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[hamchan]

https://twitter.com/Steam_Spy/status/768793818296639489?lang=en

Steam Spy ‏@Steam_Spy 10m10 minutes ago
Techland requested the removal of their games as well.

Should I just stop honoring these requests?

Steam Spy ‏@Steam_Spy 4m4 minutes ago
I believe in building a tool that is useful for the game developers.

Steam Spy ‏@Steam_Spy 4m4 minutes ago
In the last 1,5 years there were no incidents where developer was hurt because of his data being exposed on Steam Spy.

Steam Spy
‏@Steam_Spy
So, let's see what happens if I restore all the removed games at Steam Spy.

If you don't know what SteamSpy is, it's a pretty awesome site that collects data from Steam profiles and uses it to estimate the number of owners each game has. Developers have requested to remove the data before and SteamSpy has complied but now it seems he's getting annoyed by it.

I'm with him to just ignore the requests from now on. I don't find there to be a valid reason to hide this sales information from the public, unless you're the KSP devs living in a bad place where being rich can get you harmed.

EDIT: Looks like all the data is back. Paradox owner data is here now: http://steamspy.com/dev/Paradox+Development+Studio

Good post from Nirolak:

Let's do a quick review of everyone who requested their data be taken down.

Squad (Kerbal Space Program): Paid their staff nigh zero wages, frequently fired them, game had sold 1.5 million copies at a high ASP. Their request was done under the cover of asserting that Mexican drug cartels would murder all their staff if their data was on SteamSpy because a drug cartel that was sophisticated enough to use SteamSpy wouldn't be able to figure out Kerbal Space Program was a success otherwise.

Paradox: Had an IPO. Was very concerned that investors wouldn't be able to understand the three day sales lag on SteamSpy, and reported the numbers were very inaccurate anyway. Proceeded to announce sales numbers a few days later that were basically exactly the same as SteamSpy right before it shut off. Given every public company has an IR department that has to deal with continual investor questions, they're either completely not ready for the IPO they're doing and their stock will be totally fucked, or they're actually just trying to hide any future potential underperformances.

Nicalis: Probably one of the less successful indie publishers. Presumably don't want their data shown so that indie developers can't easily compare the success rates of their potential publishers and come to the conclusion they may prefer Devolver Digital or Adult Swim.

Techland: Getting into game publishing, and never cared before. Presumably they're concerned for the same same reason as Nicalis unless they're planning an imminent IPO.

Also, to be clear, these are publisher wishes, not developer wishes. We see basically no individual developers except Squad wanting their data pulled.

If all the major, gigantic publishers see zero issue with SteamSpy, and the individual developers don't, and this is only an issue for a very select number of small time publishers, I'm really having trouble imagining a scenario where SteamSpy is actually problematic for anyone.

 

[Sendou]

I think the real news here is that all the data that was previously censored on the site is now visible to everyone.

 

[Ultimate_Trainer]

I think the real news here is that all the data that was previously censored on the site is now visible to everyone.

I quickly looked up Badrats since that was hidden for a while and never knew it only sold half a million. I kinda expected more.

 

[Some Nobody]

https://twitter.com/Steam_Spy/status/768793818296639489?lang=en









If you don't know what SteamSpy is, it's a pretty awesome site that collects data from Steam profiles and uses it to estimate the number of owners each game has. Developers have requested to remove the data before and SteamSpy has complied but now it seems he's getting annoyed by it.

I'm with him to just ignore the requests from now on. I don't find there to be a valid reason to hide this sales information from the public, unless you're the KSP devs living in a bad place where being rich can get you harmed.

Wait, what??

 

[Zombie James]

Steam Spy ‏@Steam_Spy 4m4 minutes ago
I believe in building a tool that is useful for the game developers.

Then shouldn't you respect developers' wishes?

 

[novabolt]

Maybe a buyout is happening at TLand?

 

[hans_castorp]

Wait, what??

Mexico if I remember correctly

 

[g11]

That seems really bizarre that they'd care enough to ask for the data to be taken down. I can't imagine many people if any base whether or not to make a purchase on how many other people have the game. Maybe with an MP-only game...

