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Opinion Taking Sonic Seriously - or - "the Blue Hedgehog" fallacy

What's the ideal tone of the series?


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AzafuseYugi

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one of my biggest pet peeves when it reffers to Sonic has been hearing people talking about how Sonic shoudn't take itself seriously because "he's a blue hedgehog that GOTTA GO FAST XD" and that "He shoudn't be taken seriously", people tend to instantly reject the idea of a Sonic game taking itself seriously, because "Mario isn't serious so shoudn't Sonic" and here's why i think that's pure BS
  1. "Serious" doesn't necessarily mean Dark and Edgy, for example, Earthbound was a serious game despite having a lot of quirky humor
  2. Sonic isn't Mario, he was meant to be "edgier" than Mario in everyway, that was the appeal of Sonic, i think having Sonic fight world ending threats with butt rock compared to rescuing the princess for the 90000th time is part of the appeal.
  3. just because one game screwed it up doesn't mean all of the serious games are "bad" or have "bad stories", Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Shadow, Secret Rings, Unleashed and Black Knight all had good storytelling with a more fleshed out world and characters, just because 06 had a princess kissing Sonic doesn't mean SA2 did or
 
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ManaByte

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Umbasaborne

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There are enough people out there who still try to convince themselves that sonic 06 was good and told a great story that sadly much of the fanbase still wants sonic by way of final fantasy. Sonic should be like an animated movie, if it gets serious it should be pixar serious, not fucking lord of the chaose emeralds
 

AzafuseYugi

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There are enough people out there who still try to convince themselves that sonic 06 was good and told a great story that sadly much of the fanbase still wants sonic by way of final fantasy. Sonic should be like an animated movie, if it gets serious it should be pixar serious, not fucking lord of the chaose emeralds
This is proof of point 3, Sonic 06 had a terrible story because it tried too hard to pander to western gamers without knowing what they liked, and thus created a convoluted clashing mess, taking away the charm and attitude of Sonic and his world.

meanwhile Adventure 1, 2 and Heroes also did "lord of chaos emeralds" while keeping the action, the attitude and the charm, outside of Sonic 06, i think the tone that fits sonic better would be that of a fighting shonen anime, like Dragon Ball, Naruto or One Piece. if their going dark, wich they don't always have to, then do more gratitious Anime levels of dark and have gods wiping out ancient civilizations or little girls getting shot. for example. as that kind of action packed, fast storytelling fits with the fast arcadey gameplay. unlike the usually soft and sweet style, Pixar has.
 
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BattleScar

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More than anything, it needs to be well written.
However, there needs to be an element of understanding that you can only take yourself so seriously. Sonic the hedgehog doesn't need to be fucking Watership Down or Grave of the Fireflies. It can have its moments where the tone is sombre or serious. But equally there should be some element of levity.

There are enough people out there who still try to convince themselves that sonic 06 was good and told a great story that sadly much of the fanbase still wants sonic by way of final fantasy. Sonic should be like an animated movie, if it gets serious it should be pixar serious, not fucking lord of the chaose emeralds

See the problem with 06, was that it was a shit story and was badly written across the board. I'm sure that Sonic could tell a bombastic meme level serious story, as long as there was an element of self-awareness and if it wasn't written by fucking idiots with completely bargain basement dialogue and juvenile plot elements - and all without a hint of irony.
 

Outlier

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All of the above.

Sonic can legit be good and is best when it does both light hearted and serious, but It's a mystery why so many devs can't pull it off.
 
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Torrent of Pork

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Anything other than "lighthearted and silly" puts you within spitting distance of the Sonic fandom on FurAffinity, and that's a vile lair of scum and villainy that you don't want to subject yourself to.

Not enough bleach in the world.
 
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AzafuseYugi

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This totally feels like a coherent dramatic moment.
again read point 3, just because one scene from one poorly written game doesn't mean sonic being serious is bad
does that discredit Sonic Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, Riders, Secret Rings, Riders Zero Gravity, Unleashed, and Black Knight?
all of wich had pretty good plots, with charming worlds, character development, and overall coolness?
Anything other than "lighthearted and silly" puts you within spitting distance of the Sonic fandom on FurAffinity, and that's a vile lair of scum and villainy that you don't want to subject yourself to. Not enough bleach in the world
dead joke, not everyone who is a serious Sonic fan has to be a furry, i like Shonen Anime like Classic Dragon Ball, Hunter x Hunter, InuYasha and Bleach aswell as weeb-ish stuff like Megaman, hell my pfp is a character from Megaman and (i chose him because i like his design and personality) all of wich have a tone similar to what i'd want Sonic to be like.
 
