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[Dicktatorship]

Women seen wearing the full face veils in public can be fined up to $9,830 under a law approved by referendum in 2013 and by the regional Parliament this week. The ban includes tourists.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/622037/Switzerland-votes-burqa-ban-fine-Muslim-women

Lock if old.

 

[dakun]

i'm against the Burqa but banning it could lead to the men simply putting their women into some kind of house arrest since i doubt they'd just let them go out without it just because the law dictates it

While the Burqa is a clear symbol of the anti-women culture in some Muslim territories i'd rather look to help the women who are forced to wear it instead of further alienating them. And i know that's easier said then done.

I don't know whether banning it is good or not.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

I guess this is an attempt to get Muslims to leave without explicitly saying so. It seems a counterproductive measure to me, as it will only anger both already radicalized Muslims and moderates who could be pushed towards radicalization. I doubt bans like these cause anyone to stop being Muslim and happily, peaceably integrate into society as a whole.

 

[Stumpokapow]

A $10,000 fine certainly seems proportionate to the harm caused by someone covering their face.

And to the extent that the niqab is anti-woman, punishing the woman certainly seems like the right place to direct the anger.

...

 

[NoWayOut]

Good!

 

[DrArchon]

Holy shit, that's a hell of a fine, especially for a "crime" that isn't actively harming anyone.

I'm no fan of the idea of Burqas but if a woman chooses to wear one who am I to say that she shouldn't. As long as she isn't forced to wear one then it's alright by me.

 

[Divvy]

What good comes from making women choose between their country and their religion and family? This exists just to put women in a no-win scenario.

 

[Oberon]

i'm against the Burqa but banning it could lead to the men simply putting their women into some kind of house arrest since i doubt they'd just let them go out without it just because the law dictates it

While the Burqa is a clear symbol of the anti-women culture in some Muslim territories i'd rather look to help the women who are forced to wear it instead of further alienating them. And i know that's easier said then done.

I don't know whether banning it is good or not.

What about the women that choose to wear them ?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Other face coverings such as masks, balaclavas or crash helmets are still permitted.

Just in case you thought this was a heightened security measure not specifically targeting Muslims.

Good!

Bad.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

So basically, fuck your religion?!

what ever happened to choice?

 

[SkeptiMism]

Good!

How is it good? Seriously.

I understand people being against burkhas, but how do you think this is good? And before you reply, think about it a little please. Already some responses have given insight into why it's not good.

 

[Alucrid]

wow that's dumb

 

[Tertullian]

Freedom of religion is less and less a thing that liberalism actually values.

 

[Messofanego]

Just in case you need a refresher on what's what.

I don't know about anti women but yeah I'm not seeing a helping side to this. Then again Muslims are meant to abide by the laws of the land.

 

[Sai-kun]

Dumb as fuck.

 

[everyday math]

Well....uh holy shit. This is not the right way to go about this.

I'm totally against the of coverings up of a woman as a woman myself. But don't do this.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Just in case you thought this was a heightened security measure not specifically targeting Muslims.



Bad.

So you can cover your face for non religious reasons, or lets be direct, non muslim reasons.

Also, whats stopping those women to just wear a balaclava or mask?

 

[hodgy100]

what about the people that want to wear one?
what about the people that are forced to wear one, are they just kept indoors now?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

So you can cover your face for non religious reasons, or lets be direct, non muslim reasons.

Also, whats stopping those women to just wear a balaclava or mask?

Huh. Never thought about that.

Welp. Good time to invest in companies that wear make those I suppose

 

[Milksheikhs]

So basically if it's a choice it's like.."fuck your choice"

And if the woman is being forced to wear it..it's still "fuck you..here's this fine even though you're a victim in the situation"

 

[entremet]

How is it good? Seriously.

I understand people being against burkhas, but how do you think this is good? And before you reply, think about it a little please. Already some responses have given insight into why it's not good.

Some argue that it's a sign of patriarchal oppression and lacking of assimilating western values.

I'm firmly in the freedom of and from religion camp myself. As long as no one is breaking any laws, people should be able to practice their religion and people should be able to be free from religion as well.

But that's usually the argument, along with xenophobia and bigotry, which are not rational arguments.

 

[DragonSworne]

I guess this is an attempt to get Muslims to leave without explicitly saying so. It seems a counterproductive measure to me, as it will only anger both already radicalized Muslims and moderates who could be pushed towards radicalization. I doubt bans like these cause anyone to stop being Muslim and happily, peaceably integrate into society as a whole.

Not all Muslims follow this practice. Do moderate Muslims view the more extreme Muslims favorably? I don't think this would push them toward radicalization if they already have a negative opinion.

 

[Perfect Blue]

How many people even wear the Burqa in this region of Switzerland? At best this law just seems pointless.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Not all Muslims follow this practice.

It's still pointedly anti-Muslim and, to an extent, anti-Muslim women.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Freedom of religion is less and less a thing that liberalism actually values.

