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[Stereogatari]

It looks out of place in the western world. I dont see how anyone, ever, is going to integrate wearing that ....or get a job

It looks out of place in the Muslim World as well.

In fact if anything this kind of dress is tolerated more in Europe than in most Muslim majority countries. I haven't heard 1 Turk with positive words to say about the Burka.

Salafi/Wahhabist Paraphernalia.

 

[Fenderputty]

I'd be OK with this if it also gets rid of Hockey Masks, Full Face Ski Masks (aka Balaclava), etc.

Which... it does not.

.

 

[show me your skeleton]

Im for punishing the man obviously, not saying that the fine for a women is ok, but then again the fine will be paid by the man most probably, as he works and the women does not?

In the long run it will be good for all muslim women and their daughters that grow up in this open society.

not when the muslim community this affects becomes more and more insular due to very specific laws that target them.

 

[Suikoguy]

"Gemäss Regierungsbotschaft gilt dies in gleichem Masse für Sportfans, die sich vermummen oder Demonstrierende, die Helme tragen."

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...n-Strafe-wegen-Burka-im-Tessin/story/27932334


Seems like it does tbh, OP's source just is inaccurate.

If that is the case, seems OK with me.
Unidentifiable people walking around just seems like a bad idea.

While in a way it may seem like it's singling out a religion, there is no other religion that covers the entire face (Correct me if i'm wrong, and if such a religion exists it should fall under the same rules). At least in the United States, religious accommodation is given when it's reasonable. Walking around in public basically anonymous due to your religion is not reasonable accommodation. On the other hand, The Hijab and Chadow should be allowed. I'm undecided on the Niqab, I think it probably provides enough identification.

 

[victreeb3l]

It looks out of place in the Muslim World as well.

In fact if anything this kind of dress is tolerated more in Europe than in most Muslim majority countries. I haven't heard 1 Turk with positive words to say about the Burka.

Yeah. I think only two of my aunts ever wore a burqa and they started when they were in their 40s. And I have like a million aunts.

 

[Anton Sugar]

not when the muslim community this affects become more and more insular due to very specific laws that target them.

Exactly!

 

[Divvy]

Im for punishing the man obviously, not saying that the fine for a women is ok, but then again the fine will be paid by the man most probably, as he works and the women does not?

In the long run it will be good for all muslim women and their daughters that grow up in this open society.

Again, they won't be fined, they'll just force their women to stay at home. There are plenty of other, better ways achieving the open society you describe, this one is not one of them. It sounds good on paper, but makes no practical sense and only makes things worse.

Why not have an ad campaign with muslim women talking about how the coverings are oppressive and how much better it is to be free of them? Pair that with a hotline and support groups for women who are being forced to wear them, plus criminal charges against their husbands if they resist.

 

[aeolist]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

 

[Maintenance]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

Quite eye-opening for sure.

 

[Anton Sugar]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

"You're in Switzerland--speak Swiss!"

 

[DrGonzo615]

Countries banning religious practices isnt new. Mormons cant take on several wives and Rastafarians cant legally smoke weed in the US

Spoiler

depending on what state you are in

 

[aeolist]

Countries banning religious practices isnt new. Mormons cant take on several wives and Rastafarians cant legally smoke weed in the US

Spoiler

depending on what state you are in

there are ostensibly good reasons for those besides just banning religious practices

also it's legal for native americans to use substances like peyote in their religious ceremonies

 

[excelsiorlef]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

I'm bookmarking it because it's fascinating how this gets more support than laws on hate speech.

Despite the fact that only hate speech directly harms anyone.

 

[Alavard]

Countries banning religious practices isnt new. Mormons cant take on several wives and Rastafarians cant legally smoke weed in the US

Spoiler

depending on what state you are in

Not the same. That's taking an activity that is already illegal for anyone to do and saying that a religion doesn't get an exception.

This is taking something that is already legal, but basically only used by a certain minority, and banning it.

 

[Stereogatari]

Yeah. I think only two of my aunts ever wore a burqa and they started when they were in their 40s. And I have like a million aunts.

It's had a pan-Islamic dispersal that's for sure. I would guess that it has spread alongside Saudi idealogy. The bulk of Traditional Muslim majority dress is nothing like this.

Turkish dress:

I'm sure traditional Saudi/Gulf Arab dress wasn't as closed either.

 

[patapuf]

"You're in Switzerland--speak Swiss!"

I mean, i'm against banning religious symbols but if you live here long term, learn the language. We have 3 major languages to choose from and you get by with english as well.

Ticinesi especially often speak all 3 since they are smallest language region and they kind of have to for economical reasons.

