cripplingly expensive. Considering how gas-starved you can get with Zerg, that'd make hydras too damn expensive.

 

[Pandaman]

I wouldn't nerf Hydras, just increase the gas price. If not 100, 75.

why?
its bad enough they cost 50 at t2, why make them worse?

 

[watership]

Rage quiting makes me sad.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Still doesn't work. 25 gas would be perfect, 50 gas is a bit expensive, 75 is a ripoff and 100 is cripplingly expensive. Considering how gas-starved you can get with Zerg, that'd make hydras too damn expensive.

25 gas for Hydras, 50 for Roaches (with Lair) then? Dunno, 25 gas seems a too cheap. 50 would be better imo.

This would even things out a bit against Toss too. Right now I laugh when I see zealots charging up on me early because Roaches annihilate them. Hydras can micro them too obviously, but they have less xp/armor.

 

[Yaweee]

Honestly, I don't think there is any chance they would do a post-release-but-not-in-an-expansion tech swap that significant. Both of the units just need a bit of a buff to be made more viable, either out of the gate or due to a specific upgrade.

 

[Pandaman]

25 gas for Hydras, 50 for Roaches (with Lair) then? Dunno, 25 gas seems a too cheap. 50 would be better imo.

This would even things out a bit against Toss too. Right now I laugh when I see zealots charging up on me early because Roaches annihilate them. Hydras can micro them too obviously, but they have less xp/armor.

50 for 1 food roaches. maybe.

the zealot roach dynamic is fine, why would you want to remove the one hardcounter zerg actually has that isnt muta vs ground only unit?:\

 

[prodystopian]

Because it's not Blizzards problem, it's either a user or hardware manufacturers problem.If other high end games won't overheat your system then neither will SC2. There is literally nothing SC2 can do to damage hardware thats working as intended.

Actually, it is. They have a poor way to draw menus that takes up way too much power. While it is true that this shouldn't break hardware, it should have been patched by now.

 

[Raxus]

why?
its bad enough they cost 50 at t2, why make them worse?

That and it takes 100 minerals and gas just to make them available, nevermind the other 150 gas and minerals to get the distance upgrade.

 

[Hugbot]

Because it's not Blizzards problem, it's either a user or hardware manufacturers problem. If other high end games won't overheat your system then neither will SC2. There is literally nothing SC2 can do to damage hardware thats working as intended.

Nevermind that it is literally changing two variables, has no negative impact on the way the game looks or plays, and would stop all of the "SC2 melted my computer" business. Of course a properly cooled system won't be destroyed by it, but there's still no reason it needs to be maxing out your GPU during a menu.

 

[TheHeretic]

I think if they got reduced down to hatchery status and got an attack nerf things would balance out for them. Zerg would actually have an AA defense in T1 as well.

Alas with the no more major changes until expansions it is obvious that zerg will not get this change nor will any unit be removed. I just expect them to tweak Roaches a bit and maybe take M&M's down a notch.

Terran bioball is weak to Zerg, banelings simply wipe out an army three times more expensive than their cost. The problem with Terran is early pressure, having far more safe openings and mech.

 

[TUSR]

Actually, it is. They have a poor way to draw menus that takes up way too much power. While it is true that this shouldn't break hardware, it should have been patched by now.

I thought the reasoning behind it was that the menus were not frame capped?

 

[Pandaman]

That and it takes 100 minerals and gas just to make them available, nevermind the other 150 gas and minerals to get the distance upgrade.

'yay i built 4 hydras'
*blue flame hellions show up and roast em all*
oh.

or:
'yay i built a hydralisk'
*fear the reaper man*
oh.

 

[TimeKillr]

I miss seeing hydras, barely see them nowadays

When Zerg plays against Protoss, they need hydras to counter mass void rays. The only other counter is mass muta and even then.....

I've seen Hydras a ton in 3v3s as well, since those god damn medivacs heal zerg units. Hydras that can be healed = fucking annoying

 

[spazzfish]

ok i'm giving 1v1 a rest till blizzard fix things.
I don't mind losing (that much) but to lose the last 4 games on the spin to terran and actually
feel like there is nothing you can do to win as zerg is not funny.
Sigh...time to turn on the easy win mode and spam about in TF2 as the demoman

 

[Moussi]

ok i'm giving 1v1 a rest till blizzard fix things.
I don't mind losing (that much) but to lose the last 4 games on the spin to terran and actually
feel like there is nothing you can do to win as zerg is not funny.
Sigh...time to turn on the easy win mode and spam about in TF2 as the demoman

eh it's your fault to a certain degree why your losing. You need to be 5x better than the terran opponent.

 

[Bjern Fita]

Again, not a chance of forcing the new expansion to play. It is going to operate like every other expansion Blizzard has ever released.

Now, what happens when the second expansion comes out remains to be seen. Probably like WOTLK requiring TBC requiring WOW, but that is still 3 years away.

