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[blitzcloud]

Ding ding ding. Book piracy has been around since the dawn of the printing press yet people still write books. Go figure.

Yeah, I totally saw Harry Pawtah yesterday sold on the streets. Come on, piracy existed, but before reading books on a screen/books on pdf existed, it was simply photocopies togheter like messy schoolnotes mostly.

It's not even on the same level. A game is a 100% exact copy at no cost, not even effort of de-paging or go page by page is needed.

 

[codecow]

No. If I download a random game without paying for it, the devs won't notice. They don't suffer from it.

You could say they do suffer from it, because they don't receive my money. But I wouldn't spend any money on it anyway. So nothing has changed. Because I already spend all my money I can to buying games I like.

This is how I thought when I was growing up. I spent all my money on games, and when I didn't have money for PC, C64, etc... games due to spending it all on console stuff I'd pirate them.

Did anyone lose a sale from me taking those games, it's possible. On C64 almost for sure that is the case even though I ended up buying a fair amount of disks for that platform.

I can tell you that as a developer I watch how people are pirating games that I have worked on and I have to say I'm not a fan of it. Let's say 5m people download something you did and if they were not able to maybe a small percentage would buy it. At 10%, 5%, even 2.5% that would be a significant amount of money.

What is the real number, who knows? But there is a number and it is probably greater than zero.

Downloading a game is not the same as me going into your house and grabbing a ps3 game from your desk.

Also true, the ps3 game itself has value in the physical form, for example you could sell it on eBay or trade it at a store.

It's the same as people used to do in the 80's & 90's when they used cassettes to record music from the radio. OMG THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE MUSIC THEY MUST BE STEALING!!!!

This is not true. The copy from the radio will have a lower quality than what you would buy in the store as a tape or record, so it is not equivalent. The game is the same, so once you have the copy there is no reason to buy it other than your own moral code.

 

[ymmv]

That's kind of my point.
lack of piracy hasn't seemed to drastically increase PS3 game sales.

It would be very enlightening to know how PS3 games sales fared in Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Asia after the PS3 was hacked. That would be definite proof if piracy has effect on games sales.

 

[Emerson]

Right. This is why XBLA is great, every game released has a trial. Steam's demo section is abysmal, and the less said about PSN the better.

On bigger titles a demo should be mandatory too. Unless publishers like the 'ignorance is bliss, people will buy it off PR reviews, piracy is to blame' stance.

So fucking true. This requirement on XBLA will probably go down as one of the smartest things Microsoft has ever done. The number of arcade games I've bought thanks to a trial, but would never have even considered buying without a demo, is staggering.

The fact that other digital services don't have the same requirement is incredible to me.

 

[MMaRsu]

So fucking true. This requirement on XBLA will probably go down as one of the smartest things Microsoft has ever done. The number of arcade games I've bought thanks to a trial, but would never have even considered buying without a demo, is staggering.

The fact that other digital services don't have the same requirement is incredible to me.

Yup, trial for each game is so goddamn smart. Although I guess it just makes sense to do it, other companies werent as smart.

 

[Erebus]

Nicely said.

 

[StuBurns]

Piracy is certainly a complex issue, morally I don't see any significant difference between renting or buying used, than pirating it, the publisher gets nothing in those three scenarios. I also don't really see the issue with pirating something you otherwise own. If you bought the Orange Box on 360, then later wanted to play it on PC, if you cared enough pirate it over just buying it on Steam, I wouldn't judge the person.

When it comes to older generations and emulators I absolutely don't care. While the GAF rules require you to pretend you ripped your own SMB3 and BIOS, even if you have those games, that effort is truly wasted with the ease of using a torrent for them.

I see a lot of gray areas with game piracy, I see almost none with 'stealing'.

 

[Theonik]

It would be very enlightening to know how PS3 games sales fared in Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Asia after the PS3 was hacked. That would be definite proof if piracy has effect on games sales.

Yes, though I'm not sure if such data really exists in these regions.

 

[Zeppelin]

McMillen believes that the more people who steal his games, the more will eventually buy them. He sees piracy as nothing more than a huge sampling exercise. "If the game gets pirated heavily, if it's a good game that people really like, they're going to either buy it eventually or they're going to tell other people about it. Either way it's just going to come back to a sale."

