Support NeoGAF

[javac]

Like I was saying, when reviewing Angel's Egg, I realized something, that sometimes the feelings you get from watching a movie or show are sometimes more important than the fascination people can often have with trying to assign meanings to everything and anything, to the point that they often forget to just enjoy what's in front of them, diluting the whole thing into a Wikipedia article. Sometimes you should just hold on to those feelings that you can get in the heat of the moment, and savor them.

Stories have their prerogatives, meanings, messages and purposes however delving too deeply into that can sometimes be missing the point. Certain film are all about those feelings that they conjure up and holding onto them is important. Sometimes, instead of trying to figure out what a film is about, what it made you feel is just as important. Since then I've gone on to enjoy a lot more and have gained a level of appreciation for the visual medium that is anime on a level that I mightn't have otherwise been able to if I was fixated on the 1's and 0's. It can be liberating.

 

[Shergal]

Teach me, senpai. Why should anime not be judged on a similar scale to traditional cinematography?

I never made a statement about anime or film in general. I just said judging that short in particular in terms of its dialogue and narrative is futile. If you can't evaluate it for what it is, your criticism is weightless.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Teach me, senpai. Why should anime not be judged on a similar scale to traditional cinematography?

Nobody is saying that. It's a visual medium, of course you can easily compare it to a film...

 

[Admiral Woofington]

All I'm getting from this is that I'm keeping away from Angel's Egg.


Unless somebody wants to watch-bet it for Jin Roh the Wolf Brigade

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

All I'm getting from this is that I'm keeping away from Angel's Egg.


Unless somebody wants to watch-bet it for Jin Roh the Wolf Brigade

Why? Those are both Oshii movies, even... albeit one he wrote/scripted and the other he directed.

It's not like Jin-Roh was a super talkative movie either, and Angel's Egg is even more beautiful then Jin-Roh is.

 

[Narag]

Why? Those are both Oshii movies, even...

It's not like Jin-Roh was a super talkative movie either, and Angel's Egg is even more beautiful then Jin-Roh is.

Jin-Roh is Okiura.

 

[duckroll]

Jin-Roh is Okiura.

Can't wait for Okiura's Animator Expo short.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Jin-Roh is Okiura.

Yeah wrong wording, meant he was involved in both of them

 

[duckroll]

I never meant to even imply Wanwa is bad as my post was in response to another comment telling me that Baby Blue was the worst of Genius Party

How can that be when Limit Cycle exists....

 

[veloxStrix]

I never made a statement about anime or film in general. I just said judging that short in particular in terms of its dialogue and narrative is futile. If you can't evaluate it for what it is, your criticism is weightless.

It's a visual tour de force, and I don't use that term lightly. I would never even hesitate to make that statement. Knowing this, I can say that is an excellent short in its own right, but criticism, as a rule, is just a form of comparison. You have to compare Wanwa to something or you can't possibly critique it. In a vacuum, Wanwa's lack of narrative doesn't matter at all, but when comparing it to other greats of anime, or even some of the other Genius Party shorts, I find the narrative to be weak. That's all. I don't like to give ratings to things, but Wanwa would still be a 9/10 anime off its animation alone. Will it ever be a personal favorite though? Probably not.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Why? Those are both Oshii movies, even... albeit one he wrote/scripted and the other he directed.

It's not like Jin-Roh was a super talkative movie either, and Angel's Egg is even more beautiful then Jin-Roh is.

It's not like watch bets really have a theme to it. I just noticed people today saying they wanted to watch Jin Roh, which I love, and I'll submit myself to any anime movie if it makes somebody watch it,

It's not like mikkehatsu had a massive keikaku that was all according to it when he made phoenix watch bad shows

 

[wonzo]

bojack s2

this was all over the place but things really came together in the last two fantastic episodes and it never really reached the lows of s1 so this was def. an improvement.

probably shouldn't have watched the xmas special after herb's funeral…

 

[Narag]

bojack s2

this was all over the place but things really came together in the last two fantastic episodes and it never really reached the lows of s1 so this was def. an improvement.

probably shouldn't have watched the xmas special after herb's funeral…

I knew I forgot something.

 

[javac]

Screens I took from my BD but didn't use in my review because I wanted to focus on the writing, why not post them here:

 

[Admiral Woofington]

bojack s2

this was all over the place but things really came together in the last two fantastic episodes and it never really reached the lows of s1 so this was def. an improvement.

probably shouldn't have watched the xmas special after herb's funeral…

this episode right here hit me like a ton of bricks.