 

[SomTervo]

Then shouldn't you respect developers' wishes?

I guess he's respecting the 99.999% who are evidently happy with SteamSpy doing its thing?

 

[MassiveNights]

I understand developers not wanting this kind of information out there.

He might think he is doing them good generally but if specific devs think it's doing harm to them he should honour their request.

Doing harm doesn't automatically mean loss of sales by the way. Business information is valuable when you're negotiating with different people etc.

I know it's nice for fans to see too but people don't have divine right to this information IMO.

Why do the public need to know sales information? It doesn't make sense. We don't have ownership over these companies or their revenue data because we like video games.

 

[fvng]

What is steam spy, can we get a recap of events here please

 

[OnimaruXLR]

Is sales data considered confidential? I mean, I imagine that the product people and whoever is distributing it probably want to keep that info between themselves, but if you can use shenannigans to figure it out and make the numbers public... it's not like there's legal action that can be taken, right?

 

[OnionPowder]

Why would KSP sales affect the workers making peanuts in Mexico?

 

[SomTervo]

What is steam spy, can we get a recap of events here please

Literally in the OP, mate.

 

[Bluth54]

Personally I feel like he shouldn't honor these requests and publish the results for everyone unless Valve asks him to honor the requests. Valve makes the data available after all.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

unless you're the KSP devs living in a bad place where being rich can get you harmed.

If I were them the first thing I'd do is use my new-found riches to GTFO of that place.

 

[Dusk Golem]

I have mixed feelings on it in an overall sense, but I also do think that sales data being private info for consumer entertainment media, a market with competition and much to pull from, is a silly move. There is definitely at this point in time much better records of other entertainment media sales, box office results, etc. Digital media is the thing that's kind of lagging behind in this case, and while I wouldn't go as far as to say people have the right to know, I do find it a bit silly to keep that info close to one's chest.

 

[BigEmil]

Well there is no law or anything like that, that says sales figures cannot be shown so I think he should deny all requests to take them down.

 

[YianGaruga]

I understand developers not wanting this kind of information out there.

He might think he is doing them good generally but if specific devs think it's doing harm to them he should honour their request.

Doing harm doesn't automatically mean loss of sales by the way. Business information is valuable when you're negotiating with different people etc.

I know it's nice for fans to see too but people don't have divine right to this information IMO.

Why do the public need to know sales information? It doesn't make sense.

and publishers don't have divine right to hide the information. Steam Spy is using public data and extrapolating from that. Theoretically anyone could do it themselves

It's not like he is hacking steam to reveal confidential data

If pubs want ownership data hidden, they should ask Valve to remove their games from profile pages. Let's see how that works

 

[hollomat]

Why would KSP sales affect the workers making peanuts in Mexico?

This. KSP completely ripped off the employees who made the game for them. The reason they want their sales hidden is more so they can continue ripping off their employees without the employees knowing how successful the company actually is.

Edit: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1215499

 

[molnizzle]

Yeah, if there wasn't a precedent with the data being available for every other type of media it'd be one thing. But it's weird that I can know the worldwide box office take of every movie ever made but still can't tell roughly how many people downloaded Uncharted 4. SteamSpy is a step in the right direction.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I'm all for this knowledge to be public.

 

[kadotsu]

Techland collects player data, so I feel they shouldn't complain about data collected on them.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Then shouldn't you respect developers' wishes?

Not necessarily, one point doesn't correlate with the other.

It's useful for all developers, that much is clear. It's just that, in addition to that, it's problematic for a few of them in their relationships with distributors, shareholders, etc, even if having a tool to see the market's trends is useful.

 

[TheSeks]

Then shouldn't you respect developers' wishes?

And what wish is that? How is hiding how many accounts that own the game harming developers?

Also Techland is a AAA developer now, they shouldn't need to hide their amount of users.

 

[kswiston]

Techland collects player data, so I feel they shouldn't complain about data collected on them.

Every single one of these companies, outside of the smallest indie devs, collects player data.

