-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Switzerland: Ticino Region Approves Ban on Wearing Burqas in Public
- Thread starter Dicktatorship
- Start date
- Status
No, i'm sure there's a few Imams that do but it's not a political topic.
Mr. Giggles
Member
They have this view because a law exists that discriminates against them in the first place.
Not the other way around
SkeptiMism
Member
Do you actually think they will stop wearing them because of this?
Can Crusher
Banned
Their choice.
everyday math
Banned
That's not...yeah ok enough internet for me today.
Mr. Giggles
Member
A symbol of oppression? Many choose to wear it themselves.
You're just regurgitating xenophobic points, I would suggest you actually talk to women who wear this to see their view points.
Forcing someone to dress the way YOU see fit is exactly the definition of oppression
why do you think the government of switzerland telling them they can't wear a burqa is any better than their husband telling them they must?
Can Crusher
Banned
So your argument is that people educated to accept it aren't all against it? I can accept that.
Also this law isn't about having to dress, but about being illegal to dress a certain thing. Your argument can be boiled down to the point that any law is a form of oppression.
Yeah I don't know if burqa bans are the way to go but...
If the government banning a piece of headgear encourages you to join a mass-murdering death cult, you have other issues than government oppression.
SkeptiMism
Member
Ok. Here's a scenario of what is likely to happen: they will feel that is xenophobic and oppressive and that they must use burqa as their belief says says so. Now, they can't go outside (they'd be violating their beliefs), so they will stay home.
Great! Now you just drove them home and they will not have even the smallest chance to integrate. You also cause more radicalisation (statistically speaking) because it is mostly xenophobia and the muslims will be segregated more.
Now, what do you think this serves exactly? Wouldn't you think education and showing western values of freedom were better, than trying to stop perceived oppression by more oppressing?
laws should have a point beyond arbitrarily forbidding something to a specific group
The Reloader
Member
When I was 7 I saw a group of women wearing burqas in a mall and thought they were part of the Ku Klux Klan.
Can Crusher
Banned
This is the maddening part about the issue. Somehow the western country must accept all the baggage and provide all the resources for smooth re-education. Like the west has to make a case for western values on western turf.
I believe that if you go to a different culture you should make an effort to integrate. Don't want to, go home.
Mr. Giggles
Member
But why is it illegal in the first place? For safety? For security? Has there been a string of robberies where the criminals were wearing burqas? Have there been gang wars where the people involved have all been wearing burqas?
It targets a religious minority purely for the fact that they choose to be part of that religion nothing more
It's illegal because its "oppressive" is oxy moron incarnate
freeofgreed
Member
No they don't. The western country doesn't have to do anything. If they want to force people not to wear Burqa's then they should put the effort to do it properly. If not they should just stop bitching about it. How does someone else wearing a burqa affect you in anyway? Funny how you guys are always going on about freedom and liberty till it involves muslims then suddenly you guys are ok with the government intervening in your personally lives.
Can Crusher
Banned
This is about burqas and what they represent, not about muslims. Don't even try.
Holy shit.
Thats a viewpoint that you don't expect people to just come out and express in a place like this.
I guess there really is an exception to every rule. I always grew up thinking that all racism was bad. But I guess now we found the one good kind and should all embrace it.
freeofgreed
Member
And how are the two separate? Your entire argument is based on the flawed argument that all women who wear Burqas are being forced to by their husband. There are plenty of women who Burqas of their own free will. I don't doubt that some of them do get forced to wear it, but I don't see how banning them will fix the fact that they're living with an asshole husband. Also why are you not ok with Husbands forcing women to wear Burqas but ok with the government forcing women not to wear them?
andythinkpad
Member
How is it different from making bare naked illegal? There are plenty of tribes people wear near to nothing in their own day to day lives. How come you can't do it in major cities?
Kill Your Masters
Member
But a burqa is basically a face covering mask. What if they start wearing balaclavas and sun glasses tomorrow. Ban those? Where do we draw the line?
I am definitely no fan of burqas, but I don't see this as an effective solution at all.
Hm. I'm conflicted on this issue. On one hand people should be free to wear what they want obviously, but on the other hand, the whole institution of the burqa and the niqab is one of the most blatant and ridiculous displays of patriarchal dominance in our modern time.