 

[Shergal]

It's a visual tour de force, and I don't use that term lightly. I would never even hesitate to make that statement. Knowing this, I can say that is an excellent short in its own right, but criticism, as a rule, is just a form of comparison. You have to compare Wanwa to something or you can't possibly critique it. In a vacuum, Wanwa's lack of narrative doesn't matter at all, but when comparing it to other greats of anime, or even some of the other Genius Party shorts, I find the narrative to be weak. That's all. I don't like to give ratings to things, but Wanwa would still be a 9/10 anime off its animation alone. Will it ever be a personal favorite though? Probably not.

What is the narrative? The mom is about to give birth and the kid is scared that something might happen to her. His imagination/dreams runs wild while this is happening. In the end, everything goes okay. The story goes through many tones and you can connect the emotional states of the kid to the stuff that happens in his dreamworld. I'm having a hard time finding the weakness here. It's simple and uncomplicated, but the little storytelling there is is done succintly and integrated into the flow of the short.

Using that checkbox approach you're implying in your post, then every other show has weak visuals because they're not even close to being on the same level as Wanwa. But that's not really how we judge animation in most anime is it? So you don't judge the narrative in Wanwa by comparing it to LOGH or Baby Blue either. It doesn't lead to any conclusion because they're going for different things (well, personally I never knew what Baby Blue was going for but that's a different story).

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

It's a visual tour de force, and I don't use that term lightly. I would never even hesitate to make that statement. Knowing this, I can say that is an excellent short in its own right, but criticism, as a rule, is just a form of comparison. You have to compare Wanwa to something or you can't possibly critique it. In a vacuum, Wanwa's lack of narrative doesn't matter at all, but when comparing it to other greats of anime, or even some of the other Genius Party shorts, I find the narrative to be weak. That's all. I don't like to give ratings to things, but Wanwa would still be a 9/10 anime off its animation alone. Will it ever be a personal favorite though? Probably not.

I think you need to base film criticism on what the film is trying to achieve, not what the film is not. Wanwa isn't trying to have a traditional narrative, so why should it be criticized for not having one? I mean, I can understand personal preference and all, and a film that's primarily about expressing an emotional/mental state isn't going to appeal to everyone. But that's not a failure of the film itself, simply a reflection that even the best art isn't going to affect everyone in the same way.

You don't throw out the standards of good filmmaking when you look at animation, but those standards aren't a simple checklist you can run down. For any work of art, you have to look at it holistically to determine if it's effective at communicating what it's trying to communicate.

Doorbell isn't particularly good, by the way. If you're curious, here are my thoughts on Genius Party and Genius Party Beyond.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I don't come around here anymore but I wanted to at least comment on how great the thread subtitle is.

 

[veloxStrix]

Using that checkbox approach you're implying in your post, then every other show has weak visuals because they're not even close to being on the same level as Wanwa. But that's not really how we judge animation in most anime is it? So you don't judge the narrative in Wanwa by comparing it to LOGH or Baby Blue either. It doesn't lead to any conclusion because they're going for different things (well, personally I never knew what Baby Blue was going for but that's a different story).

Baby Blue covers the same themes that are prevalent in almost all of Shinichiro's work - distance and mortality. Unlike Bebop or Champloo, where the narrative converges with

Spoiler

Spike's death and his acceptance of that or Mugen contemplating all that he had left undone

, Baby Blue reveals an all too human reaction to an all too human problem. Shou isn't dying, but he's leaving. He's moving away and for all intents and purposes he feels like he will be dead to the town he is leaving. The line, “When I’m gone, everyone will eventually forget about me. I don’t even remember much about my friend who moved long ago.” very bluntly reveals the subject matter. The positioning of objects between Shou and Hazuki along with the metaphor of the fireworks and grenade create strong symbolism both visually and mentally. Most importantly, the use of music implies that Shou's fears are unfounded as his story revolves around a serenade not a requiem. It's a song of remembrance, not loss.

In comparison, Wanwa just seems like a pretty moving picture. I won't argue that my expectations temper my enjoyment of it. Maybe since I'm relatively new to anime I can't appreciate animation for the sake of itself as much as I should.