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lame gag1990

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i know it's a likealy joke but not everyone who is a sonic fan and likes serious sonic is a furry, there's just as many weeaboos in the fanbase than furries, i myself am a weeb, who is also into Megaman (my PFP is a character from Megaman), Evangelion, Hunter x Hunter, InuYasha, and Classic DragonBall amongst others,
lol eh? That wasn't me.
 

LRKD

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The story doesn't have to be super dramatic, or dark, but it does need to take itself seriously. I personally prefer Sonic Adventure 2, it's a very silly game despite the stakes always being high, and the characters always taking things seriously. When the island is about to blow Sonic takes it as a real threat to his friends and runs off to find them and make sure they're safe. It'd be impossible to care about the story, or characters if Sonic just tossed of a quip instead and ran off without a care.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Apr 20, 2021
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Anything other than "lighthearted and silly" puts you within spitting distance of the Sonic fandom on FurAffinity, and that's a vile lair of scum and villainy that you don't want to subject yourself to.

Not enough bleach in the world.
reposting this as the previous one targeted the wrong user.

Dead joke, not everyone who is a serious Sonic fan has to be a furry, i like Shonen Anime like Classic Dragon Ball, Hunter x Hunter, InuYasha and Bleach aswell as weeb-ish stuff like Megaman, hell my pfp is a character from Megaman and (i chose him because i like his design and personality) all of wich have a tone similar to what i'd want Sonic to be like.
 

Torrent of Pork

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reposting this as the previous one targeted the wrong user.

Dead joke, not everyone who is a serious Sonic fan has to be a furry, i like Shonen Anime like Classic Dragon Ball, Hunter x Hunter, InuYasha and Bleach aswell as weeb-ish stuff like Megaman, hell my pfp is a character from Megaman and (i chose him because i like his design and personality) all of wich have a tone similar to what i'd want Sonic to be like.
I never said every Sonic fan is a furry, I said anybody who takes the Sonic franchise any more seriously than lighthearted children's cartoons are psychopaths.
 
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Zannegan

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I think it should take itself "seriously" in the sense that it shouldn't be too in on the joke. It takes a light touch and a keen sense of humor to pull off fourth wall breaking, and I'm not on the Adventure Time high AF everything is a joke now weirdness train. So, for me, it should be ligjthearted and occasionally humorous without trying too hard to be funny.
 
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Saber

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Before all this overthinking, first they need to hire a better writer.

As for tone, Sonic is funny(or at least try to be and fail miserabilly) and cheesy. No need for dark tones or retarded edgy stuff. If theres any dark stuff at all, it should be very light and almost not notable.

That means abobinations like Shadow and Silver must go and only appear on party games, where their existence means nothing more than increase the number of playable characters.
 
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6502

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It needs to be as serious as Mario. They are children's stories. These games used to appeal to you because you were a kid, they still appeal to kids - it isn't the job of children's entertainment to grow up with you.

We play with toys because it is fun, get over it guys.
 

Dynasty8

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Sonic and Kingdom Hearts have become meme-like jokes. Can't take either one of them seriously.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Before all this overthinking, first they need to hire a better writer.

As for tone, Sonic is funny(or at least try to be a fail miserabilly) and cheesy. No need for dark tones or retarded edgy stuff. If theres any dark stuff at all, it should be very light and almost not notable.

That means abobinations like Shadow and Silver must go and only appear on party games, where their existence means nothing more than increase the number of playable characters.
agree for the most part but i think Shadow and Silver are good characters that deserve better, so does everyone besides Sonic really, i think the best tone for Sonic like i said was a Shonen-light tone, action-packed with attitude but have serious moments, mainly near the climax, Adventure 1 & 2 are the go-to examples.
It needs to be as serious as Mario. They are children's stories. These games used to appeal to you because you were a kid, they still appeal to kids - it isn't the job of children's entertainment to grow up with you.

We play with toys because it is fun, get over it guys.
Sonic was meant to aim at an audience of teenagers, who played the Genesis because it was cooler than the "lame mario" children LOVE the dark stuff, why do you think there was a lot of 10 year old Shadow the Hedgehog stans making Sonic OC's and Dark Sonic AMV's?

plus Kirby, Pokemon and Megaman all have dark lore and some sad moments and people take them seriously, so why not Sonic?
 
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AzafuseYugi

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We need more Pro bestiality content like Sonic 06, I liked the way the series was heading...
when will people learn.. move on Sonic 06 came out like 15 years ago. and sonic was serious well before that.
 