I agree that this expectation that the customer base is free to datamine, while your own (public) data should be blackboxed, is ridiculous.

Also, we get actual box office numbers for every single film to hit theatres in the US/Canada, and the film industry hasn't collapsed in the past 100+ years. I am sure that the gaming industry can survive Steamspy. No one bitches about NPD and others doing the same thing at retail. I don't see how sticking the independently collected results behing a $100k paywall makes a difference.

 

[JaseC]

Personally I feel like he shouldn't honor these requests and publish the results for everyone unless Valve asks him to honor the requests. Valve makes the data available after all.

That's the thing, though: ignoring requests from publishers is just going to lead to them knocking on Valve's door. Evidently Valve itself isn't fussed about SteamSpy as data for its own games was never hidden, but it will change its tune if publishers begin demanding that something be done.

 

[Lister]

That's the thing, though: ignoring requests from publishers is just going to lead to them knocking on Valve's door. Evidently Valve itself isn't fussed about SteamSpy as data for its own games was never hidden, but it will change its tune if publishers begin demanding that something be done.

It was out of this fear that that SteamSpy was honoring take down requests. I guess he's fed up though.

We'll see how Valve responds.

 

[LewieP]

I think its a neat data resource, but it also inspires a lot of dangerously misinformed analysis from people who don't understand the data, and are unable to place the data into a historical context. From the dude who runs it as much as anyone else.

There was the whole "Indiepocalypse" nonsense, which was largely unfounded scaremongering, and people not really understanding how the long tail works with critically acclaimed indie games, especially in relation to bundles and discounts.

It's cool to be able to see this data, although obviously everyone should be mindful of the significant margin for error, but I wouldn't personally feel I was missing out massively if it went away.

I imagine Valve will add a button for devs to toggle opt in/opt out, and say that they are not going to have anything to do with moderating this stuff in a hands on manner. Will require a bit of work but it's probably the easiest solution for them.

Edit: There are countless business reasons for not wanting sales data to be public. You can debate the merit of these reasons, but I doubt it's something Valve would want to take a hard line against publishers who make them lots of money just because of a not especially convincing public interest argument.

 

[Gator86]

If it's publically available information, publish every bit of it. Transparency is great. It's not like the the devs/pubs have your interests in mind in terms of information sharing. Why should we care about theirs?

 

[Hektor]

I know it's nice for fans to see too but people don't have divine right to this information IMO.

Why do the public need to know sales information? It doesn't make sense. We don't have ownership over these companies or their revenue data because we like video games.

The thing with this specific site steamspy is, that we kinda do have the right. It's not doing anyhing illegal, it isn't leaking any inside informations or similar things.

The tool works by looking at public accessible data ie public steam profiles, analyzes the game ownership of a few thousand or million accounts and extrapolates from there unto the entire userbase.

 

[stuminus3]

Next stop, Valve just shuts the whole thing down.

Good work, SteamSpy guy.

 

[YianGaruga]

I think its a neat data resource, but it also inspires a lot of dangerously misinformed analysis from people who don't understand the data, and are unable to place the data into a historical context. From the dude who runs it as much as anyone else.

This is the case for literally every piece of data ever

 

[Zombie James]

And what wish is that? How is hiding how many accounts that own the game harming developers?

Also Techland is a AAA developer now, they shouldn't need to hide their amount of users.

I'm didn't say anything about harming developers. I just find it silly that the owner would say this is a service for developers but then not respect a developer's request. Thats all.

 

[Allforce]

I hadn't ever really perused SteamSpy before but just browing around I gotta say goddamn that Sean Murray guy walked away with like 30 million dollars in the last 2 weeks just from No Mans Sky Steam sales alone. And that's after Valve took their 30% cut.

 

[TheSeks]

Owners: 1,526,613 ± 31,420

Huh. Not bad for Squad, despite the rocky development road and drama around them.

Spoiler

GET YOUR BANNED INFO WHILE IT'S HOT, LADS

 

[kiguel182]

He should just respect what developers want. Just remove the data.