Unfortunately this is the cycle we're trapped in. Terrorism such as the recent Paris attacks causes fear, which causes citizens to lash out in these sorts of measures, which causes Muslims to become fearful and angry, which leads to more of them becoming more radicalized, which leads to terrorism, and so on. The human psyche being what is, it'd take some incredibly charismatic leaders who are both idealistic and perceptive to break this cycle. Unfortunately I don't see any leaders like that around.

 

[Moff]

make no mistake, this is purely motivated by xenophobia and racism. the rightwingers who made this happen claim they did this to protect the women, obviously the same people are against anything else that might help women but doesn't include racism.

I might also add the french millionaire Rachid Nekkaz said he will pay every single fine that comes from this, he did the same thing in France already and lived up to his promise.

 

[PSqueak]

But is fine applied for any other type of full face covering wear? Ski masks? Luchador masks? Would everyone on a fursuit at a furry convention get a fine too? Bandanas?

 

[Abounder]

The Ticino law was inspired by a similar French ban, which was upheld by the European Court of Human Rights in 2014.

Women can be fined up to £150 for wearing the burqa in France, which has the biggest Muslim population in western Europe.

Similar laws have since been passed in Belgium and the Netherlands.

In 2009, Swiss voters backed a ban on constructing new minarets

Welp

 

[DragonSworne]

make no mistake, this is purely motivated by xenophobia and racism. the rightwingers who made this happen claim they did this to protect the women, obviously the same people are against anything else that might help women but doesn't include racism.

I might also add the french millionaire Rachid Nekkaz said he will pay every single fine that comes from this, he did the same thing in France already and lived up to his promise.

This is specifically against Burqas, isn't it? Burqas are the most concealing outfit
and is often forced on women by the most extreme of the Muslim population.

It's an easy way to target the most extreme people of the religion.

 

[SkeptiMism]

Some argue that it's a sign of patriarchal oppression and lacking of assimilating western values.

I'm firmly in the freedom of and from religion camp myself. As long as no one is breaking any laws, people should be able to practice their religion and people should be able to be free from religion as well.

But that's usually the argument, along with xenophobia and bigotry, which are not rational arguments.

Yes but that's not an argument for why it would be good to force them not to wear it, i.e. my question to the person.

 

[Valhelm]

I don't like niqabs, but this is unethical.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Not all Muslims follow this practice. Do moderate Muslims view the more extreme Muslims favorably? I don't think this would push them toward radicalization if they already have a negative opinion.

I don't know what moderate Muslims think of the practice; that would be an interesting subject to research. But anything that hands ammunition to ISIS and other radical groups that they can use, especially with vulnerable youth, to say, "See? Europe hates Islam, Europe hates you, Europe will never accept you, your only option is to take up your sacred duty and blow up the system." - I don't see that as a positive.

 

[Hollycat]

Did they ban the other kinds of headwear? Because Shaylas and Hajib's can be super pretty.

 

[Anton Sugar]

This is specifically against Burqas, isn't it? Burqas are the most concealing outfit
and is often forced on women by the most extreme of the Muslim population.

It's an easy way to target the most extreme people of the religion.

That may be the intended goal, however misguided, but as a result, Muslim women from fundamentalist households are those that are punished. This doesn't help them at all. It's not like they're going to think, "Welp, this is illegal--guess we get to wear what we want now." More likely, they won't be able to go out in public, at all, or risk paying a ridiculous fine.

 

[Smiley90]

Just for reference:

A) This province is by far the most right-wing state in Switzerland. There are "traditional" states that are right-wing, this one is just plain "US/racist right-wing". They're also the only state with a fairly strong local ultra-right party. Switzerland has a long and vast history of federalism, leaving a lot of power up to states, so don't take this is a sign of Switzerland in all and itself (even though we've enacted some terrible policies by popular vote too)

B) This law is advertised and at least officially meant as an anti-"face cover" law, not specifically anti-muslim law. It bans all kind of facial obstructions, similar to how Italy bans facial obstructions in stores (and Ticino is the "Italian" province of Switzerland). The only exceptions to face-coverings are made for "traditional local customs" such as Fasnacht (think Halloween masks). The law ALSO covers masks for protestors and sport-hooligans - an issue that's becoming very widespread in Switzerland, we have HUGE protests every May 1st ("Day of Work"?) with people travelling from other countries to Switzerland just to destroy property. This law also targets them. The article says it DOESN'T because it's actually made into TWO SEPARATE LAWS. One against religious face-covers and one against political face-covers. This is done to make sure that "religious face-covers" aren't used in the same law as "protestors", because - guess what- people wearing face-covers are NOT protestors/hooligans. The fact that it's made into two separate law to accommodate for this is actually somewhat considerate.

C) The article is terrible. The Swiss did NOT overwhelmingly vote to ban it. That's like saying "USA OVERWHELMINGLY VOTES WALKER FOR PRESIDENT" when he's only elected governor. Nuh-uh.