Er... no? They won't. I know I didn't when I was into piracy many years ago. Neither do my friends who are still heavely into pirating (which is, sadly, pretty much everyone I know). If you have the possibility to download fucking everything for free and don't care much about the consequences (maybe because you're somewhat of a casual gamer, maybe just because you're a dick) I don't think a lot of people are likely go "hey, I really like this game so I better buy it so these guys can make another one." More likely: download it, beat it (if even that) and then move on to the next thing that looks somewhat interesting.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

There are still other factors you have to consider, and that this is just a single case, and not by any means a blanket view of what piracy does.

I do think that when devs complain a lot about piracy I am hearing people who are letting their own general frustrations out on something that they can complain about without offending anyone who matters. Namely, other devs will nod their heads.

The way I see it, indie development is a knife edge business where you either think positively, work hard and get lucky or fail. No safety net. Complaining about piracy was them thinking negatively, giving them a reason for not working harder (although I bet they did work hard) and making bad luck for themselves. It might be a very good game but Titan Quest did not seem to be doing something really new, even superficially, I wondered why I should buy this when I had Guild Wars. No great positive community buzz around it like more recent successful indie games.

 

[Emerson]

Piracy is certainly a complex issue, morally I don't see any significant difference between renting or buying used, than pirating it, the publisher gets nothing in those three scenarios. I also don't really see the issue with pirating something you otherwise own. If you bought the Orange Box on 360, then later wanted to play it on PC, if you cared enough pirate it over just buying it on Steam, I wouldn't judge the person.

When it comes to older generations and emulators I absolutely don't care. While the GAF rules require you to pretend you ripped your own SMB3 and BIOS, even if you have those games, that effort is truly wasted with the ease of using a torrent for them.

I see a lot of gray areas with game piracy, I see almost none with 'stealing'.

Agreed with all of this. Back in 2005 or 2006 I got banned from Bethesda's forums for saying I'd pirate Oblivion for PC after buying it for 360. In retrospect that was an absolutely idiotic thing to say, and the worst part is that I never even did it.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I love it when people justify stealing by saying it doesn't count because it's digital.

it's not stealing

 

[Grisby]

Well, thats a shit statement to make. Their game was small and not on the cost level of something like Crysis.

Some of their statements regarding DRM are true but its still a crappy thing to admitting pirating and not sounding like you give a shit when its one of the big things hurting the industry.

I bought the SMB on the xbox and thats the last game I buy from them.

 

[mclem]

it's not stealing

I think this is a wonderful time to reintroduce the word "Twocking"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWOC

 

[commish]

it's not stealing

Oh, let's not have this argument for the 934th time on gaf.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Well it's up to you

You can pirate a game, sure, we won't stop you

But if you don't support us financially, you're one more step toward us not being able to work on any more games and having to either leave the industry or die in the streets

So the question becomes

Do you feel what we're worked on is worth anything

And do you feel a need to support that

unfortunately I think most people don't consider this at all, if they can get their little jimmy a flashcart and 120938 games on it they will.

it's not stealing

depriving the creator of owed money then.


and yes if you've downloaded something then you owe them money, even if you didn't enjoy it. That's just an excuse to justify it to themselves.

 

[Dizzy]

I don't agree at all. I've posted on forums before where people are downloading everything for 360 and Wii, and they NEVER buy games because to them....what's the incentive? if they liked Gears 1, why go out and buy Gears 2 when they can download it like they did with the first?


I can kind of understand if you're product is $5, for such a small price some pirates do seem to cave in at times for whatever reason but you're never gonna get these people to pay $60 for something they can get for free.

 

[Orayn]

Well, thats a shit statement to make. Their game was small and not on the cost level of something like Crysis.

Some of their statements regarding DRM are true but its still a crappy thing to admitting pirating and not sounding like you give a shit when its one of the big things hurting the industry.

I bought the SMB on the xbox and thats the last game I buy from them.

You know what else is hurting the industry? Bad games at unreasonable price points, especially when they have multi-million dollar marketing budgets. I find it hard to sympathize with developers and publishers who give consumers disappointing games at $60, then salt the wound when they treat the legitimate consumers like criminals.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I don't agree at all. I've posted on forums before where people are downloading everything for 360 and Wii, and they NEVER buy games because to them....what's the incentive? if they liked Gears 1, why go out and buy Gears 2 when they can download it like they did with the first?


I can kind of understand if you're product is $5, for such a small price some pirates do seem to cave in at times for whatever reason but you're never gonna get these people to pay $60 for something they can get for free.

what frustrates me more about those kind of people is when they MOCK you for buying it, like pirating it somehow makes them SUPERIOR, its like "ok asshole if everyone freeloaded there would be NO GEARS 3, so id appreciate you just say thank you to people like me, for help generating revenue for the game inspite of freeloaders like yourself, and move along."

