MisterR
Member
No, I'm telling you what free speech is in regard to US law, which is what applies to this situation, not some pie in the sky magic idea where there are never any consequences for anything you say.
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Subnautica dev fired over 'insensitive tweets'
- Thread starter strange headache
- Start date
I read your comments, and actually ALL of you are right.
It's not fair.
People should be judged ONLY on their work.
BUT
Since the social media crazyness you should avoid express your opions when you know you can touch some social warriors idiots communities.
So guys make a fake account
really mine is not a provocation, sadly this is the only way to have your freedom without impacting your job.
I'm sure we will come to the point that a Patriots supporter could be fired if he makes a bad joke about Eagles.
Even Dolce&Gabbana were attacked by LBGT social warriors because their vision about adoption and surrogate mothers.
Something similar to nowdays "hollywood mafia" was called to boycott them by "LBGT gurus" like eton john!
If even gays are not "safe" to express against some extremists agenda inside LBGT community imagine others !
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...tt-dolce-gabbana-synthetic-ivf-babies-comment
It's not fair.
People should be judged ONLY on their work.
BUT
Since the social media crazyness you should avoid express your opions when you know you can touch some social warriors idiots communities.
So guys make a fake account
really mine is not a provocation, sadly this is the only way to have your freedom without impacting your job.
I'm sure we will come to the point that a Patriots supporter could be fired if he makes a bad joke about Eagles.
Even Dolce&Gabbana were attacked by LBGT social warriors because their vision about adoption and surrogate mothers.
Something similar to nowdays "hollywood mafia" was called to boycott them by "LBGT gurus" like eton john!
If even gays are not "safe" to express against some extremists agenda inside LBGT community imagine others !
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...tt-dolce-gabbana-synthetic-ivf-babies-comment
ilfait
Member
It's not that I don't sympathize with you, or the head of Subnautica's team; I do. I believe that the people who went after him are wrong and undeserving of sympathy; I believe that the person who fired him is wrong but is deserving of sympathy for finding himself in that situation; and I believe that the person who was fired did nothing wrong and is deserving of sympathy for being wrongfully deprived of his job despite, from all accounts, performing excellently.
Your conception of maintaining the right to fire an employee under any circumstances, as long as you believe he is hurting your business, becomes an unreasonable amount of power when you extend your expectations of code of conduct to the personal lives and personal time of your employees. Something like 8-10 hours of service and adherence a day is what you're paying for; to extend that code of conduct to what they say and do outside of those hours is not reasonable. Even if I never expected to cross any lines, run afoul of an employer during my free time, or be social media lynched in my lifetime, I'm not ok with a world that finds it acceptable to punish those who do.
We're repeating ourselves somewhat now. Hopefully I've made my opinion clear enough to you. I'm sure I understand yours.
strange headache
Banned
I respect that you had the tenacity to open your own business, it's not an easy thing to do. But you also ignore the fact that public outrage can also target small businesses and put them out of commission. The problem doesn't only affect individual employees but also small businesses. In the era of social-media outrage, not even small indie developers are safe from internet mobs.
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gunslikewhoa
Member
And I'm not okay with a world that chooses to punish me and mine for the actions of someone else. I am never going to agree that someone should be forced to suffer the consequences of someone else's actions simply because they happen to employ them.
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Mahadev
Member
Great, so for you only what's legal is acceptable, these are the boundaries you set on discussions? What's moral or just or rational doesn't matter, just laws that haven't been updated for hundreds of years to reflect today's society.
gunslikewhoa
Member
I'm definitely aware of the possibility.
MisterR
Member
I think if you make racist and sexist posts on a public forum, your company has no obligation to remain affiliated with you. Not so sure what's so hard for you to understand about that.
Vicetrailia
Banned
It's better to say what you have to say on reddit or neogaf than to fuck around with Twitter or Facebook. Lifehacks.
NickFire
Member
I feel bad for her, but am not sure we can say that is apples to applies with the guy who was doxxed by the same people who spent years claiming how bad doxxing is. She would have been a public official, and if the article is true she was caught before even finishing the academy for either lying of failing to disclose something. That does not sound like a targeted doxxing for political motives leading to a firing for wrong think (could be angry ex though). Also, I do not like the possibility that she may have been fired for participating in non-prostitution related bedroom behavior, but the article does not show she was. It sounds like she were fired for either lying or failing to disclose something expected to be disclosed. If that was the actual reason, she had to be fired. The justice system cannot function properly if the police are not truthful.
