I believe they are referring to more secular societies where the liberty religious expression is allowed.
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Switzerland: Ticino Region Approves Ban on Wearing Burqas in Public
- Thread starter Dicktatorship
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I believe they are referring to more secular societies where the liberty religious expression is allowed.
Pretty much. If you think that someone is being coerced or otherwise manipulated into doing an (otherwise harmless) activity or expressing themselves in a certain way the correct approach is to give them the tools they need to escape from situation or make an informed decision. Forcing them to change is not the answer.
Burqas are at most a symptom of oppression. Yeah, we should work to eradicate that oppression, but banning burqas will not achieve that, at all, you'll mostly antagonize the people you're trying to help and along the way create a rather terrible precedent that the government can tell you what you're allowed to wear.
It's a terrible policy.
It's a terrible policy.
Yeah but Mr Giggles spoke of women in other countries thus opening the door to this.
Mr. Giggles
Member
I won't deny that in extremist countries like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan it's not a choice. But there are lots of Muslim countries where it is like: Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, U.A.E, Oman, Bosnia and I'm sure I'm missing some but there are plenty of examples
But those extremist countries don't represent all Muslim countries or the views of all Muslims
And how would banning burqas fix that kind of patriarchy? WIll banning the burqa eliminate misogyny and abuse within that household? Or will it just hide it so you don't have to see it? Is this ban to make you feel better or for that woman?
You're wrong.
Christopher
Member
No it shouldn't this is 2015
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Maybe it's because I live in Indonesia where many women wear Hijabs and even Burqas (not too many though, mostly Hijabs) out of their own volition--hell, it's even viewed as something that is to be proud of and people sure respect the decision by the women to wear them--it's always amusing to see people talking about "rescuing" or "liberating" the women or how they are "brainwashed" into wearing them as if these women are always brain-dead robots who can't move a feet forward without anyone else telling them how and can't make a decision on themselves whether they like to wear a piece of clothing or not.
It's not that I don't realize the existence of the truly hardcore adherents, but the jarring discrepancy between many healthy, happy, beautiful, independent women wearing hijabs in here that I know--hell, many of them are more successful than many men I know in life and business--and the narrative that they are just drones that are doing what they're doing because they are being unthinking drones being "forced" to do it and that they must be "rescued" or "liberated" at all cost is sometimes just really... weird.
It's not that I don't realize the existence of the truly hardcore adherents, but the jarring discrepancy between many healthy, happy, beautiful, independent women wearing hijabs in here that I know--hell, many of them are more successful than many men I know in life and business--and the narrative that they are just drones that are doing what they're doing because they are being unthinking drones being "forced" to do it and that they must be "rescued" or "liberated" at all cost is sometimes just really... weird.
Mr. Giggles
Member
What? No of course not
Edit:
Oh wait, that was a rhetorical question. Never mind, this thread is crazy
ugh_the_boot
Banned
Great first post. I would still prefer to see it banned though because (in australia anyways) no one else is allowed to walk around (especially in banks etc) with their face covered.
Hasidic Jewish women are banned from showing any hair (some are forced to shave their head) wearing pants and other delightful things.
I'm not saying every person who want to ban burqas is an islamophobe, but I think without islamophobia those things would've got no real traction.
Before its ever a choice they make, it's a choice others made for them.
Have you ever heard the saying "Get thee to a nunnery?" Girls were sent off against their own volition. Nuns are also seriously oppressed.
Mr. Giggles
Member
I agree with you here.
I haven't but show me the western countries that are passing laws that specifically fine nuns for walking about in their religious garb in public, I honesty don't mean to be snarky, I'm legitimately asking if a nun would be fined 150 euros for her clothing
Look, all im saying is that if you're really trying to free these women from oppression is applying a new level oppression the right way?
So far the replies here lean more on plain bigotry than any legitimate intent to resolve oppression
I see people saying Muslims should respect Western values. Considering the invasions/bombing of countries for democracy, the creation of a Western colony in the Middle East, the division of the natives into countries as the Western powers see fit, and the support for dictatorships, it is amusing that Westerners can't take a woman going down the street wearing non-Western clothing minding her own business.
Can you imagine how Westerners would react if Muslims blatantly shove their values down Westerners throats the way Westerners have done to Muslims and the rest of the world for that matter?
Can you imagine how Westerners would react if Muslims blatantly shove their values down Westerners throats the way Westerners have done to Muslims and the rest of the world for that matter?
I agree, I don't think the fine is the right way to go about it. I honestly don't know what the "solution" would be if there even is one.
Justifying society's standards based on another society's standards sounds like a weak society.
Covering your face in public is fine. But you need to remove your mask/helmet/morph suit/whatever in a secure area like a bank or if a police officer asks you. I don't have a problem with that but I also don't understand the need to extend that to a blanket ban. I also doubt that Australians would ever support an actual holistic ban of face coverings because we'd have to actually think it through and we'd soon realise that people of all walks of life cover their faces in public at some time or another. Hell last weekend a bunch of Reclaim Australia protestors were wearing masks and one of their stated aims is to ban the burqa.