Did they ban the other kinds of headwear? Because Shaylas and Hajib's can be super pretty.

Only Burqas and Niqabs

here's a Swiss official source, not a terrible UK one: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...n-Strafe-wegen-Burka-im-Tessin/story/27932334

 

[nelsonroyale]

I am not really a fan of the burqa, but I don't agree with this. What about dressing up as a ghost or in an animal suit? Is that also banned? Wearing dark glasses maybe?

 

[Stinkles]

As long as she isn't forced to wear one then it's alright by me.

Define forced? If you're brought up in an oppressive environment, you don't know any better, or worse, are afraid to reject it. The Burqa is not an "Islamic staple" (not that that's a meaningful idea) but a growing and arguably reactionary element of more pious or extreme Islam. It's not from the Quran, it's from angry and jealous old men. So I absolutely hate it. I don't respect it. I don't like it.


But the ban itself is ironically another form of oppression and projection, so I think it's a bad idea.

 

[Smiley90]

I am not really a fan of the burqa, but I don't agree with this. What about dressing up as a ghost or in an animal suit? Is that also banned? Wearing dark glasses maybe?

- dressing up as a ghost or in an animal suit is still allowed, but only on occasions where dressing up is legit. Think Halloween. This isn't much different from say, forcing people not to walk in public naked.

- nobody is banning sunglasses, holy hyperbole man

 

[Anton Sugar]

B) This law is advertised and at least officially meant as an anti-"face cover" law, not specifically anti-muslim law. It bans all kind of facial obstructions, similar to how Italy bans facial obstructions in stores (and Ticino is the "Italian" province of Switzerland). The only exceptions to face-coverings are made for "traditional local customs" such as Fasnacht (think Halloween masks). The law ALSO covers masks for protestors and sport-hooligans - an issue that's becoming very widespread in Switzerland, we have HUGE protests every May 1st ("Day of Work"?) with people travelling from other countries to Switzerland just to destroy property. This law also targets them. The article says it DOESN'T because it's actually made into TWO SEPARATE LAWS. One against religious face-covers and one against political face-covers. This is done to make sure that "religious face-covers" aren't used in the same law as "protestors", because - guess what- people wearing face-covers are NOT protestors/hooligans. The fact that it's made into two separate law to accommodate for this is actually somewhat considerate.

Interesting. Thanks for the context, especially when the article explicitly says stuff like this:

Other face coverings such as masks, balaclavas or crash helmets are still permitted.

However, it's pretty clear that this isn't just a security measure, which makes sense, given that its a very conservative region:

Giorgio Ghiringhelli, who drew up the proposal, said the result sent a message to "Islamist fundamentalists" in the country.

He added: "Those who want to integrate are welcome irrespective of their religion.

"But those who rebuff our values and aim to build a parallel society based on religious laws, and want to place it over our society, are not welcome."

 

[aeolist]

This isn't much different from say, forcing people not to walk in public naked.

please think for a second about why this is actually very very different

 

[Moff]

Ticino is very conservative, but we already banned minarets on a national level and with the current refugee crisis and terror in europe I don't doubt that this would have been accepted nationally as well. this is one of the drawbacks of the best democracy on the planet.

 

[Smiley90]

please think for a second about why this is actually very very different

I was referring to "wearing an animal suit or dressing up as a ghost in public" being banned outside of special occasions.

 

[DrFurbs]

Good I support this.

 

[stolin]

 

[Nesotenso]

Ticino is very conservative, but we already banned minarets on a national level and with the current refugee crisis and terror in europe I don't doubt that this would have been accepted nationally as well. this is one of the drawbacks of the best democracy on the planet.

how can anyone spin this with the 'oppressive logic'?

 

[metareferential]

I live in Ticino; and the law will prohibit anything that conceals one's face in public.

And it's perfectly reasonable. I can't go into a shopping mall keeping my helmet on.

That said, maybe it's not the right way to address such a topic.

 

[robertsan21]

Good, about time and hopefully more countries do this

 

[Anton Sugar]

I live in Ticino; and the law will prohibit anything that conceals one's face in public.

And it's perfectly reasonable. I can't go into a shopping mall keeping my helmet on.

That said, maybe it's not the right way to address such a topic.

Good, about time and hopefully more countries do this

Again, it's obvious this isn't just a "we want to be able to see everyone's faces" security measure:

Giorgio Ghiringhelli, who drew up the proposal, said the result sent a message to "Islamist fundamentalists" in the country.

He added: "Those who want to integrate are welcome irrespective of their religion.

"But those who rebuff our values and aim to build a parallel society based on religious laws, and want to place it over our society, are not welcome."

"Integrate or you're not welcome" is pure xenophobia.

 

[aeolist]

Good, about time and hopefully more countries do this

yeah, let's fine those women who are being oppressed!

 

[robertsan21]

yeah, let's fine those women who are being oppressed!

well it hurts the family more than just the women. Im guessing its the man that pays ?