If her only transgression was being a dominatrix and not related to prostitution though, I completely disagree she should have been fired.
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Mahadev
Member
And I think witchhunts by moral crusaders who search your post history to find anything to destroy your life shouldn't be appeased by corporations. The guy seems like a dick tbh but the attack helicopter meme isn't mocking trans people it's mocking the pretentious morons who think sexuality is a fashion item and pretend to be dragonkins or neurogender or any of hundreds of "genders". You know who actually makes a mockery of trans people? These attention whoring clowns, I've even heard from acquaintances that they are disruptive to trans meetings with their bullshit.
I honestly don't have much empathy for the guy but I do have some very strong opinions on the witchhunt that started because of that meme (afaik) and the way it was deliberately pushed by the admins of the other forum. They should be ashamed of themselves, this shit is despicable.
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ilfait
Member
I'm not well versed in consensus libertarian views, but I imagine that the effect of online lynch mobs may run counter to this: "Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment."
While protecting employees' from rights infringements but at the same time stripping employers of their right to fire employees for any reason seems like it could cause a dilemna of principles based on that definition of libertarianism.
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NickFire
Member
What about instead of passing laws to take away anyone's rights, the non-radical people just repeatedly condemn the witch hunts and urge society to stop listening. As much as the doxxers detest me, they do still have free speech rights. And employers really should not be expected to employ people who moonlight in the Klan (as an example) if they don't want to.
Trying to legislate whose free speech rights are superior just doesn't sit well with me. I'd much rather see the middle of the road people reject the madness and stop cowering from being labeled an ist every time they call out the horrible behavior by the people with more media sympathy. Time to return to discourse without trying to hurt people for disagreement is all I want.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Can't both be true. This dude is terrible and the digging up of his post was also terrible?
Vicetrailia
Banned
It will, just because of all of the corporate shill reasons. If it gets out internally it'll do damage, and if it gets to customers it is going to fuck up your reputation. Our corporations won't allow that, it's risk management. If he's not invaluable then they won't take the hit. Integrity is also valuable.
Maybe the government can say that a corporation must make an honest attempt to correct this situation like offering this guy a diversity class or something. But if forced to keep him they will get rid of him another way. The internal SJWs will eat his flesh and sacrifice him to poseidon afterall.
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ilfait
Member
This is the ideal solution, as long as it would work. Employers would have to stick their neck out for employees and also give their employees the freedom to be human beings outside of work.
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Mahadev
Member
I said he seems like a dick but tbh I haven't read enough on the issue and I certainly can't trust media reporting on a matter like this because they are known to spread bullshit. And yes, even if he was a dick these geniuses have no right to stalk a person and trying to get them fired. Who the fuck do they think they are, the internet police? And given how unhinged they are who the fuck knows who they'll stalk next, this certainly sets a bad precedent.
If they wanted to do something for corporate shill reasons they wouldn't fire him. Their steam page has been flooded with negative reviews now whereas before the layoff there were none even though the witchhunt had been going on for a while. Really shows where actual gamers stand regarding free speech.
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ilfait
Member
The tendencies of video game press and some of the industry complicate this somewhat. It's not below the (low) standards of major gaming media sites to blackball future projects, limiting the visibility of the team's games. What the net outcome of retaining the guy vs. firing the guy would be is debatable.
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NickFire
Member
With respect to your last point, the writing has been on the wall for years. Its just been suppressed very well until more recent times.
Mahadev
Member
You make a very good point even though I still think that if they just didn't address the issue the moral crusaders would eventually move on to another target they could be outraged against. This did a lot of damage especially amongst hardcore gamers and these people don't forget as easily as mainstream gamers plus they're the ones mainly playing indie games and funding projects.
ilfait
Member
I think so too, especially in this instance.
Vicetrailia
Banned
This just means there are two sides to assign dollar amounts to, and/or consider the brand value.
Different companies will make different decisions as well. Companies need to find a way to make the best decisions themselves.
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KevinKeene
Banned
And there are people thinking that's just :/
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The world we live in also includes a guy that said terrible/stupid stuff that could be considered racist on the internet and didn't think his employer would care or find out. People that think it's okay to be a horrible person in public.