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SonicJams

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Easy as,

The same as good animated movies - Toy story, finding nemo, monsters inc. (Light hearted but serious)

NOT Trolls, Smurfs, and emoji movie.(Light hearted and silly).

Done 🙌
 

Dave_at_Home

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This totally feels like a coherent dramatic moment.
This feels like waking up from a nightmare in a cold sweat. I have no idea why it happened, but I do know I need to stop eating spicy foods before bed.


one of my biggest pet peeves when it reffers to Sonic has been hearing people talking about how Sonic shoudn't take itself seriously because "he's a blue hedgehog that GOTTA GO FAST XD" and that "He shoudn't be taken seriously", people tend to instantly reject the idea of a Sonic game taking itself seriously, because "Mario isn't serious so shoudn't Sonic" and here's why i think that's pure BS
  1. "Serious" doesn't necessarily mean Dark and Edgy, for example, Earthbound was a serious game despite having a lot of quirky humor
  2. Sonic isn't Mario, he was meant to be "edgier" than Mario in everyway, that was the appeal of Sonic, i think having Sonic fight world ending threats with butt rock compared to rescuing the princess for the 90000th time is part of the appeal.
  3. just because one game screwed it up doesn't mean all of the serious games are "bad" or have "bad stories", Sonic Adventure, Adventure 2, Shadow, Secret Rings, Unleashed and Black Knight all had good storytelling with a more fleshed out world and characters, just because 06 had a princess kissing Sonic doesn't mean SA2 did or
Ah, yes, Sonic The Hedgehog. The Occam's Razor of video games.

Sega's old school approach with Sonic is honestly the only real direction. Sonic is a cute little 90's mascot that goes fast. That's it. It doesn't need to be anything else. All the ridiculous shit that came after the 16-bit era was never born out of a natural evolution of the franchise. It exists because Sega wanted to milk the cute little bastard for all it was worth. They took this franchise to whatever plane of existence that could produce a dollar. He's just a blue hedgehog that saves his fellow animals from a crazy looking fat guy. Sega could not help but far overextend the extremely basic premise of the classic 2-D scroller.
 
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Devgru

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Jan 22, 2021
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when will people learn.. move on Sonic 06 came out like 15 years ago. and sonic was serious well before that.
Actually the Original concept of the first Sonic game was gonna feature Sonic having a love Interest with a human character. Sega Has been Pro bestiality from the start.
 
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AzafuseYugi

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This feels like waking up from a nightmare in a cold sweat. I have no idea why it happened, but I do know I need to stop eating spicy foods before bed.



Ah, yes, Sonic The Hedgehog. The Occam's Razor of video games.

Sega's old school approach with Sonic is honestly the only real direction. Sonic is a cute little 90's mascot that goes fast. That's it. It doesn't need to be anything else. All the ridiculous shit that came after the 16-bit era was never born out of a natural evolution of the franchise. It exists because Sega wanted to milk the cute little bastard for all it was worth. They took this franchise to whatever plane of existence that could produce a dollar. He's just a blue hedgehog that saves his fellow animals from a crazy looking fat guy. Sega could not help but far overextend the extremely basic premise of the classic 2-D scroller.
heavily disagree with everything, Sonic was always meant to be cooler and edgier than Mario, and even since day 1 had some special inspiration taken from anime like Dragon Ball, wich Yuji Naka admits was a huge fan of, you could argue Sonic's entire existance was made to cash in on Mario and current trends.

you can easily label SEGA as an evil company that just wants your money (as if Nintendo wasn't like that already), but truth is if you look into it, the games after the Genesis still had the same passion put into it, only catering to a new audience, Adventure 1 is an evolution of Genesis Sonic in the same way Mario 64 is an evolution of SNES Mario, in fact i think Sonic Adventure has more to do with Genesis Sonic than Mario 64 has to do with SNES Mario, and Mario 64 has more to do with Genesis Sonic than SNES Mario, notice how particularily fun it is to speedrun Mario 64 due to it's exelent sense of momentum? and Adventure 1 has a lot of callbacks story and gameplay wise to the Genesis games (Knuckles' Tribe from Sonic 3&K plays a major role in the story, Tails gets more character development since Sonic 2, Amy mentions the events of Sonic CD, and there's even a deconstruction of the whole Eggman turning animals into robots thing from Sonic 1) and plays a lot like the Momentum based, arcadey platformer the Genesis games were.

Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and even 06 are all takes on the evolution Sonic Adventure gave us, in the same way Sunshine, Galaxy 1 & 2 and Odyssey are takes on the evolution Mario 64 gave us. i think going back to "cute mascot" is both blatant pandering to how non-fans remember the genesis games rather than how the genesis games actually were and a betrayal of Sonic's overall concept of being cool, edgy and full of attitude, hence i think Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and even Shadow the Hedgehog are more faithfull to the series' roots than Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations or Sonic Lost World because of that, Adventure had Sonic with a shit-eatting grin fighting against a giant water kaiju to the beats of butt rock, while the latter have Sonic make corny food jokes.

Actually the Original concept of the first Sonic game was gonna feature Sonic having a love Interest with a human character. Sega Has been Pro bestiality from the start.
i only see that as a cartoon thing, like how Roger Rabbit is in love with Jessica Rabbit.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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Best selling Sonic games:

Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic Heroes
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic 3
Sonic Adventure 2+battle
Sonic Colors

Not sure if this helps people analyse what most gamers want in a Sonic game.
 

MvCSpiderman

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heavily disagree with everything, Sonic was always meant to be cooler and edgier than Mario, and even since day 1 had some special inspiration taken from anime like Dragon Ball, wich Yuji Naka admits was a huge fan of, you could argue Sonic's entire existance was made to cash in on Mario and current trends.

you can easily label SEGA as an evil company that just wants your money (as if Nintendo wasn't like that already), but truth is if you look into it, the games after the Genesis still had the same passion put into it, only catering to a new audience, Adventure 1 is an evolution of Genesis Sonic in the same way Mario 64 is an evolution of SNES Mario, in fact i think Sonic Adventure has more to do with Genesis Sonic than Mario 64 has to do with SNES Mario, and Mario 64 has more to do with Genesis Sonic than SNES Mario, notice how particularily fun it is to speedrun Mario 64 due to it's exelent sense of momentum? and Adventure 1 has a lot of callbacks story and gameplay wise to the Genesis games (Knuckles' Tribe from Sonic 3&K plays a major role in the story, Tails gets more character development since Sonic 2, Amy mentions the events of Sonic CD, and there's even a deconstruction of the whole Eggman turning animals into robots thing from Sonic 1) and plays a lot like the Momentum based, arcadey platformer the Genesis games were.

Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and even 06 are all takes on the evolution Sonic Adventure gave us, in the same way Sunshine, Galaxy 1 & 2 and Odyssey are takes on the evolution Mario 64 gave us.


i only see that as a cartoon thing, like how Roger Rabbit is in love with Jessica Rabbit.
Galaxy isn't a take on M64 at all, that was them refreshing the franchise after Sunshine. Odyssey is a different attempt at open platforming entirely.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Galaxy isn't a take on M64 at all, that was them refreshing the franchise after Sunshine. Odyssey is a different attempt at open platforming entirely.
i think Galaxy and Odyssey share enough similarities to 64 to be different takes, anti-gravity or Cappy aren't any different than Shadow shooting guns or Sonic using the power of team work.
 

nkarafo

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You seem to be taking all these aspects as an ON/OFF switch. In reality, these have many different levels.

You can be a tiny bit edgy, or a little more, or so edgy that it becomes cringe.

You can be a little more serious with your story and characters. Or you can be so serious that it becomes cringe.

Yes, we get it. Sonic was always made to be edgier than Mario. But how much is enough? The original Genesis trilogy had the right amount. Sonic had that grin on his face and that was it. There was nothing else that indicated Sonic is edgier than Mario, other than some marketing by Sega or the words of game reviewers/journalists.

3D Sonic games, however, took that edginess further. They redesigned Sonic to look even more edgy. They also made him talk and act like a teenage edgelord. And then focused way more on the cutscenes/stories than they should. And they made them way more serious than they should.

Yet, the argument is always "Sonic was always edgy" by Sonic fans. Well, no he wasn't that much. The original trilogy had a good balance of edgy/seriousness/silliness. It also had the right amount of cutscenes in S3&K. Just a few second transitions.

And there was no voice acting. Everyone could just imagine how Sonic would sound if he talks and everyone could make a version that they like. Should Sonic have his own, canon voice though? Sure, but don't expect everyone to like it. And if they don't, that doesn't mean you have to patronize them by saying "Sonic was always supposed to sound like that".