Okay, since WHEN is Bosnia seen as an "Muslim country"?
It is something that 90% of citizens in Bosnia would reject to say or condone.
Just to clarify: this was decided by popular vote back in 2013. What happened this month was approving the bill/law that results from this vote.
This wasn't just a bunch of old men deciding.
Posts such as this should be banned, you add nothing to the discussion. I have trouble with this because I can't stand religion and it's effects on society but this will cause nothing but more hatred.
Even though some claim these bans are what prompt people to join ISIS, well, I say you were fucked in the head regardless of the ban.
Yeah, the same popular vote that banned minaretts a few years back.
Isn't it absolutely disgusting telling women that they can't wear something no matter if they want to or not? You just decided for them that they are opressed, brainwashed and don't want to wear it.
Plus, as some people stated, he effects in Ftance show that this is a terrible idea. It drives women out and/or radicalise them by pushing them out of society, telling that they are not welcome.
Swiss (or any other European) police still won't shot anybody for wearing Burqa.
I'm not defending the result, I just wanted to point out that this wasn't just some old guys in the parliaments deciding things, it's the majority of the ticinesi population that doesn't want the burka to be worn.
Also i'd hesitate to draw too many paralels to France. There's a lot of factors at play there that simply aren't present in Switzerland, the radicalisation of their muslim population isn't a result of the Burka ban. Like it's ban in Ticino, that's just a symbol people point towards (though symbols are important of course). It definitly won't help the integration so many people clamor for, though.
I think banning burqa is useless. But I understand why is this happening. It doesn't have to do with the liberation of oppressed women.
Burqa is practically perceived as a symbol of the most radicalized part of Islam. It comes in the same package with sharia law. It doesn't matter if it is voluntarily or forced, it is still the symbol of a radicalization. That's why people are against it.
Burqa is practically perceived as a symbol of the most radicalized part of Islam. It comes in the same package with sharia law. It doesn't matter if it is voluntarily or forced, it is still the symbol of a radicalization. That's why people are against it.
TheKingOfPain
Member
Canton Ticino, where else? And they wonder why we "circumnavigate" Switzerland when heading north.
Turin Turambar
Member
Just in case you need a refresher on what's what.
I don't know about anti women but yeah I'm not seeing a helping side to this. Then again Muslims are meant to abide by the laws of the land.
Are there women wearing Burqas in Switzerland in the first place?
I live in Spain where there has to be a bigger Muslim population than in Switzerland and I only ever seen the Hijab and the Chador.
Machspeed007
Member
How about Saudi Arabia banning alcohol?
Do you blame the Saudis for implementing such a law or it's their country, they do how they please?
Messofanego
Banned
It might have just been four or five but in such a conservative place they probably just freaked out!
France has ~4x Muslim population (4.7 million) of Spain (980K) and even that amounted to less than 2000 Burqa wearers.
Kenshin001
Member
Exactly. Wearing a burqa by choice is tantamount to flying the Confederate flag. I really don't think any woman wearing a burqa by choice is going to be supportive of liberal democratic Western values, in fact the opposite, they are more than likely a supporter of violent radical Islam. There are plenty of women who willingly wear the burqa in the Islamic State.
Christopher
Member
An education piece to me as in googling things and may be wrong, however why would a book dictate that women have to wear this? It seems extremely oppressive...
Messofanego
Banned
What book dictates? Think the Bible does.
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head."
1 Corrinthians 11:3-6
Whether the woman chooses to wear the burqa is irrelevant. It's not really about protecting women's rights, it's not about security.
The message here is that Islam extremism will not be tolerated. It's about visibly restricting the liberties of those radicalized people. And yes having a woman wearing the burqa is a sign of radicalism.
Switzerland (and France) politicians don't give a shit about the American version of free speech or freedom, they care about winning election, since a large majority of the voters is for such laws, and sending the signal that this small fringe of the Muslim population is not welcome in their country.
The message here is that Islam extremism will not be tolerated. It's about visibly restricting the liberties of those radicalized people. And yes having a woman wearing the burqa is a sign of radicalism.
Switzerland (and France) politicians don't give a shit about the American version of free speech or freedom, they care about winning election, since a large majority of the voters is for such laws, and sending the signal that this small fringe of the Muslim population is not welcome in their country.
Mr. Giggles
Member
I was thinking about the Muslim population there, like Lebanon - should have said that instead of Muslim country and Bosnian Muslims aren't so extremist that removing their heard scarfs would result in a death sentence
I blame the Saudis, they ban alcohol because they themselves don't drink the stuff out of religious beliefs . They have a minority of westerners and it shouldn't be illegal for them or anyone who doesn't identify with Islam to drink alcohol.
Saudi Arabia is backwards as fuck, and I say this as a Muslim, you couldn't pay me to live there EVER.
His Majesty
Banned
afaik Belgium, The Netherlands and France have a similar law that prohibits the wearing of a burqa. It's the most visible symbol of islam fundamentalism and women who wear one could never hope to integrate into western society.