 

[JasoNsider]

Ehhhh I don't really feel too strongly one way or another, but I will say that it absolutely could harm developers. Hell, I might even go so far as say it harms any developer who didn't sell all that many units on their last game. Public "failures" (relative depending on who you ask, team size, etc.) where this all used to be discrete between a developer and their partners.

I'm sort of ok with open data, but maybe that's because our games have done ok. If our games were flops I'd probably not be as happy about it. "Just get better" and all that, but it does feel like previously discrete information being shared with public. Sort of like if you could pull up sales numbers for the local stores around you. That's between them and maybe their partners or distributors.

Again, I don't feel really strongly about this though. Just saying it's not so black and white.

 

[nynt9]

I'm didn't say anything about harming developers. I just find it silly that the owner would say this is a service for developers but then not respect a developer's request. Thats all.

Well, it is for developers as a whole. If one developer wants to ruin it for everyone then caving to them would harm every other developer.

 

[Turin Turambar]

That's the thing, though: ignoring requests from publishers is just going to lead to them knocking on Valve's door. Evidently Valve itself isn't fussed about SteamSpy as data for its own games was never hidden, but it will change its tune if publishers begin demanding that something be done.

I doubt publishers liked the universal refund system when it was implemented, but they dit it. Maybe Valve will ignore them, they are in a superior position to do it.

 

[LewieP]

This is the case for literally every piece of data ever

But Steam Spy Man's misinformed analysis gets lots of attention.

 

[s_mirage]

That's the thing, though: ignoring requests from publishers is just going to lead to them knocking on Valve's door. Evidently Valve itself isn't fussed about SteamSpy as data for its own games was never hidden, but it will change its tune if publishers begin demanding that something be done.

And if Valve just ignores them too? What are they going to do, pull their games from Steam?

 

[AHA-Lambda]

I'm all for this knowledge to be public.

Same, there's no real reason to keep it hidden.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Why would KSP sales affect the workers making peanuts in Mexico?

Can someone clue me in on what's this KSP business?

As to Steamspy they're not doing anything illegal and only extrapolating from already publicly available data. So haters can just go swivel as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jebusman]

He should just respect what developers want. Just remove the data.

But it's data that is already publically available to anyone willing to do the work.

Literally all it's doing is compiling player profile information, information that is available from anyone who set their profile as Public instead of Private.

So I don't feel like the developers really have much say in this, given that this information has always been available. At most Valve could remove that as part of people's profiles, but the community would likely cause a frenzy over it.

 

[wrowa]

The thing with this specific site steamspy is, that we kinda do have the right. It's doing anyhing illegal, it isn't leaking any inside informations or similar things.

The tool works by looking at public accessible data ie public steam profiles, analyzes the game ownership of a few thousand or million accounts and extrapolates from there unto the entire userbase.

SteamSpy is using Steam APIs in a way they probably weren't meant to be used. As such, Valve could probably shut the site down (by not allowing them to use their APIs) if the site owner doesn't play by Valve's arbitrary rules.

So, whether what he's doing is illegal or not is kinda irrelevant if Valve feels the owner is hurting their business/reputation by not honoring these requests.

 

[pahamrick]

Techland collects player data, so I feel they shouldn't complain about data collected on them.

That's how I feel. A lot of games collect misc user data, they shouldn't bitch when the shoe is reversed using publicly available information.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Ehhhh I don't really feel too strongly one way or another, but I will say that it absolutely could harm developers. Hell, I might even go so far as say it harms any developer who didn't sell all that many units on their last game. Public "failures" (relative depending on who you ask, team size, etc.) where this all used to be discrete between a developer and their partners.

It was also being used by developers with big hits, so their contractors and employers wouldn't know the extent of the success and maybe win funny ideas like ask more money for their work.

 

[Senoculum]

I guess he's respecting the 99.999% who are evidently happy with SteamSpy doing its thing?

Are they "evidently" happy as you say? Or are they merely unaware of the tool's actions? Consider how other developers requested a desist on the tracking info.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Doesn't Steam Spy use publicly available data anyway?