This is the problem with current Sonic fans. They can't accept that older fans may not like the direction the franchise took after the Genesis games. They always try to convince older Sonic fans that they were wrong all along for liking Sonic back then, or for disliking him now. Well, sorry, but in my mind Sonic is now nothing more than an edgy nickelodeon cartoon for little kids. And i mean little kids, younger than 10. Because only a very young child would be impressed by that kind of edginess and serious tone with these ridiculous characters (let's not even mention Sonic's friends).

Even Mario games with all the "yahoos" and lightheartedness seem much more mature to me than modern Sonic. Because at least Mario doesn't take itself too seriously and doesn't try to impress you with it's dark/edgy tone. And as an adult, i appreciate that.
 
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MvCSpiderman

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i think Galaxy and Odyssey share enough similarities to 64 to be different takes, anti-gravity or Cappy aren't any different than Shadow shooting guns or Sonic using the power of team work.
The designn philosophies between Mario 64 and Galaxy are different galaxy is closer to Crash
 

Dave_at_Home

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heavily disagree with everything, Sonic was always meant to be cooler and edgier than Mario, and even since day 1 had some special inspiration taken from anime like Dragon Ball, wich Yuji Naka admits was a huge fan of, you could argue Sonic's entire existance was made to cash in on Mario and current trends.

you can easily label SEGA as an evil company that just wants your money (as if Nintendo wasn't like that already), but truth is if you look into it, the games after the Genesis still had the same passion put into it, only catering to a new audience, Adventure 1 is an evolution of Genesis Sonic in the same way Mario 64 is an evolution of SNES Mario, in fact i think Sonic Adventure has more to do with Genesis Sonic than Mario 64 has to do with SNES Mario, and Mario 64 has more to do with Genesis Sonic than SNES Mario, notice how particularily fun it is to speedrun Mario 64 due to it's exelent sense of momentum? and Adventure 1 has a lot of callbacks story and gameplay wise to the Genesis games (Knuckles' Tribe from Sonic 3&K plays a major role in the story, Tails gets more character development since Sonic 2, Amy mentions the events of Sonic CD, and there's even a deconstruction of the whole Eggman turning animals into robots thing from Sonic 1) and plays a lot like the Momentum based, arcadey platformer the Genesis games were.

Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and even 06 are all takes on the evolution Sonic Adventure gave us, in the same way Sunshine, Galaxy 1 & 2 and Odyssey are takes on the evolution Mario 64 gave us. i think going back to "cute mascot" is both blatant pandering to how non-fans remember the genesis games rather than how the genesis games actually were and a betrayal of Sonic's overall concept of being cool, edgy and full of attitude, hence i think Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and even Shadow the Hedgehog are more faithfull to the series' roots than Sonic Colors, Sonic Generations or Sonic Lost World because of that, Adventure had Sonic with a shit-eatting grin fighting against a giant water kaiju to the beats of butt rock, while the latter have Sonic make corny food jokes.


i only see that as a cartoon thing, like how Roger Rabbit is in love with Jessica Rabbit.
I'm not trying to portray Sega evil and Nintendo good, here. There's just the reality of what works both franchises. Mario is multifaceted since he's a funny looking human that's also a plumber. Tremendous amount of direction you can go with that, and thank the heavens Mario hasn't gone "full anime" like Sonic. Nintendo knows Mario's lane. Sega only recently understands what makes Sonic work is the old school scrolling action starring an cute 90's mascot.

I also don't buy your "blatant pandering" comment. Old school fans, such as myself, know what makes Sonic work. He goes fast in one direction. It's never worked in full 3-D and all those Sonic Adventure games have aged like milk. Sega had overextended the brand because it's their mascot and they were gonna do whatever they could to keep him relevant. Unfortunately, he became a joke. I've always viewed Sonic as a one trick pony, but a classic one at that. Sega ruined Sonic with so many failed modern attempts. Square peg, round hole.

Don't even get me started on the diehard fans. Sega went full anime with Sonic and that has to be the worst aspect of them all. It's attracted all the weeaboos with its inane story and characters. This is what ultimately turns so many old school gamers away from Sonic. There's nothing edgy about what Sega has done with Sonic. It's a teenage weeaboos wet dream with all that anime bullshit. We all know what you can find in Google image search if you start looking for those Sonic characters...

Sonic has always been what it was suppose to be; A basic side scrolling 90's mascot that goes fast. That's what old school fans love about him. There's a lot of beauty in that simplicity. I think the reality for many of the diehards is they don't realize they're no longer the target audience. You're too old to be giving a shit about the story or characters of this franchise. It's for kids. Let the kids have their fun without the older gamers trying to force some semblance of "maturity" into the franchise.