Sure, there's plenty of women who claim to like it. But all throughout history, there have been plenty of women speaking out in favor of male dominance and oppression.
But on the other hand, do we have any real evidence that banning the burqa actually leads to less oppression of women? Or does it just hide the problem?
Sure, there's plenty of women who claim to like it. But all throughout history, there have been plenty of women speaking out in favor of male dominance and oppression.
But on the other hand, do we have any real evidence that banning the burqa actually leads to less oppression of women? Or does it just hide the problem?
freeofgreed
Member
Not surprised. When it comes to issues like this people show their true colors. They act like they care about women and liberty but they really just want to use situations like this to vent their racism.
Western society basically requires being able to verify someone's identity by facial recognition, though. Without the religious exemption, people concealing their identities are always suspicious. No one wears balaclavas except people snowblowing their own property and suspects in robberies.
This is the point most argued on this topic. Is the burqa really a choice when religion uses fear and intimidation to follow a very strict set of rules? Even if it somehow passes that test and is a choice despite the consequences of not wearing it, is it oppression to forbid a practice viewed by a host culture as oppression?
Mr. Giggles
Member
Of course you can do it major cities, I mean you have
1) Strip clubs - were you can perform if you have the good or just watch
2) Nude beaches
Basically places where if you WANT to be a nudist, you can and its allowed by the law and you are protected.
I have to run to a meeting, but to address the bolded bits specifically, I would say yes because instead of addressing the root of oppression you're just adding a new layer to it
Well, there you go
freeofgreed
Member
It's actually legal to go topless in NYC as well.
I just found it humorous that he said it was justified racism.
He even knew it was racist but it was ok in this case because fuck those people.
At least he is honest.
Quad riding, hunting, sledding, (especially local) sporting events, hiking, Boy Scout activities, pond skating/hockey, biking. Balaclavas aren't uncommon with pretty much any outdoor winter activity though recently you're more likely to see someon with either a scarf and hat (where the scarf covers the nose and mouth) or a mask and hat
Maybe city life is different but people don't look twice if all you can see is the eyes out here. (Though I can understand the concern in a school or bank or other places like that)
Poodlestrike
Banned
I think both suck, am I allowed to pop up in the next thread...?
freeofgreed
Member
Stereogatari
Banned
I wish people would stop saying "it doesn't fit here" and "it doesn't fit in a Western society". These kinds of Wahabbi/Salafi dresses are strange in most of the Muslim World as well.
Messofanego
Banned
uhh wut
Yeah! It's about what they represent! Let's ban 'em so instead of being oppressed and outside, they'll be oppressed and inside! But at least we won a moral victory! Time to give ourselves a pat on the back!
Fury Sense
Member
All muslim women should wear bikinis in the summer and yoga pants in the winter like the women in countries of true freedom. Our women get to be proud of their femininity, why can't theirs? It's horrible that men expect women in the year 2015 to oppress and discriminate against themselves with such outfits! Finally, modern muslims will have a safe place to be themselves in Switzerland, the land of welcoming and tolerance.
Anton Sugar
Member
It's particularly funny because the article itself doesn't have any quotes from lawmakers or supporters saying this is for women's liberation or to strike back at oppression. Instead, we have:
Well this is kinda old news really. The ticinese voted on this back in april I think ?
As a Swiss, I'm mixed. By principle I really, really dislike the burqa. I think the reason it exists is inherently and purely sexist, no matter how much I heard someone trying to turn it.
On the other, I'm no fool and I'm pretty sure at least one of the main motivation for this is anti-immigration or anti-muslim. Ticino is a canton that leans to the right, and is also the canton that is the most affected by immigration problems (there are places where there are more Italians working than Swiss in Ticino, it's a real problem).
That, and fining the woman is not going to help as it's usually out of her control, technically. But like people mentionned above, it'll probably fall on the family as a whole.
The "worst" i see here (with a muslim center right next to my home) are usually hijabs and chadors. More rarely niqabs. They're not great either but it's at least less of a slap. But it's been years since i've seen a Burqa though. It's like the anti minarets voting: A lot of people were either very against (on the left) or very pro (on the right), but everybody forgot there WASN'T any plan to build minarets here in the first place or a big will to do so...