Learning languages of other nationals is part of the culture here. It's expected of everyone to some degree.

 

[freeofgreed]

I'm bookmarking ut because it's fascinating how this gets more support than laws on hate speech.

Despite the fact that only hate speech directly harms anyone.

Same, I don't want anyone in this thread who thinks this ok to pop up the next time we have a discussion on hate speech laws or "censorship".

 

[Lovely Salsa]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

I want to see the person that claims this. I thought we all agreed that europe is more racist than US

 

[robertsan21]

Again, they won't be fined, they'll just force their women to stay at home. There are plenty of other, better ways achieving the open society you describe, this one is not one of them. It sounds good on paper, but makes no practical sense and only makes things worse.

Why not have an ad campaign with muslim women talking about how the coverings are oppressive and how much better it is to be free of them? Pair that with a hotline and support groups for women who are being forced to wear them, plus criminal charges against their husbands if they resist.

yes and spend more tax dollars from hard working population...hotlines and support groups aint cheap. if the muslim community is willing to pay for it I could see this as a good idea

 

[Anton Sugar]

yes and spend more tax dollars from hard working population...hotlines and support groups aint cheap. if the muslim community is willing to pay for it I could see this as a good idea

You're the one who is demanding they be integrated, dude. You think this won't require some effort and resources?

But maybe you're right. Maybe they set up a special Muslim tax that helps fund their own integration. That will really encourage to be a part of the rest of the country/society.

 

[Henkka]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

What is it with racism being a catch-all term for actual racism, xenophobia and islamophobia? They are different things, and I think it just dilutes the word by using it so broadly.

 

[metareferential]

As mentioned earlier, this seems to be an exception for the country:



How does a law that targets Muslims (specifically, Muslim women) defend your country ideals? You're putting words in my mouth. "Integrate or you're not welcome" is shitty and doesn't sound like a defense of ideals but rather an offensive move against another person's ideals.

Integration means that whatever ideals you might have, you still need to coexist peacefully.

It doesn't mean "come here and do as you please". That's what I'm talking about.

This law is a failed attempt at disguising an islamophobic issue as a security issue, I'm not debating that.

It's the idea that integration is a sort of wild card that lets anyone do anything "because of reasons" I can't stand.

 

[hipbabboom]

A $10,000 fine certainly seems proportionate to the harm caused by someone covering their face.

And to the extent that the niqab is anti-woman, punishing the woman certainly seems like the right place to direct the anger.

...

I think the fine intends to punish the women's owners.

 

[robertsan21]

You're the one who is demanding they be integrated, dude. You think this won't require some effort and resources?

But maybe you're right. Maybe they set up a special Muslim tax that helps fund their own integration. That will really encourage to be a part of the rest of the country/society.

Talking about the muslim community thats already in place in the country. They are demanding mosques to be built, special muslims schools which is in my opinion not showing that they are willing to adapt to our way of life. No wonder people are getting fed up and these horrible racist political parties are gaining momentum. It´s in their interest to get integrated not demand special treatment just because they believe in a fictional god.

 

[Divvy]

yes and spend more tax dollars from hard working population...hotlines and support groups aint cheap. if the muslim community is willing to pay for it I could see this as a good idea

If you think that this is a serious problem that needs addressing, then the small amount of money to properly address it would certainly be money well spent.

If you think this problem affects enough women, that it is worth taking away the rights of the women who participate voluntarily, then surely the action against it must be precise and effective.

If you only care superficially about it, and want the problem to go away in terms of visibility, but not actually help anyone, then sure, ban the niqabs and burqas I guess.

 

[freeofgreed]

What is it with racism being a catch-all term for actual racism, xenophobia and islamophobia? They are different things, and I think it just dilutes the word by using it so broadly.

No it doesn't. Xenophobia, and islamophobia are just as bad as racism. And how are those two terms not directly related to racism?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Integration means that whatever ideals you might have, you still need to coexist peacefully.

It doesn't mean "come here and do as you please". That's what I'm talking about.

This law is a failed attempt at disguising an islamophobic issue as a security issue, I'm not debating that.

It's the idea that integration is a sort of wild card that lets anyone do anything "because of reasons" I can't stand.

Again--my entire argument against integration is coming from the idea that integration is this:

Giorgio Ghiringhelli, who drew up the proposal, said the result sent a message to "Islamist fundamentalists" in the country.

He added: "Those who want to integrate are welcome irrespective of their religion.

"But those who rebuff our values and aim to build a parallel society based on religious laws, and want to place it over our society, are not welcome."

