hosannainexcelsis
Member
Ah ha. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
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Switzerland: Ticino Region Approves Ban on Wearing Burqas in Public
- Thread starter Dicktatorship
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Ah ha. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Uuh or not really. It's no surprise that Europe hate religion way more than America which had a kind of fanatic ridiculous relationship with it.
On the other hand we could also say that we still don't kill our blacks. Way less than what America seems to do recently.
These kind of blank and unthought statements have no meaning outside of angering people..
Dicktatorship
Junior Member
I guess NeoGaf is only progressive when it comes to white women.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
I'm talking about the general racism.
And these shootings happen mostly thanks to their gun laws.
Messofanego
Banned
Targeting punitive measures on a group of people leads to increase of radicalisation. Why am I not surprised, France.
Pops Maellard
Member
This, especially the last part. I think that the Burqa is obviously oppressive and not a core tenet of Islam, but banning it is not a solution.
And this is the fault of swiss muslim women who want to wear a burqa how exactly?
metalslimer
Member
No one has explained how punishing these women will do anything to help them. Even if they are being pressured into it, it's like putting a fine on women for domestic abuse
Actually yes it is. Just like banning guns is a perfectly fine solution to, well guns.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
the truth about why burqas need to be banned everywhere.
gutter_trash
Banned
if the heartland of Salafi Wahhabi isn't open to secular critique, then Western nations should not be obligated to accommodate customs from Salafi Wahhabi ideology
victreeb3l
Member
the truth about why burqas need to be banned everywhere.
Amazing lmao
Are women pressured into it? It's a complicated issue. If you ask them, you're more likely to get a response about how the burqa liberates them.
Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfR8p8cUSU
The problem isn't men telling women what to wear if they choose it for themselves.
Edit: This is a way better discussion actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KabbzQXbZM
Well yeah, but no one just appears in a vacuum. You're a slave to the way you were raised. Maybe the burqa women see girls in hot pants and crop tops, clothes clearly designed to attract male attention, and see those women as slaves to a patriarchal culture. Just saying it isn't a clear black and white thing.
They should be obligated to respect the religious freedom of people. Should Switzerland ban sidelocks because the shit the state of Israel is doing?
Jelly Rajah
Banned
burqa is the exact opposite of freedom. it doesn't really hit you until you've seen people wearing them with your own eyes.
If a woman is being forced to wear it: bad
If she wants to wear it: fine.
From the article posted above
the problem is no one would want to wear it unless they are brainwashed into the oppressive ideology.
That is simply not true. Many muslim wear it because it is a physical connection to their religion, the same way a christian wearing a cross would be. Please talk to more actual muslims about this.
I don't see how that refutes his statement in any way. Sounds like brainwashing to me alright.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
exactly this.
especially since many of these areas where burqas are commonplace can get sweltering hot, yet men can pretty much wear whatever is most comfortable. hm.
Regardless of wether she wants to or not, the fact is the reason and justification of why it exists in the first place remains the same.
How come we usually easily bring up internalised mysogny/sexism when it concerns our own social standards but in that case it's considered culture.
I completely understand that if a woman wants to wear it because she likes it, that's absolutely fine. I'm also against the wholesale "ban" of any veil because I think it's up to the religion/concerner people themselves to sort it out and not us (but let's be fair, it's not gonna happen anytime soon that we're gonna see a reconsideration of some of these secular law). But let's not kid ourselves: A lot of women also do wear these, from Hijab to Chador to Burqa and Niqabs not necessarily as a fashion choice but because the religion dictates it, and they respect the religion, or they respect the husband's rule.
only insofar as all religious observation is brainwashing, but if we only legislate against islam then we're bigots
it's up to us to clearly communicate how we expect them to integrate though.
i will not argue that the burqa is sexist and oppressive. this is because all abrahamic religions are sexist and oppressive.
but you cannot get rid of something like this by fining muslims. it's 100% counter-productive.
This has a lot to do with bigotry and less to do with liberalism.
Europeans are threatened by Muslim immigrants like Protestants were threatened by Catholics coming to the US. Europe's response has been it's the white's way or the highway.