I think you need to base film criticism on what the film is trying to achieve, not what the film is not. Wanwa isn't trying to have a traditional narrative, so why should it be criticized for not having one? I mean, I can understand personal preference and all, and a film that's primarily about expressing an emotional/mental state isn't going to appeal to everyone. But that's not a failure of the film itself, simply a reflection that even the best art isn't going to affect everyone in the same way.

You don't throw out the standards of good filmmaking when you look at animation, but those standards aren't a simple checklist you can run down. For any work of art, you have to look at it holistically to determine if it's effective at communicating what it's trying to communicate.

I agree. If I had just picked up Genius Party out of the blue, I might never have said a single negative about Wanwa. It's experimental, brash, self-indulgent, and an excellent demo of the genre in terms of animation. Shinya's expertise in the industry comes through in the constant barrage of complex animation while treading the very edge of having compositions that are too busy. The story is simplistic because the perspective is anchored to that of a child, so in that way I would never expect the complex dialogue of other anime. I mentioned earlier though that I was coming into Genius Party specifically to compare Wanwa to something else (that something else being Baby Blue), so my posts should be interpreted with that in mind.

The idea that I just use a checkbox, although hopefully not meant literally, is vaguely insulting so if I come off as prickly, do me the courtesy of understanding.

 

[UltraGunner]

1. NGE
2. FLCL
3. Macross Plus
4. Megazone 23
5. Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z-Hen

 

[JCG]

Looking at what I've rated the lowest, it's mostly random 80s/90s OVAs, most of which I can't even remember anything about, let alone muster any emotional reaction to. But there's one anime which can still stoke my wrath: the movie New Kimagure Orange Road: Summer's Beginning. The first Kimagure Orange Road movie, I Want to Return to That Day, is exceptional, resolving the central romantic triangle of the series in a realistically painful manner. The characters had begun to grow up. Then the new movie, released 8 years later, has the characters grown up in age but ironically less mature emotionally, the previous resolution taken back just so the main characters can meet up again and do dumb flirting with each other in the midst of a stupid time-travel plot that the film can barely bring itself to care about. A quintessential example of an unnecessary sequel that spoils everything I liked about the series. I don't think I've ever been more upset with an anime.

I guess the issue here is that the first KOR movie was great in terms of craftmanship but still too dark, bittersweet and arguably out of place compared to the general tone of the TV show, or even the original manga, while the second one was basically trying to give the audience at least a vague taste of the whimsical nonsense fun times of the TV series. Which is why they brought back the supernatural abilities into the picture after ignoring them in the previous film. Just with a worse art style and temporarily playing around with the love triangle again (though by the end it's still clear how that was resolved, so there's no permanent loss).The second film still tells a mostly unnecessary story, mind you, that doesn't really accomplish much outside of providing a very selective sense of nostalgia. That said, I'd argue the TV show already had reached a fitting conclusion even before the first movie came around to make things painfully explicit.

 

[TheRancor]

Can't wait for Okiura's Animator Expo short.

With Okiura's work pace? Maybe you'll have to!

 

[Quasar]

1. NGE
2. FLCL
3. Macross Plus
4. Megazone 23
5. Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z-Hen

Are we?

1. Eccentric Family
2. Spice and Wolf
3. Chihayafuru
4. Hyouka
5. Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun

I did that a while ago, but I guess I'd still agree. Or at least those are all high up on my favourites. I could easily swap in Natsume's Book of Friends for any of 'em.

Of yours, I haven't even seen any, aside from Macross Plus.

 

[Haly]

I'll going to write up a post for Rick-san to Morty-kun next week.

 

[dimb]

I'll going to write up a post for Rick-san to Morty-kun next week.

My write up: gr8 show.

 

[MikeHattsu]

Not including movies

Top 5:
1. Kanon (2006)
2. Clannad/After Story
3. Hidamari Sketch
4. Gurren Lagann
5. D-Frag!


Bottom 5:
1. Sola
2. Another
3. Recently, my sister is unusual
4. Pupa
5. Hanayamata

 

[TUSR]

Bottom 5:
3. Recently, my sister is unusual

liar

 

[MikeHattsu]

liar

Ok. Maybe it's better than Pupa... So in 4th ;P

 

[A Black Falcon]

MAL? A top 5 will just be my 5 favorites, because I've given well over 5 10's. Only TV animes or OVAs listed, not movies. That means no Miyazaki or Shinkai in the top-list; otherwise they'd pretty much make up the list, along with ABe (who is listed, since his stuff was on TV).