This law has nothing to do with the phantom issues Ghiringhelli is discussing. Wearing a burqa is not a rebuff or an upheaval of Swiss values, nor are they trying to institute religious law over Swiss law.

I agree, integration isn't a "well, it's their culture" free pass, but "burqa=oppression" is a misguided position to build this law upon.

Talking about the muslim community thats already in place in the country. They are demanding mosques to be built, special muslims schools which is in my opinion not showing that they are willing to adapt to our way of life. No wonder people are getting fed up and these horrible racist political parties are gaining momentum. It´s in their interest to get integrated not demand special treatment just because they believe in a fictional god.

Why is building mosques, or even having Muslim (private, I assume) schools a bad thing? Are there Catholic or otherwise Christian private schools in Switzerland?

 

[aeolist]

Talking about the muslim community thats already in place in the country. They are demanding mosques to be built, special muslims schools which is in my opinion not showing that they are willing to adapt to our way of life. No wonder people are getting fed up and these horrible racist political parties are gaining momentum. It´s in their interest to get integrated not demand special treatment just because they believe in a fictional god.

correct me if i'm wrong, are you blaming minorities for racism?

 

[CadetMahoney]

does france and china already ban the burga?

 

[Mentat]

Banning the burqa isn't only about opposing what it represents, it's also about enforcing a norm in society that when speaking to someone you can reasonably expect to be able to see the person's facial expressions. I don't think that expectation is xenophobic or oppressive.

 

[Anton Sugar]

correct me if i'm wrong, are you blaming minorities for racism?

That's what they get for wanting mosques and Muslim schools, I guess.

 

[Can Crusher]

Sorry but I support this, makes complete sense.

 

[massoluk]

If that is the case, seems OK with me.
Unidentifiable people walking around just seems like a bad idea.

While in a way it may seem like it's singling out a religion, there is no other religion that covers the entire face (Correct me if i'm wrong, and if such a religion exists it should fall under the same rules). At least in the United States, religious accommodation is given when it's reasonable. Walking around in public basically anonymous due to your religion is not reasonable accommodation. On the other hand, The Hijab and Chadow should be allowed. I'm undecided on the Niqab, I think it probably provides enough identification.

Speak for yourself, I always dream of becoming a real life Kamen Rider in Ticino Region of Switzerland.

 

[aeolist]

Banning the burqa isn't only about opposing what it represents, it's also about enforcing a norm in society that when speaking to someone you can reasonably expect to be able to see the person's facial expressions. I don't think that expectation is xenophobic or oppressive.

is switzerland also outlawing phone calls and intercoms?

 

[robertsan21]

Again--my entire argument against integration is coming from the idea that integration is this:


This law has nothing to do with the phantom issues Ghiringhelli is discussing. Wearing a burqa is not a rebuff or an upheaval of Swiss values, nor are they trying to institute religious law over Swiss law.

I agree, integration isn't a "well, it's their culture" free pass, but "burqa=oppression" is a misguided position to build this law upon.



Why is building mosques, or even having Muslim (private, I assume) schools a bad thing? Are there Catholic or otherwise Christian private schools in Switzerland?

If its us the tax payers that have to pay for these special schools then yes its a problem. Our schools are just fine, just look how well we our country turned out. It´s our country, so they do as we do. We have enough tax to pay. No special treatment due to religious beliefs is also something that should be implemented. And again, it also does NOT help them to integrate into our society if they are in a special school and do not get involved with the local population.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

i need to bookmark this thread for the next time someone claims that europe doesn't have problems with racism like american does

Just look at any refugee or Muslims in europe related thread and you will have to make a special bookmarks folder.

Some people in this thread also clearly mistake integration with assimilation.

 

[Arkeband]

Is a society where everyone's face is covered a less safe one?

 

[patapuf]

Talking about the muslim community thats already in place in the country. They are demanding mosques to be built, special muslims schools which is in my opinion not showing that they are willing to adapt to our way of life. No wonder people are getting fed up and these horrible racist political parties are gaining momentum. It´s in their interest to get integrated not demand special treatment just because they are muslims.

Mosques are not banned in switzerland, minarets are (and there were like 4 of them before the ban was put in place). As far as i know most mosques are not publicly funded or at least not beyond what the other non-christian religions are getting.

Special muslim schools are not a topic that is taken seriously.

While switzerland is politically slightly right of the middle, the Ticino region is particluarily right wing on immigration issues because it's pretty much the only region in switzerland that has suffered under the free trade (and immigration) laws with the EU .

Aditionally, since they are the smallest language region they have to adapt to the bigger two, they speak at least one, and often both other national languages pretty well and have to adapt and fight for recognition on a national level.