I suppose nuns are brainwashed to wearing habits, and priests and monks are brainwashed into wearing robes as well. I mean, I guess so if you want to view it that way. But there are many places on this planet where you can find muslim women of all varieties, some who choose to wear coverings, some who don't, and some who do occasionally. That sounds like true freedom to me.
and that's a good thing. religion already has special treatment in places it shouldn't. things like tax exceptions, special rules and so on. religion should be treated no different from any hobby or other recreational activity from a legal point of view.
as for this case, it's special because it involves covering the face which is a big deal in the west since we rely so much on facial expression and identification to communicate. I don't actually condone a ban though, as others have said I don't think it will be effective. Instead we need to be better at secularizing immigrants and helping them abandon religion and values that don't fit in our society on their own accord.
true freedom is not something we want. society can't work with that. you need people to have a fairly common vision of what society should be like, you know things like freedom of speech, and other values.
it's not strange. the massive immigration over the years, with the multicultural approach of not criticizing ideologies out of fear for offending didn't leave much room for other results.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
If you consider religion brainwashing that should be legally prohibited when possible, OK. But don't be surprised when Muslims push back against that.
The attempt of secular Western countries to convert Arab Muslims to the principles of Western liberal democracy seems largely unsuccessful so far, and I'm not sure what people expect continuing the same course will accomplish.
Then girls in the west dressing sexy is brainwashing too. Culture is what makes us humans, you seem extremely technocratic.
the truth about why burqas need to be banned everywhere.
lol, but that is not a burqa and everyone can hide shit under their dress.
victreeb3l
Member
Basically.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
I'm guessing you've never been to the Middle East or any Asian country with a high Muslim population.
Messofanego
Banned
Banning guns has been effective in most countries. But where's the evidence for the net benefits of banning burqas? Have women been consulted on this ban, or is it men imposing their rule again just like they do in oppressive countries? Just in this thread an article posited that the 5 year burqa ban been to be an absolute failure in France and made things worse which ties well towards what happened recently.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
I should clarify that I am not only referring to the treatment of Muslim immigrants in Europe, but also to Western governments attempting to cause regime change in the Middle East, working directly or by proxy to depose either Islamist regimes or dictators such as Hussein and Assad and trying to replace them with democracies on the Western model.
excelsiorlef
Member
You're not sorry
excelsiorlef
Member
What's your opinion on hate speech laws?
Mr. Giggles
Member
ive seen ladies wear it with my own eyes and even asked them why they do it and it's a religious choice they make. Some wear just a veil while others cover themselves up more, some not at all.
I was born and raised in the Middle East, lived there for 18 years before migrating to the west please don't feed me this bullshit of brainwashing.
What's your opinion on nuns btw?
the truth about why burqas need to be banned everywhere.
That's not a burqa, that's a lady in a veil wearing a dress. Your bigotry is showing
Since we are sharing anecdotes, when I lived in Algeria and asked the women why some locals wore burqas their answer was it was forced on them by islamists.
Mr. Giggles
Member
For sure some women are forced by asshole husbands into it but let's not use brainwashing as some blanket reasoning
If you read through my whole post you would have seen this
Edit:
Since you spoke with these women, were they ALL forced into it or were only some of them
Messofanego
Banned
Oh, nice trolling. For a second I thought you were serious in making the mistake thinking that was a burqa and why someone wearing a dress just like anyone else or even a middle eastern man with a thawb could hide something under it.
the truth about why burqas need to be banned everywhere.
I don't think it's brainwashing, I think it's a straight up violent imposition. I remember a man getting hysterical and kicking his wife in the back at Algiers airport because his wife (wearing a burqa) had joined the queue that had a male guard for pat downs at a security check. Unsurprisingly, nobody batted an eye seeing that woman abused.
If people want to live under third world rules then they should stay there. When in Rome do as romans do. My hat's off to Switzerland.
No, I spoke to the women I worked with. The ones wearing burqa weren't allowed to speak to me or my colleagues.
Angelus Errare
Banned
So a bunch of old men dictate what women should wear via religion, and the solution to that is....to have a bunch of old men dictate what women can wear via law.
lol, how can anyone say that's the right approach?
Oh snap.
lol, how can anyone say that's the right approach?
Oh snap.
Religion is rarely a choice tho. Normally you will have the religion of your region/parents/family.
Mr. Giggles
Member
So?! Ive seen abusive husbands who man handled their wives here without intervention from others in Canada as well who weren't Muslim but im not going to write off a whole belief system due to the douche baggery of one guy. That's like saying the KKK are representative of all white Christians.
of course it is, even if you're born into a religion you don't have to follow it even if it is in secrecy. All it takes is thinking and looking within yourself, ask the many now non-Muslim posters on GAF.
No one denies there are connections to sexist oppression in terms of traditional dress. But fining the women who choose to wear it honestly sounds like a religious expression tax.
Like someone said, there should be sources of help if there's abuse or being forced to wear anything, but banning an article of clothing sounds like the kind of oppression people don't want to happen
I am sure that's a comforting thought for women forced to a religious dress code in public.
Of course, they can always choose not to wear them.
Sometimes at risk of their lives, but hey, it's a choice.
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