 

[Blackface]

There are research reports that suggest both positive and negative effects for various media. There is not enough conclusive evidence for giving one true answer. I would advise you to stop with your strawman attacks since you don't seem to appreciate receiving the same treatment in return.

From what I have seen, virtually every single industry that piracy affects is at all time highs in terms of profit making. Even the music industry. Although the ultra-mega "super-stars" are not selling as many hard-copies. If you combine Itunes and various other ways to get music, they are selling more on a song per song basis. Indie bands also make boat loads more then they did in the 70's,80's and 90's.

 

[malfcn]

Yah? How much more money is spent trying to prevent piracy than is actually "lost"

 

[Blackface]

I don't agree at all. I've posted on forums before where people are downloading everything for 360 and Wii, and they NEVER buy games because to them....what's the incentive? if they liked Gears 1, why go out and buy Gears 2 when they can download it like they did with the first?


I can kind of understand if you're product is $5, for such a small price some pirates do seem to cave in at times for whatever reason but you're never gonna get these people to pay $60 for something they can get for free.

That is a niche group of people. Most people pirating don't make a "hobby" out of it, or go to forums bragging about it. They do it because it's free. It then lends to more copies being purchased. If you go out of your way to mod or change the firmware on a console, then you are not the normal person who pirates.

If people who pirate don't buy the things they pirate. Then that means one of two things.

A) The entertainment industry is actually three times the size everyone thinks it is. Which of course is obviously not the case.

or

B) Some people who pirate do actually buy legit copies/go to see shows/buy merch.

 

[koji]

If your game is good enough a lot of people will buy it. It's not that hard.

 

[ShdwDrake]

That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue. They're giving people way too much credit when they believe that someone that just got something for free will then turn around and pay for it just because they liked it.

I their case it's probably true. The PC version sold a bit more than the 360 version if I remember correctly.

I have friends that pirate games and I would play them and their places and if I liked it I would check and see if its on steam. If its on Steam and the price is reasonable its bought.

 

[Pranay]

For me difference between piracy and buying a used game is that when i buy a used game from another guy im giving him money in return and this money encourages him to buy a new game.

Many gamers here in India [ where piracy is a lot] cant afford console games prefer buying used games as an alternative rather then pirating it.

 

[angular graphics]

I their case it's probably true. The PC version sold a bit more than the 360 version if I remember correctly.

I have friends that pirate games and I would play them and their places and if I liked it I would check and see if its on steam. If its on Steam and the price is reasonable its bought.

Actually it sold double the amount of copies on the PC!

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/04/07/super-meat-boy-dashes-toward-600-000-copies-sold/

Sales on Xbox Live are close to 200,000, while Steam leads with nearly 400,000.

 

[blitzcloud]

If you bought the Orange Box on 360, then later wanted to play it on PC, if you cared enough pirate it over just buying it on Steam, I wouldn't judge the person

And that's why i loved ps3/pc portal 2 experiment. But people felt like exploiting it and gloat about how they got portal 2 legally for $5. The consumer is the worst enemy of the consumer.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.

Surely, as the creator of the content and an 'artist', it's within Team Meat's right to display a "contrarian" attitude if they want to.

You can't say it harms developers if the developers themselves are saying it doesn't.

 

[The Lamonster]

IGN is censoring the word "shit?"

what the fuck

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

"Hey guys we're on your side!! Fuck those big corporations who want to stop you getting your game on!"

It's all positioning bullshit. Team Meat wouldn't exist without paying customers so it's disgusting that they choose to shit on them by endorsing people downloading their game for free.

They aren't shitting on some elite group, they're vocalizing realities in the market.

This is not true. The copy from the radio will have a lower quality than what you would buy in the store as a tape or record, so it is not equivalent. The game is the same, so once you have the copy there is no reason to buy it other than your own moral code.

Right, perhaps sometimes it's better as well, hm?

 

[blitzcloud]

Surely, as the creator of the content and an 'artist', it's within Team Meat's right to display a "contrarian" attitude if they want to.

You can't say it harms developers if the developers themselves are saying it doesn't.

Yeah, developers that pirate too, you forgot that tiny detail. Saying they pirate and condone piracy is nothing good, to be honest.