Petrae
Member
Yup. Again. HUNDREDS of people have been terminated due to postings made on social media that were brought to the attention of their employers, and it's all legal because they purposefully linked their social media accounts to their employers, causing damage to the employers' reputations and standing in the community at large.
Gilbert Gottfried's termination from AFLAC after posting jokes on social media about the tsunami in Japan is one of the most visible cases of this. He made jokes in poor taste, AFLAC does business in the country that he joked about, and they canned him— even though he's a comedian by trade. Maybe they were being "too sensitive", but they had the right to shitcan him and did it.
Social media is a very public thing. It's not like keeping a diary. Most people who have been fired due to social media posts don't even lock down or make their accounts private. They just post whatever they want, because they think they can without consequence (a la "free speech"/First Amendment). Once you post something for the whole world to see, even if you don't intend to make the whole world your audience, you run the risk of running afoul of at least some of them— and, depending on the severity of the comments, that can lead them to take action.
By now, people really need to start learning how to be more responsible within the sphere of social media. You never know who's going to read what you post, or how they're going to react to it. Think about how others might respond to what you're about to share; if there's even a small chance that you're gonna piss someone off, delete it and keep that thought to yourself.
It's not the best solution, and it might seem unfair, but the fact of the matter is that this is how the world works right now, and arguing that stuff like this should or shouldn't happen won't do much to help you out when you get fired for something you posted on Twitter a few days back. You're still getting fired, and in most states, good luck finding a lawyer who's gonna take on an ill-fated wrongful termination suit (unless you have the cash to pay him/her up front).
It's not like people broke into his house, found his journal, and then posted pictures of it online. He did this in a public space and he's facing the consequences of his actions
We also live in a world where people would rather stan for bigots and then denounce people who call them out on their bullshit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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It's not like people broke into his house, found his journal, and then posted pictures of it online. He did this in a public space and he's facing the consequences of his actions
We also live in a world where people would rather stan for bigots and then denounce people who call them out on their bullshit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Or maybe people have different opinions on what a bigot is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I guess the person that matters the most here would be does the company employing the person think the stuff said was bigoted.
Mahadev
Member
It's not like people broke into his house, found his journal, and then posted pictures of it online. He did this in a public space and he's facing the consequences of his actions
Except that, again, free speech isn't just a government right it's also a principle. I like how I used to listen to the exact same arguments in the 2000's by the religious right's moral crusaders and now it's liberals who use them, we've come a long way, they used to talk a lot about people doing whatever they want with their private property (meaning corporations), they had a real hard-on for that. And btw according to that comic and given the community's very negative reaction to the layoff does that mean that the studio is the asshole that should be censored and ruined? Who sets the standard here, the majority, a community full of unhinged people, random people on social media, clickbait media?
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They have a right to boycott their products if they find the decision was wrong just like the dev has a right to fire people who think damage their image.
Whoever is in charge of employment at the end of the day. This will obviously vary by company to company.
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Mahadev
Member
So if it's a conservative loon that fires you because you support abortion or because you said you don't believe in God you're A-OK with that.
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AquaticSquirrel
Member
I think in this case and similar cases it's not even about what the company/management thinks but rather how much bad PR it causes when the Twitter mob descends on their next victim. In a way they are the people that matter the most in the decision.
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decisions
Member
Yeah, and that's why this is problematic IMO. The higher-ups at the studio likely didn't have a problem with what he did (which is evident by the director of the game acknowledging his Tweets in the past), but simply fired him because of ERA and some other's dislike of what he said. I don't think that's right. The company taking a stance of "morality" would be one thing, but this doesn't even seem to be that. It's just the company conceding to the desires of leftists on the internet. I don't really get it. I thought most of what the guy said was shitty, but not even close to the point where I think he should be fired (especially considering his length of employment and supposed good performance on the game). How many people really thought he should be fired? And they got their way at the cost of this guy's livelihood. Just seems like an improper consequence to me.
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I mean, sure. It isn't legal to fire someone because they had an abortion so a wrongful termination case would be easy
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That company could have just acknowledged it and disagreed with it. And they could have suspended him. They didn't have to fire him. Blame the company for that. Not Reset ERA.
Isn't it legal in half the states in America to fire someone just because they are gay?
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no one said anything about having an abortion. But if you said you are pro choice and some internet mob of right wing nuts decided to bombard your employer until they fired you, it would be just like this instance.