I have to disagree with this. SC isn't WoW. Leagues, tournaments and competitions are built into the way Blizzad has crafted this game. There'll be no supporting of anything except x.0.

Upgrade or get out.

Doesn't make any difference to me as I'll be there, but they will not support non-expanders in ranked.

(MP of course here,they wont shut off your terran SP)

 

[Major Williams]

Question from my friend:

While playing as Zerg, is there a quick way to get creep out on the front end of your base for defense?

There are two options:

- Hatchery
- Upgrade Hatchery -> Lair -> Upgrade Overlord creep

Which is the best/fastest option? Or is there a fast way to get creep eggs/some other method I don't know about?

 

[Yaweee]

I have to disagree with this. SC isn't WoW. Leagues, tournaments and competitions are built into the way Blizzad has crafted this game. There'll be no supporting of anything except x.0.

Upgrade or get out.

Doesn't make any difference to me as I'll be there, but they will not support non-expanders in ranked.

(MP of course here,they wont shut off your terran SP)

BW and SC1 are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.
WC3 and TFT are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.
Diablo 2 and LOD are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.

What makes you think that Starcraft 2 is going to use a different system?

This isn't some "I'm making an analogy to WoW" argument. This is an "I'm making an analogy to pretty much every product Blizzard has ever released" argument.

 

[Bjern Fita]

Question from my friend:

While playing as Zerg, is there a quick way to get creep out on the front end of your base for defense?

There are two options:

- Hatchery
- Upgrade Hatchery -> Lair -> Upgrade Overlord creep

Which is the best/fastest option? Or is there a fast way to get creep eggs/some other method I don't know about?

Queens are the creep spreaders. Gotta weigh up if extra larva or creep is the best first option once they pop.

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

Question from my friend:

While playing as Zerg, is there a quick way to get creep out on the front end of your base for defense?

There are two options:

- Hatchery
- Upgrade Hatchery -> Lair -> Upgrade Overlord creep

Which is the best/fastest option? Or is there a fast way to get creep eggs/some other method I don't know about?

Can't the queen extend the creep?

 

[Dresden]

Have the Queen poop out a creep dung, then use that dung to keep expanding creep before Lair.

 

[Bjern Fita]

BW and SC1 are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.
WC3 and TFT are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.
Diablo 2 and LOD are concurrently active and have completely separate ladders and games, and do not force users to upgrade if they don't want to, and let players go back and use the vanilla version if they want at any time.

What makes you think that Starcraft 2 is going to use a different system?

This isn't some "I'm making an analogy to WoW" argument. This is an "I'm making an analogy to pretty much every product Blizzard has ever released" argument.

Blizzard have a hand in casting and tournament hosting this time. There's no LAN, just competition version of SC2. Which Blizzard can make available at their discretion.

Perhaps it'll happen that they'll make everything open and accessible and allow those that don't pay them to continue to enjoy a supported, ranked online experience...

But if I had to take a stand (and that's the only thing that's interesting in board discussions; it's too convenient to qualify the shit out of everything) I'll stick with my have to upgrade stance.

Blizzard is constantly working on making their games more accessible. I can't see the home page advertising the SC2:WoL, SC2:HotS and SC2:LotV leagues.

 

[Vaporak]

Question from my friend:

While playing as Zerg, is there a quick way to get creep out on the front end of your base for defense?

There are two options:

- Hatchery
- Upgrade Hatchery -> Lair -> Upgrade Overlord creep

Which is the best/fastest option? Or is there a fast way to get creep eggs/some other method I don't know about?

Queens, you should be making more of them. Too many Zerg players think of the queen as synonymous with their hatchery.

 

[spazzfish]

Question from my friend:

While playing as Zerg, is there a quick way to get creep out on the front end of your base for defense?

There are two options:

- Hatchery
- Upgrade Hatchery -> Lair -> Upgrade Overlord creep

Which is the best/fastest option? Or is there a fast way to get creep eggs/some other method I don't know about?

Queens, you should be making more of them. Too many Zerg players think of the queen as synonymous with their hatchery.

This.
Especially if your pushing for a quick expand. Having 2 queens is good defence against early pushes combined with a spine crawler or 2 and a couple of lings. Just use one for the larvae and the other spreading creep till your expand pops up.

 

[Pandaman]

i still think the zerg techtree and unit strentghs are fine. the problem is that they're too weak to be reactionary given the time a zerg gets. stronger units and faster build times can fix this, but also upset other things.

i maintain that moving the overseer to t1 w/ lair unlocked contaiminate would solve all of zergs problems.

ovie drone would still be your go to proxy/2gate scouting tools, but imagine if instead of pulling gas or going quick lair, a zerg could morph overseer and double scout to see the beginnings of t2.

with that a zerg could make smart decisions to expand [and still be early], lair up, focus roach and ling, scout air rushes and make decisions to respond with an evo/spare queen or a fast lair tech.