My issue with top-lists is, once I find things I like it's very hard for something new to displace it, even if it's good. So, my PC games top 10 basically reads like a list of my favorite games released between 1995 and 2005, and this list below isn't much different. Of course, on the other hand, it's not like anybody today is making TV animes like ABe's, so I think I'm justified in keeping those shows on top...

Top 5
--
5. The Vision of Escaflowne
4. .hack//Sign
3. Kino's Journey
2. Haibane Renmei
1. Serial Experiments Lain

Other shows I gave a 10: Texhnolyze, Azumanga Daioh, Noir, Excel Saga, Sora no Woto, Hi☆sCoool! SeHa Girls

Joke "10s" in my MAL -- that is, shows that are so bad they're great: Infinite Stratos (season 1), Garzey's Wing

I really, really miss ABe animes... Texhnolyze probably should be in the top 5, but it's just SO incredibly horribly depressing that I have to knock it down a bit, I don't like that feeling even if the show is amazing. Oh, and SeHa Girls deserves a very high score, darnit, it was funny, high-quality, and the last episode was amazing. Maybe it should actually be a 9. but meh, I said 10 and I'll stick to it.

Probably my favorites that I gave 9's to are: The Slayers (& sequels), Vampire Princess Miyu, Kanon [2002], Love Hina, Ranma 1/2, Bodacious Space Pirates, Saki (& sequels), To Heart, .hack//Quantum, Ghost in the Shell: SAC, and Angel Beats.


Bottom 5 (all scored 1 or 2 out of 10)
--
5. Ai Yori Aoshi
4. Maken-Ki!
3. Samurai X: Reflection
2. Oreimo (dropped after 1 episode but it deserves it anyway)
1. Angel Sanctuary

Dishonorable Mentions (all 2/10): Bakuen Campus Guardress, Devadasy, 10 Tokyo Warriors, C3, Chobits, Double-J, No Game No Life, Asobi no Iku Yo

Note that SAO is not included because I refuse to watch any episodes of that franchise. Otherwise it'd be near the top (bottom) of this worst-list for sure. Also, I had a hard time choosing between Ai Yori Aoshi and Maken-Ki, for which should rank lower; they're about equally terrible, 1 or 2 out of 10 shows which I really dislike (and yet finished season 1 of both of), but which is worse overall? I'm not sure...

I forget what a few of those 2/10 shows are; I don't remember 10 Tokyo Warriors or Devadasy, and all I remember about Guardress is that it was awful. And Asoki no Iku Yo is bad, bur probably not 2/10 material... maybe the same for C3 (CubexCursexCurious). But I didn't watch all that much of either one, so who knows. Some others are there because I hate the themes in them -- incest in several, most notably. Oh, Samurai X: Reflection is there because I think it ignores and pretty much tries to totally ruin basically the entire theme of the manga/original anime.

 

[Mandelbo]

I just want to say that Angel's Egg is very much worth a watch! It's one of the best looking anime films I've ever seen - javac has the proof!

 

[BGBW]

My MAL Top 5:

1. N/A
2. N/A
3. N/A
4. N/A
5. N/A

 

[blurr]

About that favorites list:

1. Haibane Renmei
2. Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya
3. Steins;Gate
4. Monogatari series
5. Shirobako

No.5 was Baccano earlier but I got around to watch Shirobako recently.

 

[UltraGunner]

1. Pilot Candidate
2. Ikki Tousen
3. Valvrave
4. Elfen Lied
5.

Spoiler

Your Favorite Anime

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Robot Girls Z+ 04

Finally someone stood up to these fucking bullies

 

[KenjiGlove]

1) K-on!!
2) NGE
3) Monogatari
4) Love Live
5) Ping Pong

Watamote, Diebuster, Tatami Galaxy and Non Non Boyori just miss out.

Also Madoka episode 1-8

 

[Hugstable]

Top 5

1) Madoka Magica
2) Gurren Lagann
3) Nozaki-kun
4) Monster
5) Baccano

Bottom 5

Everything Mike shows during the bad weeks, like fucking Eiken Club haha

 

[MikeHattsu]

Bottom 5

Everything Mike shows during the bad weeks, like fucking Eiken Club haha

The first episode of Eiken Club was funny though ;P

 

[phoenix296]

Worst anime:
Everything I watchbet with Mike. (Save Hidamari, that was decent)

 

[MikeHattsu]

Worst anime:
Everything I watchbet with Mike. (Save Hidamari, that was decent)

Pfft. I've not even showed you the worst yet!