No. its not. EEOC added orientation and gender identity in 2012 and 2015.
Mahadev
Member
So what's your point? Would you be OK with if it was legal? Because I sure as hell would not.
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Ah, I totally misread that, my bad
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Mahadev
Member
Nope, not your bad, I made a stupid typo before I edited and you were rightly confused.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That conservatives are already firing people for being gay and that it exist already.
Battlechili
Banned
I think websites like Twitter and Facebook are more like a public forum and should be treated as such. Not viewed as a website run by a private company viewable to the general public. They're too large and popular at this point.
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NickFire
Member
You brought up a really interesting topic about the possible lead impacts, but I can't possibly agree with you on this one. If someone takes the time from their life to publicly shame / threaten to shame a company for employing someone who said something dumb a couple years ago, they are 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions, especially when the consequences were intended. We don't get to wash our hands from something we worked to achieve by having someone else drive in the final nail.
Lionel Richie
Member
Personally I want to live in a world where we use the possibilities of living in the information age instead of having to be excessively careful because who knows someday we might post a joke that someone takes exception to and make us a fucking social pariah. "Siding with the bigots", which is an unreasonably preposterous and frankly kind of dense argument that I've seen repeated over and over and over again, means you want people to be free to say shit. They'll be wrong, they will make mistakes and maybe they will learn from it (if there is a lesson to be learned and in this Subnautica dev example there's really not). And regardless of how offensive it gets, that's always better than the alternative. Always.
I think i understand where people who are defending his right to say stupid shit, because firing people over what amounts to just ramblings in a bar or restaurant is a little too out there and unfair, but we live in a different world now where everything you say online is recorded like something out of 1984.
I do think that the people hounding him are awful, because they purposely sought to get him fired for something said years ago. I wouldn't call it a witch hunt, because he did say stupid things, but holy fuck at people being that vindictive. This isnt to say that what the dev said isn't bad, but the people who got him fired are still obsessive and malicious.
I do think that the people hounding him are awful, because they purposely sought to get him fired for something said years ago. I wouldn't call it a witch hunt, because he did say stupid things, but holy fuck at people being that vindictive. This isnt to say that what the dev said isn't bad, but the people who got him fired are still obsessive and malicious.
StrategyFan
Member
and now we've reached stage of the thread where people try to draw parallels between firing people for being born a certain way and firing people for their intentional behavior
being intolerant or racist or bigoted isn't a protected class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_discrimination_law_in_the_United_States
the laws basically exist to prevent discrimination, not to protect free speech rights
there was this whole thing called the civil rights movement. people died. people struggled. their cause was worthy of legislation.
somehow i doubt that a "march for the right to be an asshole without consequences" would gain as much traction, but you have the 1st amendment freedom to try and raise support for that kind of legislation too
being intolerant or racist or bigoted isn't a protected class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_discrimination_law_in_the_United_States
the laws basically exist to prevent discrimination, not to protect free speech rights
there was this whole thing called the civil rights movement. people died. people struggled. their cause was worthy of legislation.
somehow i doubt that a "march for the right to be an asshole without consequences" would gain as much traction, but you have the 1st amendment freedom to try and raise support for that kind of legislation too
The only person that mentioned any protected class that i can see brought up gay people being fired for being gay being legal, which I pointed out that the EEOC does say is discrimination and illegal. No one else was talking about any protected groups.
Rookje
Member
There's so many people who don't talk in a public space for fear of losing their jobs, their reputation, their friends, etc. Indeed, most of us on GAF talk about our opinions of seemingly trivial things such as games or pop culture, but we don't want our identities public for likely the same reasons as the Subnautica dev.
I think the bigger question is: would the world be a better place if they didn't have such fears, and did express their opinions publicly?
There was a lot of public shock at Trumps victory, and I think a lot of this stems from the silent majority who are fearful of voicing their opinions against the current political dogma. But if they did feel comfortable debating or discussing those things publicly, maybe real discourse could of happened and we could of avoided the situation we're in now.
I think the bigger question is: would the world be a better place if they didn't have such fears, and did express their opinions publicly?
There was a lot of public shock at Trumps victory, and I think a lot of this stems from the silent majority who are fearful of voicing their opinions against the current political dogma. But if they did feel comfortable debating or discussing those things publicly, maybe real discourse could of happened and we could of avoided the situation we're in now.
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