It's like being in your 30's while still being a Power Rangers fan and expecting the franchise to grow up with you. No, dude. You grew up. In the meantime, lets hope Sega keeps letting Sonic do what he does best. Fast, 2-D scrolling action. If Sega can stick to that, then they have my attention. It's something I can enjoy with my nieces and nephews. Kind of like every Mario game. Funny how that works.
 
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Kholinar

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I'm not trying to portray Sega evil and Nintendo good, here. There's just the reality of what works both franchises. Mario is multifaceted since he's a funny looking human that's also a plumber. Tremendous amount of direction you can go with that, and thank the heavens Mario hasn't gone "full anime" like Sonic. Nintendo knows Mario's lane. Sega only recently understands what makes Sonic work is the old school scrolling action starring an cute 90's mascot.

I also don't buy your "blatant pandering" comment. Old school fans, such as myself, know what makes Sonic work. He goes fast in one direction. It's never worked in full 3-D and all those Sonic Adventure games have aged like milk. Sega had overextended the brand because it's their mascot and they were gonna do whatever they could to keep him relevant. Unfortunately, he became a joke. I've always viewed Sonic as a one trick pony, but a classic one at that. Sega ruined Sonic with so many failed modern attempts. Square peg, round hole.

Don't even get me started on the diehard fans. Sega went full anime with Sonic and that has to be the worst aspect of them all. It's attracted all the weeaboos with its inane story and characters. This is what ultimately turns so many old school gamers away from Sonic. There's nothing edgy about what Sega has done with Sonic. It's a teenage weeaboos wet dream with all that anime bullshit. We all know what you can find in Google image search if you start looking for those Sonic characters...

Sonic has always been what it was suppose to be; A basic side scrolling 90's mascot that goes fast. That's what old school fans love about him. There's a lot of beauty in that simplicity. I think the reality for many of the diehards is they don't realize they're no longer the target audience. You're too old to be giving a shit about the story or characters of this franchise. It's for kids. Let the kids have their fun without the older gamers trying to force some semblance of "maturity" into the franchise.

It's like being in your 30's while still being a Power Rangers fan and expecting the franchise to grow up with you. No, dude. You grew up. In the meantime, lets hope Sega keeps letting Sonic do what he does best. Fast, 2-D scrolling action. If Sega can stick to that, then they have my attention. It's something I can enjoy with my nieces and nephews. Kind of like every Mario game. Funny how that works.
How are you trying to assert what Sonic is 'supposed to be' or 'intended to be' when the original creator of Sonic literally approved his transition to 3D and was working on that title? 🤦‍♂️ Old school fans aren't true fans. They don't actually care about the franchise innovating, experimenting, and progressing. They just want things to stagnate ad infinitum, this motivation of which they hide behind mantras like: 'Oh, [x] title aged like milk! Sonic never worked in 3D!'

Like, um, okay? Sonic's 3D transition hasn't been perfect, but who cares? Just because he hasn't been perfect today, doesn't mean he won't be tomorrow. I invite Sonic Team to keep striving to find that golden formula, because when they do, that means the series can only go higher, rather than slowly fade out of the public memory by sticking with 2D. Sonic deserves a production value like R&C, Crash, Mario, etc. There's only so much you can do with 2D.

Also, Sonic has never been solely for kids. That has never ever been the case. At worst, he's been E for everyone. I struggle to even think of a mainline Sonic game that's purely and conspicuously for kids. ...Sonic Schoolhouse, maybe? xD.
 
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Dave_at_Home

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Don't be obtuse, you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say Sonic is aimed at a younger audience versus the weeaboo culture that can't let go. Sonic is for everyone. Absolutely. The well had been poisoned for a long time because Sega pandered to that audience.

As for what's recently come out of Sega as it relates to Sonic. The proof is in the pudding. If you like the 3-D stuff. Great. Although, people have time and time again rejected 3-D Sonic games. Sega gained tremendous good will with the more recent release of Sonic Mania. Sega knows this is what sells and this is what brings the best critical and audience reception.

Some games are perfect the way they are. There can still be room to grow in the franchise, just not the direction it had gone down for so long turning it into the punchline of the industry. Sonic Mania is evidence to playing the strengths of the franchise while also slowly opening up new things to enjoy about the formula. Again, I'll repeat what I said at the end of my previous post. The problem isn't Sonic not maturing. The problem is, you grew up. As someone that loved the Genesis games, I'm liking the direction Sega is now going. Sonic playing to its strengths while being fun and lighthearted for all ages. Kick that edgy, anime, and overly serious tone to the gutter where it belongs.
 