All this also feeds on expectations they have on immigrants.

I'm not happy about the law and i don't think it'll lead to anything good, but it's not exactly surprising they are particularily touchy on integration/immigration issues.

Why is building mosques, or even having Muslim (private, I assume) schools a bad thing? Are there Catholic or otherwise Christian private schools in Switzerland?

Religious dominated private schools aren't really a thing here. The few private schools we have are mostly for rich kids of foreigners and the remants of priest run schools in monasteries ect. all give a secular education.

 

[Divvy]

Anyone supporting this should read this article:

Burqa ban five years on - 'We created a monster'

"Those who have left to go and fight in Syria say that this law is one of things that encouraged them. They saw it as a law against Islam. It had the effect of sending a message that Islam was not welcome in France,” she says.

“People had the impression that the women wearing the veil were abused by men. But in ten years I have never met a woman who was forced to wear the veil by a man,” she says.

“People presented this cliché that Muslim women needed to be saved from men.”

De Féo says the 2010 ban has only helped to normalise and encourage Islamophobia in France.

“We now live in a society where people think it’s normal to insult Muslim women wearing the full veil just because they are disobeying the law,” she says, pointing to several unsavoury incidents in recent years including women being attacked and having their veils pulled off their faces.

Before 2010 there were considered to be only around 2,000 Muslim women wearing the veil in France, but according to De Féo the motivation for many women who wear the veil now has altered.

Many niqab wearers are young converts, single women and often divorced.

“Before the ban most Muslim women wore the veil for religious reasons,” she says. “Now a lot of the women who wear the niqab, started doing so after the law was introduced. They converted to Islam and began wearing the veil because it became an identity to them.

“For them it’s an act of resistance against the state, just like the punk or skinhead movements. That’s why they are happy to pay their €150 fines.”

 

[SkeptiMism]

Sorry but I support this, makes complete sense.

What do you think this will achieve?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Anyone supporting this should read this article:

Burqa ban five years on - 'We created a monster'

wellthereitis.gif

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Sorry but I support this, makes complete sense.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Anton Sugar]

If its us the tax payers that have to pay for these special schools then yes its a problem. Our schools are just fine, just look how well we our country turned out. It´s our country, so they do as we do. We have enough tax to pay. No special treatment due to religious beliefs is also something that should be implemented. And again, it also does NOT help them to integrate into our society if they are in a special school and do not get involved with the local population.

Religious dominated private schools aren't really a thing here. The few private schools we have are mostly for rich kids of foreigners and the remants of priest run schools in monasteries ect. all give a secular education.

Just to be clear, so I know I'm actually discussing reality (i'm not from Switzerland, obviously): it sounds like there is a push from the Muslim community to have the Swiss or local government pay for their mosques and religious schools? Is that true or not?

 

[Can Crusher]

What do you think this will achieve?

No more burcas.

Care to elaborate?

It's a symbol of oppression, made up by men that choose to interpret that text as they see fit.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Other face coverings such as masks, balaclavas or crash helmets are still permitted.

So, in theory, Muslim women could wear a standard headscarf and just wear a mask or balaclava?

Weird law.

 

[andythinkpad]

Anyone supporting this should read this article:

Burqa ban five years on - 'We created a monster'

That's just one opinion piece. Maybe when all of volunteer Daesh/ISIS die off, the Burqa ban will archive its objective, 20 years later?

 

[robertsan21]

Anyone supporting this should read this article:

Burqa ban five years on - 'We created a monster'

wow, thats just horrible. I think racism against islam is going to grow a lot over the coming years, and rightly so when it seems that so many of em have this view. Scary times for us who accepted a large part of refugees.

 

[aeolist]

wow, thats just horrible. I think racism against islam is going to grow a lot over the coming years, and rightly so when it seems that so many of em have this view. Scary times for us who accepted a large part of refugees.

this is the worst possible takeaway from that article

 

[robertsan21]

Just to be clear, so I know I'm actually discussing reality (i'm not from Switzerland, obviously): it sounds like there is a push from the Muslim community to have the Swiss or local government pay for their mosques and religious schools? Is that true or not?

Mind you that I am talking about my country here, Sweden. NOT Switzerland. sorry about taht, should have made it clear. Dont know how it is in Switzerland.

 

[Divvy]

That's just one opinion piece. Maybe when all of volunteer Daesh/ISIS die off, the Burqa ban will archive its objective, 20 years later?

It's citing a sociology professor who has been studying the situation there. I don't think there's reason to question the validity just because it's labelled an opinion piece.