There are two huge problems with this.
First: In Switzerland women can also vote
Second: Both this ban and the minaret ban were won in Switzerland because women voted more for the bans than man. They did very detailed analysis about voting in those cases in both time, the women in Switzerland supported this, especially feminist groups.
I would not ban a burka and I also was against the ban of minarets. But there is a level, what Bill Maher calls stupid ideas, which are just not compatible with our society. I am very left, but even for me, it is, if you want to life here, you will have to accept our values or get out.
The apprentice of my barber 16 year old happy, nice girl someday just did not show up for work anymore. Parents told him, well she got sick and died. Few weeks later police showed up, asked him a few questions and he found out she killed herself, because her parents wanted her to marry somebody against her own will. If you try that now in Switzerland you will get thrown out, the daughter can stay, we will offer her refuge, but her father and sometimes also the mother will leave. I know cases like this and at some point our values are more important than the values of other cultures, especially if you want to stay in our country.
At a certain point you do have to integrate. So you will have to accept, that your daughter will make her own decisions and she has the same rights as you. That your wife can work and vote and even leave you, if you she thinks it is the right thing to do. If you can not accept that, you still want to be the master of your house, well maybe Switzerland is the wrong place for you. There is no middle ground on this issue. If you want to stay in Switzerland you will have to accept that, even people walking around in Bikinis in the summer or other things you don’t like. And that’s not our fault and we also are not going to change that, so at this point, there is no alternative, either accept it or well search a country more in line with your values.
And I am also against the idea, that we have to accept every stupid idea from any culture. If we think, that a stupid idea is against our culture, like covering your whole face and we want to outlaw that, it is our right to do so.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Fair points and I agree with the integration aspects. Although I think if you're living in a democracy there needs to be some discussion on how to speed up integration as opposed to forcing it upon individuals.
I don't agree with the burqa but I think if you want to reduce its presence a more nuanced tactic should be adopted. Banning it because it doesn't fit in is a knee jerk reaction and quiet frankly xenophobic which could only embolden women to adopt it further - it's the type of reaction I would expect from extremist countries like Saudi Arabia, they ban a ton of shit but it hasn't stopped the people from engaging in those activities
Showing women that they have a choice allows the prospect of critical thinking and self reflection to blossom. it also is a start to implanting the seeds of democracy in to a culture that is used to dictatorship style governing
Nope you're wrong.
"you're not welcome (whatever you do)" is pure xenophobia.
"integrate (to varying degrees) or you're not welcome " is pretty much the model of immigration in the western world and everywhere else.
YOu are not wrong but reaching women that often don't work and are otherwise also isolated by their families ( an thus afraid to interact iwth others in the first place) is very challenging.
Mr. Giggles
Member
oh yea, it's quiet challenging, as another poster said who knows what the true solution is but as evidence in France has shown bans have little to no effect.
I have lots of faith in European countries though, I've always seen them as the most forward and progressive thinking people and I'm sure they'll find a way to deal with the current immigration/integration issues - fear has found its way into their minds but I trust them to see their way through
I don't get the hate towards Burqas.
Everybody in this world are influenced by their culture and are oppressed in some ways.
some women in the west have argued why men are allowed to go topless. The entire world can be criticized for hypocrisy. I know its on a entirely different level but still its hypocrisy.
Everybody in this world are influenced by their culture and are oppressed in some ways.
some women in the west have argued why men are allowed to go topless. The entire world can be criticized for hypocrisy. I know its on a entirely different level but still its hypocrisy.
Banning the Burqa is a good thing! It's a symbol of oppression and radical islam, it has no place in a secular society and it should not be tolerated.
And about those women who won't be able to leave the house without a burqa? They usually can if they want to! If they want to but can't because of their husbands abusive behavior that's a problem but the solution cannot be to allow the use of the burqa, that in itself is abuse if the women wears it against her will.
If a woman wants to wear a burqa she's free to live somewhere else, no one's stopping them from leaving.
And about those women who won't be able to leave the house without a burqa? They usually can if they want to! If they want to but can't because of their husbands abusive behavior that's a problem but the solution cannot be to allow the use of the burqa, that in itself is abuse if the women wears it against her will.
If a woman wants to wear a burqa she's free to live somewhere else, no one's stopping them from leaving.
Paracelsus
Member
Sheer ignorance causing a false equivalence, nothing more than that. It's the same as comparing a topless woman to a man exposing his genitalia.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
oh well guess those are out of the picture now.
Ah, there it is. The core of the banning and the appeal to the right wing.
Who the fuck spoke of all muslims. Not all muslims women wear burqas all the time in public.
It is a worrying symptom of oppression, and while it should not be banned, it is disgusting to just brush it off as "oh it's just a choice".
I agree. Just banning isn't helping anyone. Education and easily accessible and free help for women with abusive husbands are the way to go. But apparently quite some here are in favour of solving the problem by putting it somewhere we can't see it.
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