6502

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Sonic was meant to aim at an audience of teenagers, who played the Genesis because it was cooler than the "lame mario" children LOVE the dark stuff, why do you think there was a lot of 10 year old Shadow the Hedgehog stans making Sonic OC's and Dark Sonic AMV's?


I agree it was older / cooler than mario in the Mega Drive days but how much of that was due to limitations? The cartoon around that time was childish and the series quickly became severely immature in games imo.

My criticism is that the story gets in the way to the point of SA2 where we had to play boring levels with annoying characters. Getting the story more mature won't solve the problem (can just press a button to skip anyway) - it is actually the lack of ideas and poor design that has held the series back / introduced the missteps.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Apr 20, 2021
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I'm not trying to portray Sega evil and Nintendo good, here. There's just the reality of what works both franchises. Mario is multifaceted since he's a funny looking human that's also a plumber. Tremendous amount of direction you can go with that, and thank the heavens Mario hasn't gone "full anime" like Sonic. Nintendo knows Mario's lane. Sega only recently understands what makes Sonic work is the old school scrolling action starring an cute 90's mascot.

I also don't buy your "blatant pandering" comment. Old school fans, such as myself, know what makes Sonic work. He goes fast in one direction. It's never worked in full 3-D and all those Sonic Adventure games have aged like milk. Sega had overextended the brand because it's their mascot and they were gonna do whatever they could to keep him relevant. Unfortunately, he became a joke. I've always viewed Sonic as a one trick pony, but a classic one at that. Sega ruined Sonic with so many failed modern attempts. Square peg, round hole.

Don't even get me started on the diehard fans. Sega went full anime with Sonic and that has to be the worst aspect of them all. It's attracted all the weeaboos with its inane story and characters. This is what ultimately turns so many old school gamers away from Sonic. There's nothing edgy about what Sega has done with Sonic. It's a teenage weeaboos wet dream with all that anime bullshit. We all know what you can find in Google image search if you start looking for those Sonic characters...

Sonic has always been what it was suppose to be; A basic side scrolling 90's mascot that goes fast. That's what old school fans love about him. There's a lot of beauty in that simplicity. I think the reality for many of the diehards is they don't realize they're no longer the target audience. You're too old to be giving a shit about the story or characters of this franchise. It's for kids. Let the kids have their fun without the older gamers trying to force some semblance of "maturity" into the franchise.

It's like being in your 30's while still being a Power Rangers fan and expecting the franchise to grow up with you. No, dude. You grew up. In the meantime, lets hope Sega keeps letting Sonic do what he does best. Fast, 2-D scrolling action. If Sega can stick to that, then they have my attention. It's something I can enjoy with my nieces and nephews. Kind of like every Mario game. Funny how that works.
thing is like i said Mario was meant to be a fun wholesome cartoon mascot that was timeless like Mickey Mouse, Sonic was meant to be a hip and cool cartoon mascot with attitude, like i said just because "it's for kids" doesn't mean it has to be always be childish, Pokemon, Kirby, Megaman, all knew how to have darker stories aimed at kids, even Mario himself had the RPG's like Paper Mario: the Thousand Year Door or Super Paper Mario that went full dark at times, i see tons of people being passionate on Kirby lore or Pokemon lore or Megaman lore, why can't i be passionate on Sonic lore when it was genuinly well made back in the day?

let's also remember not everyone grew up in the 90's, a lot of Sonic fans grew up with the darker games in the 2000's, like Sonic Adventure 2 Battle or Shadow the Hedgehog and loved it,and i also disagree, i think 3D Sonic was pretty good a lot of the time, sure the Adventure games aged poorly but so did every game at the time in one way or another, even Mario 64, the best 3D platformer of the era didn't age that well, but something Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure have in common is that their still very enjoyable regardless, let alone stuff like Generations, Colors and even Unleashed all of wich were very enjoyable games despite their flaws, and just because it hasn't fully worked doesn't mean it can't, Mario was able to succesfully go to 3D all the time and have gimmicks like F.L.U.D.D, Antigravity and Cappy, if Sonic kept experimenting like that people would complain.

it's not a matter of "oh your too old because x series is for kids" because even people outside the target audience have a right to complain if something sucks, just because Paper Mario Sticker Star is for kids doesn't mean it excuses it for being a piss easy souless attempt at a pseudo-RPG compared to how well written, well designed and dark Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door was, i feel the same way for both Paper Mario and Sonic.

except guess what? a bunch of these characters are made by children, Sonic's target audience, a bunch of these die hard fans are the same audience SEGA was capturing in the 90's, except one decade later when everything deemed "hip and cool" changed, now it was Grundge, Anime and X-treme Sports and Sonic had all of that. so your expecting people to grow out of Sonic because it's for kids but also complain about kids being into Sonic? good job sir.