But see this argument being used to disqualify anti-piracy arguments. "the creator of some one hit wonder said it's right and he pirates. So it's right and deal with it!"

 

[shintoki]

They are definitely correct about responding to it with hampering DRM or restrictions, just hurts your bottom more than what Piracy does alone. I won't buy an Ubisoft title that uses the online connection, nor will I buy Risen till its dirt cheap with the 3 installs only. DRM can work, Steam is DRM. But it also provides unlimited installs on unlimited PC, community features, easy updates, etc. Ones like TAGES are just annoying which offer absolutely nothing in return other than "You have 2 installs left"

But at the same time, saying how companies against it are old and thinking its marketing? Well it worked for you. You made a game people talked about and put it on sale many times for only a few bucks. Its much easier to take that jump than a 40-50$ one. Piracy is still an issue regardless. But Valve said it best, "Pirates are not our customers".

 

[Orayn]

Yah? How much more money is spent trying to prevent piracy than is actually "lost"

The hard part is that this is usually impossible to quantify. However, I have a pretty cool non-game example.

 

[Ranger X]

No. Piracy is going to happen anyway, either embrace it and get the most out of it like Team Meat does or go cry in a corner.

No. Many people are trying to find solutions and this is the way to go. Also, there is always ways of evolution, making people better. If that wasn't the case, we'd still be barbarian.
If it was about embracing stealing (therefore embracing crime anyways) then it seems nobody gets it! There's security in every store, security agents and police everywhere! I suppose the society really doesn't get it eh?

Be careful; suggesting that somebody pirates is a bannable offense here AFAIK.

It's not a "you" in the litteral sense.

 

[StuBurns]

And that's why i loved ps3/pc portal 2 experiment. But people felt like exploiting it and gloat about how they got portal 2 legally for $5. The consumer is the worst enemy of the consumer.

Quite true, that's why I used the Orange Box as the example too.

It's not clear cut, porting costs money, the resulting sales say something about the health of a platform, I'm not saying buy it once then rip it off, but I certainly see why someone would feel an entitlement to that content.

Much like pirating a film when you own the BluRay. I'm not even sure BluRay's can be ripped, but maybe you have a stand alone player for your TV, but not one on your computer, I don't see the harm in pirating in that instance. Same with CDs if you don't want to rip your own, or if it leaks early and you're going to buy the album anyway.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Wow, very bold and, to a point, true statements. I mean, we can't really use a single example like this as a case to say "hey, piracy is okay!" because they would have to reproduce the results again, but it's intriguing to say the least.

This age of digital releases says a lot, really, because I will see a LOT of people donate to otherwise free projects BECAUSE they want to support what they use and want to see it made better (case in point: various Android ROM developers) even though it's free to the end user. This is a good case taken to a further extreme.

Frankly, the only piracy that I hear of that is truly upsetting is when people ONLY ever pirate everything. They modded their DC/PSone/PS2/whatever day one and never bought a single game and only pay for the hardware for them to use it, not supporting the develoeprs of the games they so enjoyed playing.

 

[fabprems]

As much as I love the Team Meat, they just should stop telling sh#t and get their game on Mac as they promise. I've already bought it on steam, and I still can't play it 8 months later, while pirates enjoy their cyder port....

 

[carbonbased]

I don't agree at all. I've posted on forums before where people are downloading everything for 360 and Wii, and they NEVER buy games because to them....what's the incentive? if they liked Gears 1, why go out and buy Gears 2 when they can download it like they did with the first?

then they miss out on the entire online experience. sure, all some people care about is the single player campaign. that could just as easily be experienced through renting or borrowing a friend's copy however. i don't see people fervently rallying against those practices and they all deny money to the people who worked on the game just the same.

This is not true. The copy from the radio will have a lower quality than what you would buy in the store as a tape or record, so it is not equivalent. The game is the same, so once you have the copy there is no reason to buy it other than your own moral code.

i am going to quote this great post again, because the point it makes refutes what you are saying and will be the answer to studios struggling with piracy in the future:

Is the choice really equal? Do pirates get access to infinite hassle-free downloads, access from anywhere in the world, regular updates, leaderboards, comparing times with friends, Super Meat World...?

With services like Steam, legit customers normally have a vastly superior experience to pirates. That is how you fight piracy -- by providing a better product to legit customers, not through broken DRM schemes.

 

[JaseC]

IGN is censoring the word "shit?"

what the fuck

It's a step in the right direction. Soon enough, in a continued effort to mask content that may potentially insult their readership, they will begin to censor entire articles.