 

[Mailbox]

So I started watching this show because I used the randomize function on crunchy.

At first I thought it was gonna be really bad, and was interested to know how bad it would be.

Then after the first couple of episodes, I thought that this show was just horribly derivative and just plain boring.


But I was wrong, plain wrong.

This is some of the worst anime I have ever watched period.

Nothing, not a damn thing, has any internal logical consistency at all.
-Character traits change randomly
-Genre flips on a dime
-the whole "they are the guns" thing is super inconstant and because of that nothing ever matters (which makes the melodrama moments mean fucking nothing at all)
-the gun explanation segments are shoved in horridly and was just straight up not needed.
- every time someone references something happening on a global scale (like the use of a gun in a country's military or something) I just wanted to scream because it causes everything above all at once!


AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE RANDOM FAN-SERVICE PARTS!
These are freakin "middle schoolers" and just in the most random parts the show give fanservice. This is basically just a adendum of extra hate with the "genre flipping on a dime" thing.



That and for some reason everytime i saw her face, I wanted to punch it:

On the plus side, It did have one piece of slapstick that worked and made me chuckle....
and every other piece of slapstick annoyed me or made me mad.

God.... this was just....



I swear, i have a problem with wanting to watch bad anime sometimes.

I need something good to clean my palate.
I should go through my backlog o halted anime...

 

[phoenix296]

Pfft. I've not even showed you the worst yet!

Your quest to destroy anime for me hasn't worked so far. Bring it! (Words to regret)

Upotte...

I understand all too well.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Upotte is the one with the elf girl right? With the flower in her hair?

I should watch that, I've seen some gifs

 

[Mailbox]

Upotte is the one with the elf girl right? With the flower in her hair?

I should watch that, I've seen some gifs

save yourself the punishment and don't.
Even if that elf girl had great reactions and is the most interesting character (not saying much there), her character flips in a slit second and becomes boring.

Just don't bother

 

[Hellwarden]

Wait a second...Sentai is giving Beyond the Boundary a dub...

...but they never dubbed Haikyu?

I say this fully aware that crap like Beyond the Boundary will sell better, but....

 

[Moaradin]

Haikyuu would probably get a terrible dub anyways

 

[Hellwarden]

Haikyuu would probably get a terrible dub anyways

This is true, but it still hurts.

At least Ping Pong the animation got a pretty strong dub from Funi.

 

[Mailbox]

Wait a second...Sentai is giving Beyond the Boundary a dub...

...but they never dubbed Haikyu?

I say this fully aware that crap like Beyond the Boundary will sell better, but....

They also did an upotte dub.
I have no idea what they use to figure out what warrants a dub or not, but it's fucked up

 

[Mandelbo]

I watched about five minutes of Upotte after I finished Sabagebu. It didn't really strike me as the kind of show that would have melodrama in it.

 

[phaze]

I imagine you could splice together FMA (original) and FMA Brotherhood in a way that all of it got told with enough room to breathe. But FMA:B is like 10 billion times better even if you had never seen the original and had to deal with them skipping through shit from the 2003 adaptation.

The problem is that the 2003 version started changing things very early to prepare for the eventual lift off from the manga material. As such, even if you try to jump into Brotherhood after a ~dozen episodes of 2003 you'll still be left with, some of them major, gaps and inconsistencies

Yami Shibai S2 1-13

The Resident Evil 5 to S1's Silent Hill 2.

Yikes.


Top 5 MAL list ? I don't have MAL. Also Top5 is way too hard. I can't even decide what the tenth spot in my top 10 is.

1. _______
2.Fate/Zero

I can't really rank the rest of them. They're all close, attempt to do different things. I watched FLCL and F/Z relatively early in my animu tour and I wonder if I would feel about them as strongly if I watched it today for the first time.

• FLCL
• Kyousougiga
• Diebuster
• Lain
• Madoka Magica
• Shigurui
• Mononoke
• Tatami Galaxy

 

[phoenix296]

Upotte is the one with the elf girl right? With the flower in her hair?

I should watch that, I've seen some gifs

Just watch ep5.