I agree it was older / cooler than mario in the Mega Drive days but how much of that was due to limitations? The cartoon around that time was childish and the series quickly became severely immature in games imo.

My criticism is that the story gets in the way to the point of SA2 where we had to play boring levels with annoying characters. Getting the story more mature won't solve the problem (can just press a button to skip anyway) - it is actually the lack of ideas and poor design that has held the series back / introduced the missteps.
agree for some part, but SatAM even with it's comedic moments got very dark and we aren't talking about gameplay that's another topic
 
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AzafuseYugi

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Apr 20, 2021
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You seem to be taking all these aspects as an ON/OFF switch. In reality, these have many different levels.

You can be a tiny bit edgy, or a little more, or so edgy that it becomes cringe.

You can be a little more serious with your story and characters. Or you can be so serious that it becomes cringe.

Yes, we get it. Sonic was always made to be edgier than Mario. But how much is enough? The original Genesis trilogy had the right amount. Sonic had that grin on his face and that was it. There was nothing else that indicated Sonic is edgier than Mario, other than some marketing by Sega or the words of game reviewers/journalists.

3D Sonic games, however, took that edginess further. They redesigned Sonic to look even more edgy. They also made him talk and act like a teenage edgelord. And then focused way more on the cutscenes/stories than they should. And they made them way more serious than they should.

Yet, the argument is always "Sonic was always edgy" by Sonic fans. Well, no he wasn't that much. The original trilogy had a good balance of edgy/seriousness/silliness. It also had the right amount of cutscenes in S3&K. Just a few second transitions.

And there was no voice acting. Everyone could just imagine how Sonic would sound if he talks and everyone could make a version that they like. Should Sonic have his own, canon voice though? Sure, but don't expect everyone to like it. And if they don't, that doesn't mean you have to patronize them by saying "Sonic was always supposed to sound like that".

This is the problem with current Sonic fans. They can't accept that older fans may not like the direction the franchise took after the Genesis games. They always try to convince older Sonic fans that they were wrong all along for liking Sonic back then, or for disliking him now. Well, sorry, but in my mind Sonic is now nothing more than an edgy nickelodeon cartoon for little kids. And i mean little kids, younger than 10. Because only a very young child would be impressed by that kind of edginess and serious tone with these ridiculous characters (let's not even mention Sonic's friends).

Even Mario games with all the "yahoos" and lightheartedness seem much more mature to me than modern Sonic. Because at least Mario doesn't take itself too seriously and doesn't try to impress you with it's dark/edgy tone. And as an adult, i appreciate that.
I mean it's not like if the cartoons existed back then and people would base their idea of Sonic on that of the cartoons wich also featured Sonic with an edgy teen voice, to me Sonic's voice is like Mario's voice, it fits the character and it's identity perfectly.

i also think even the 2000's have that to an extent, the only edgy games were Shadow and Sonic 06, and the latter sucked balls, but there was still some humor and charm despite the darker storylines.

there's a lot of adults in like their 20's who love sonic's story and characters, if anything the newer games' attempts at being lighthearted are more like a nickelodeon cartoon for 5 year olds than the adventure games wich had a tone more akin to say an Anime like Digimon or Dragon Ball.
 

AzafuseYugi

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Apr 20, 2021
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maybe im getting very heated over this debate but honestly i despise it when people try to discredit Sonic's genuine attempts at being cool, and having good storytelling simply because it's for kids, just the blind hate for Sonic after the genesis era is one of my most hated things about the gaming community. when i grew up after the 90's, sure i played Sonic 1, 2, CD & 3 in a collection, but i grew up with the darker Sonic, and when i was a kid i loved it, i just loved moments like Tails growing as a person and believing in himself, Shadow redeeming himself after wrongly trying to destroy humanity, or Eggman destroying the moon to show his power.

it was that 2000's anime edgyness that made Sonic way more appealing than Mario or anyother mascot to me. sure i still think Mario, Banjo, Spyro, Crash or Rayman are all very fun but Sonic will always be one of those things that's special to me and i always dreamed of seeing a proper Sonic anime/action cartoon without a little 10 year old kid slowing things down (looking at you Sonic X) such as a continuation of the OVA for example.