 

[Slavik81]

Ding ding ding. Book piracy has been around since the dawn of the printing press yet people still write books. Go figure.

That might not be a great example. That's why copyright was invented in the first place. Of course, back then it was to protect authors from publishers, but still.

 

[ymmv]

what frustrates me more about those kind of people is when they MOCK you for buying it, like pirating it somehow makes them SUPERIOR, its like "ok asshole if everyone freeloaded there would be NO GEARS 3, so id appreciate you just say thank you to people like me, for help generating revenue for the game inspite of freeloaders like yourself, and move along."

There's no use arguing with them. When you counter that widespread piracy makes it impossible for developers and publishers to continue making games, they answer they don't care that they go out of business. Or they should make cheaper games if the current blockbuster model is too expensive too maintain. But they still won't buy games. They go on pirating until there are no games made anymore.

They always have lots of "reasons" why buying games doesn't make sense. Publishers actually want people to download and play their games for free because it's the best advertising. Games are too expensive, games aren't good enough, games aren't long enough, etc etc. It's hard to find out what games are actually worth buying because the goalposts keep changing. I've seen discussions about games that pirates played for months on end where people complained it wasn't worth their money because if it was a good game you'd play it for at least a year. The only time pirates do buy games is when there's no way around it (online multiplayer).

 

[Refreshment.01]

This is actually one of those weird pirate mentalities that I've witnessed. I know people who will just download every single new release regardless of what it is. At best, they'll install it, play for 5 minutes, and then never touch it again. A lot of pirates simply "collect" these downloads and have no intention of really investing time into them. I don't understand this myself, but it is very common.

From my own small sample, I can definitely say that, when a game they really care about comes along they will end up buying it. Most of the games they pirate are not titles they would ever purchase as they have no real intention of playing them. I realize it's hard not to view it as a lost sale, but it really is not.

Hmmmnnnn... On the other side, for example, you got the guys who buy a ton of games on some Digital Download service just to let 'em rot in the backlog.

2nd bold: What about priorities and budget? You got certain amount of cash to purchase games but not enough to buy all the games you are interested in. So you buy the one you are most interested in and pirate the others.

A lot of smart people posting but some of them with an idealistic vision of the consumer and piracy that doesn't completely hold truth in practice.

I see a lot of gray areas with game piracy, I see almost none with 'stealing'.

Lot's of gray areas and hypocrisy too.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

That might not be a great example. That's why copyright was invented in the first place. Of course, back then it was to protect authors from publishers, but still.

Well, sure. The problem is that copyright by it's own definition was meant to "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". Most people now take this to mean "keep me in business despite massive changes in the market."

 

[LuchaShaq]

Paranoid companies who assure that pirates get a better experience than a paying customer will never get me to buy their games unless they are used or 5$ on a steam sale. Always on DRM/project 10$/multiplayer codes etc, not getting much from me.

 

[Htown]

I'm pretty sure Team Meat and the Recettear dev who posted in this thread are not advocating piracy. The point is that piracy is going to happen no matter what, and it's not something you have to worry about. Make a great game, put it out, don't punish your paying customers for the actions of the pirates, and if (when) people download your game illegally, don't flip out about it.

 

[UrbanRats]

The hard part is that this is usually impossible to quantify. However, I have a pretty cool non-game example.

Now this is interesting.

 

[Refreshment.01]

So from that one copy of MHFU my friend pirated, Capcom sold four copies of MHFU and two copies of MH3.

Not saying situations like this are common, but it does happen.

The likely scenario is that all of you would've ended up pirating the game.

Not saying that it happened like that

It's not a comparison, it's an analogy.

There's no other way I can think of to explain to you why people pirate products that aren't terribly interested in and would never buy them in the first place.

Except is not always like that. The majority of people who pirate are very interested in the game, now more than ever due to the excess offer of games.

 

[blitzcloud]

Now this is interesting.

...anecdotal data

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

Now this is interesting.

Here's another similar example: http://www.switched.com/2011/02/11/neil-gaiman-piracy-leads-to-more-book-sales/

Neil Gaiman, author of the 'Sandman' graphic novels and best-seller 'American Gods,' talked about the pirating of his titles to OpenRight Group. Apparently, sales went up in Russia as his books were being pirated.

 

[MMaRsu]

IGN is censoring the word "shit?"

what the fuck

I know right? I couldn't f@cking believe it!

Sh@tc@ck!