But as far as respecting the burqa itself tho...nah, i'm not on that boat. I don't really care if it's "cultural" or in the moeurs, there are parts of that we have wilfully given away all these years for the betterment of our society. And I think that one can go the way of the dinosaur as well.
As a Swiss, I'm mixed. By principle I really, really dislike the burqa. I think the reason it exists is inherently and purely sexist, no matter how much I heard someone trying to turn it.
On the other, I'm no fool and I'm pretty sure at least one of the main motivation for this is anti-immigration or anti-muslim. Ticino is a canton that leans to the right, and is also the canton that is the most affected by immigration problems (there are places where there are more Italians working than Swiss in Ticino, it's a real problem).
That, and fining the woman is not going to help as it's usually out of her control, technically. But like people mentionned above, it'll probably fall on the family as a whole.
The "worst" i see here (with a muslim center right next to my home) are usually hijabs and chadors. More rarely niqabs. They're not great either but it's at least less of a slap. But it's been years since i've seen a Burqa though. It's like the anti minarets voting: A lot of people were either very against (on the left) or very pro (on the right), but everybody forgot there WASN'T any plan to build minarets here in the first place or a big will to do so...
But as far as respecting the burqa itself tho...nah, i'm not on that boat. I don't really care if it's "cultural" or in the moeurs, there are parts of that we have wilfully given away all these years for the betterment of our society. And I think that one can go the way of the dinosaur as well.
Messofanego
Banned
You already knew the answer before you wrote that question. There is no evidence. This is just a way so that some people don't feel uncomfortable having to look at people different in looks to them.
It's such a minority of muslim women that even wear the burqa that there's very little influence to be had here.
MAYBE these people are banning coverings because they know racists are more likely to attack muslim women, because after any islamic terrorist attack the muslim women are the easy targets.
That'd be the most generous reasoning I can give for such dealings. Which doesn't reflect well on society...
Fixed that for you Henkka. Mkes complete sense when you put it like that don't it?
So
Positive impacts of the ban
1. ???
Negative impacts of the ban
1. Rise in xenophobic feelings and acts against a minority
2. Rise in resentment and isolation of that minority
3. Restriction of freedom.
4. Fodder for fanatic propaganda
But HEY robertsan gets to feel good about himself for supporting it I guess?
Anton Sugar
Member
As succinct as it is brilliant. Bravo.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Here is the thing-
It is up to the muslim cultures to make the change. Yes, I think the international community overall feels that the practice is backwards, but we've seen relapses before. Like the revolution in Iran-
It's not our place to go in and tell them how to live. Revolutions are made by those who stand in them.
OUR job, is to be in a support-capacity. We need to have support systems for women who want to break free, women who are threatened, cut off or in danger of honor killing or being beaten.
I can't think of any examples were another culture told a culture how to behave. Except for white people during slavery. the cruelty was justified because white people were "educating" african slaves. People felt sorry for them for their tribal cultures and saw fit to go in and vet them to be more civilized. White people- The champions of fighting causes on behalf of other creeds.
Well said
freeofgreed
Member
You're a good poster for the most part, so I always wondered why you we're still a junior, then I looked at your join date. Lol what happened?
Anton Sugar
Member
Exactly.
I agree with Divvy on this and he offered up a much better legislative idea for supporting women who want more autonomy under (or escape from) fundamental Islamic households. The OP legislature doesn't at all seemed interested in that and instead seems like xenophobia disguised as "security," which feels like its exploiting fear and the social climate.
gutter_trash
Banned
meanwhile a secular blogger in Saudi Arabia is jailed to a thousand lashes just because he decided to say his opinion about ''religion'' in his home country
Pretty much. Welcome to switzerland. At least I live in the west, the more progressive part of it. It's a nice country, but it's slow, and right-wing populist ideas easily take roots in people's mind who have been complacent for 150 years, especially ones who live in the smaller cantons. It's a bit silly to say but at least it makes sense this time around it's Ticino because they ACTUALLY have immigration problems (although doesn't justify that they're pretty largely xenophobic, but it does give an explanation). Most of time you see people from small canton where there's almost no foreigners complaining about "muh culture".
I dislike the idea of the veil, but fining seems a real poor options. A help for people who "want out", and the reopening of womens refuges would be great. Sadly considering we can't even get equal wages here for any woman at all, it won't be tomorrow
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked