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[Monocle]

I get offended by all sorts of things that aren't necessarily intended to be offensive, yet I don't expect the world to rearrange itself to accommodate my sensitivities. I don't phone up the Academy Awards every time someone thanks God in an acceptance speech.

Muslims who are offended by a pretend floor carving in a video game should take it upon themselves to ignore or avoid the offensive material. It's unreasonable to expect it to be removed. What message is Harada sending by having the stage changed? Surely not one of tolerance. If I tweeted some developer and said that as an atheist I'm strongly opposed to the promotion of religion by prominently displayed Christian iconography, you can bet they wouldn't fall all over themselves to remove all the crosses from their game. More likely, they'd tell me to grow a thicker skin and piss off. And they'd be right. In a world where nearly everything is bound to offend someone, all of us need to be willing to—that's right—tolerate things that incidentally hurt our feelings.

 

[Kurtofan]

I get offended by all sorts of things that aren't necessarily intended to be offensive, yet I don't expect the world to rearrange itself to accommodate my sensitivities. I don't phone up the Academy Awards every time someone thanks God in an acceptance speech.

Muslims who are offended by a pretend floor carving in a video game should take it upon themselves to ignore or avoid the offensive material. It's unreasonable to expect it to be removed. What message is Harada sending by having the stage changed? Surely not one of tolerance. If I tweeted some developer and said that as an atheist I'm strongly opposed to the promotion of religion by prominently displayed Christian iconography, you can bet they wouldn't fall all over themselves to remove all the crosses from their game. More likely, they'd tell me to grow a thicker skin and piss off.

So devs shouldn't correct their mistakes (it's a Saudi Arabia stage, you'd expect it to be accurate) and shouldn't try to be culturally sensitive and accurate because apparently it's unreasonable.

If it was a Muslim that asked to ban Jewish imagery it would match your "ban Christian imagery" example, this does not.

Harada wasn't trying to offend Muslims, in fact I think they were trying to appeal to Muslims by having a Saudi Arabia stage.

 

[Monocle]

So devs shouldn't correct their mistakes (it's a Saudi Arabia stage, you'd expect it to be accurate) and shouldn't try to be culturally sensitive because apparently it's unreasonable.

Yes, that's a perfectly accurate summary of my post. Thanks for reading.

 

[Kurtofan]

Yes, that's a perfectly accurate summary of my post. Thanks for reading.

And the rest of my post?Try to be less condescending.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I wish people would stop telling other people what they should or should not be offended by. Seriously, fuck off with that attitude. They were offended, they told the people in charge they were offended, and they corrected it. He could have ignored it and let him be offended, or he could have made a VERY microscopical change for a (potential) customer that will harm no one in any way shape or form.

That's it. Everyone is happy.

 

[genjiZERO]

Abrahamic religions are too sensitive towards representations of their religions in the media. Islam is far and away the worst culprit, but Christianity does it too. I can think of several videogames that have had to have crosses removed from them (Xenogears and Dragon Quest 7), and let's not forget that Mr. Satan's name was changed to "Hercule" because of offending the sensibilities of Christians. Personally I think it shows a lack of faith that it bothers you so much that you have to bitch and moan about depictions of your religion especially when they are pretty innocuous. It's not like The Passion of the Wii is a real game or anything. I also think it's interesting that Japanese culture has no problem making fun of or treating lightly their own religions (for example, Muramasa or Okami), but in Abrahamic cultures it's like saying "Voldemort" aloud.

 

[Monocle]

And the rest of my post?Try to be less condescending.

No analogy is perfect. Mine is adequate to illustrate my point. I could come up with a different one if you insisted. Maybe something to do with pseudoscience in games, or character stereotypes that implicitly criticize intelligence or science, like the nerd or the mad scientist. But that would be ridiculous. We shouldn't be splitting hairs to clarify an idea that both of us already understand.

I wish people would stop telling other people what they should or should not be offended by. Seriously, fuck off with that attitude. They were offended, they told the people in charge they were offended, and they corrected it. He could have ignored it and let him be offended, or he could have made a VERY microscopical change for a (potential) customer that will harm no one in any way shape or form.

That's it. Everyone is happy.

I'm not happy. I think it's absurd that Islam enjoys special treatment in the art of countries that aren't even Islamic. Why should Muslims be allowed to compel artists to censor themselves? Why should artists capitulate? It's more than a little shady how only Muslims seem to benefit from supposed goodwill gestures toward cultural sensitivity.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Before people over react, what were the tweets like? If they were just letting him know, what's the big deal in that? also it could be Non Muslims pointing it out in the first place.

Remember both sides have the potential to overreact.

 

[Kageshinzo]

Muslims who are offended by a pretend floor carving in a video game should take it upon themselves to ignore or avoid the offensive material. It's unreasonable to expect it to be removed. What message is Harada sending by having the stage changed? Surely not one of tolerance. If I tweeted some developer and said that as an atheist I'm strongly opposed to the promotion of religion by prominently displayed Christian iconography, you can bet they wouldn't fall all over themselves to remove all the crosses from their game. More likely, they'd tell me to grow a thicker skin and piss off. And they'd be right. In a world where nearly everything is bound to offend someone, all of us need to be willing to—that's right—tolerate things that incidentally hurt our feelings.

From what I understand, Muslims are not objecting about the "Allah" carving on the game. They are objecting about the fact that the carving was on the floor and stepped on by the (digital) people. It would be like having the Christian image of Christ or the Virgin Mary or whatever it is you hold sacred and put on the floor to be stepped upon, in-game or not. That is why it's offensive to their sensibilities. I wonder why it's hard for some people to understand this?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

"Grrrrrr pleasant customer-producer relationships make Monocle mad! How dare somebody polite ask for a removal of an image and the creator complying!"

 

[Kayo-kun]

Before people over react, what were the tweets like? If they were just letting him know, what's the big deal in that? also it could be Non Muslims pointing it out in the first place.

Remember both sides have the potential to overreact.

As I said before in this thread, the people don't seem to have overreacted on twitter. There are some people who notified the Tekken devs about it. The overreaction seem to be the one on threads like these where people react at people reacting, which in my mind is an absolute waste of time and alot of pointless whining.

 

[shiptoncraig]

Reading that a Saudi Arabia stage is included to appeal to Muslims, makes me want to see a stage based upon some city in the north of England. Hopefully they wouldn't put the Queen's face on the floor though.

 

[Kurtofan]

I'm not happy. I think it's absurd that Islam enjoys special treatment in the art of countries that aren't even Islamic. Why should Muslims be allowed to compel artists to censor themselves? Why should artists capitulate? It's more than a little shady how only Muslims seem to benefit from supposed goodwill gestures toward cultural sensitivity.

Why are Muslims automatically shady?

They asked him on twitter, they didn't force him or threaten him, what the fuck is wrong with pointing out that something is wrong to the dev and suggesting them to change it if they can?Isn't that the point of Twitter, to talk with famous people directly?

If the dev doesn't want he could have say no.

I hate the idea that being culturally sensitive and trying to please people is "capitulation to Muslim invaders" or some shit.

The Saudi Arabia stage is there to appeal to Muslims, not repel them.

 

[Monocle]

From what I understand, Muslims are not objecting about the "Allah" carving on the game. They are objecting about the fact that the carving was on the floor and stepped on by the (digital) people. It would be like having the Christian image of Christ or the Virgin Mary or whatever it is you hold sacred and put on the floor to be stepped upon, in-game or not. That is why it's offensive to their sensibilities. I wonder why it's hard for some people to understand this?

I understand it perfectly well. I simply think it's a trivial complaint, given the context of the situation. Just because something is sacred to someone doesn't mean it deserves special protection. Nobody has a right not to be offended. Decent people do their best to go out of their way not to offend others, of course, but it's not some legal or moral obligation. And even if it were, artists have a higher obligation to avoid censoring themselves. It's a matter of free speech.

By the way, what's with the person telling Harada that the carving is "very offensive to Muslims"? I'm really not trying to be obtuse here. I honestly think that claiming offense on behalf of "Muslims" is unjustified because it's far too general. I wouldn't want to make a similar blanket claim about the views of atheists, men, or Americans, despite belonging to all of those groups. There are billions of Muslims in the world. Many, I presume, would have no problem with a carving of the name Allah being tread upon by fighting game characters.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

You do understand the irony of you making a big deal out the trivial issue of people making a big deal out of a trivial issue, yes?

Some self-awareness would go a long way.

 

[2San]

There are 99 different names for Allah but I don't think it can be written in that many ways. Provided you're talking strictly Arabic.

Yeah that was it. It's been a while.

 

[Monocle]

You do understand the irony of you making a big deal out the trivial issue of people making a big deal out of a trivial issue, yes?

Some self-awareness would go a long way.

I'm discussing a response to a decorative element in a video game on a video game forum. Please don't try that juvenile "You wouldn't talk about it if it weren't a big deal to you" card. Really now.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'm discussing a response to a decorative element in a video game on a video game forum. Please don't try that juvenile "You wouldn't talk about it if it weren't a big deal to you" card. Really now.

Yes, that's a perfectly accurate summary of my post. Thanks for reading.

 

[Izayoi]

Seriously though, this is getting fucking ridiculous. I really do feel bad for religious people who aren't fucking crazy, it's got to be terrible trying to deal with people who are constantly painting your faith in a bad light.

 

[Monocle]

Yes, that's a perfectly accurate summary of my post. Thanks for reading.

wat u did their, i see it

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

One of these days, a Megaten game will have Allah as the end boss ala YHWH, Demiurge, Loki, Izamami, or Brahman, and it will be GLORIOUS.

 

[Kageshinzo]

I understand it perfectly well. I simply think it's a trivial complaint, given the context of the situation. Just because something is sacred to someone doesn't mean it deserves special protection. Nobody has a right not to be offended. Decent people do their best to go out of their way not to offend others, of course, but it's not some legal or moral obligation. And even if it were, artists have a higher obligation to avoid censoring themselves. It's a matter of free speech.

By the way, what's with the person telling Harada that the carving is "very offensive to Muslims"? I'm really not trying to be obtuse here. I honestly think that claiming offense on behalf of "Muslims" is unjustified because it's far too general. I wouldn't want to make a similar blanket claim about the views of atheists, men, or Americans, despite belonging to all of those groups. There are billions of Muslims in the world. Many, I presume, would have no problem with a carving of the name Allah being tread upon by fighting game characters.

And like I said in an earlier post, unless you have been raised from birth indoctrinated and taught the Muslim faith, you are in no position to declare whether something like this is trivial. It might be trivial to you based on how you were raised, but it might as well be a matter of life and death for some, if not most, of them.

It would also be ill-informed to assume that many Muslims would have no problem about this simply by virtue of their magnitude. Muslims, more than any other religious group, are very serious and devoted about their faith. Almost anyone still prays x number of times a day, facing Mecca. And woe betide anyone who so much as say anything bad about Mohammed.

 

[genjiZERO]

Yes, that's a perfectly accurate summary of my post. Thanks for reading.

This issue has broader ramifications though. It's not like some people weren't killed or 5,000 year-old historical artifacts destroyed few weeks ago for no other reason than they were "offensive to Islam". It may not be the biggest deal - in this particular case - but it's not isolated thing - it's an endemic trend within the Islamic world. If I made a flippant joke like "they should burn down the Japanese embassy over this" it makes sense because of the global context of the issue. Consequently, I don't really think anything Monocle is saying is particularly unreasonable.

And like I said in an earlier post, unless you have been raised from birth indoctrinated and taught the Muslim faith, you are in no position to declare whether something like this is trivial. It might be trivial to you based on how you were raised, but it might as well be a matter of life and death for some, if not most, of them.

It would also be ill-informed to assume that many Muslims would have no problem about this simply by virtue of their magnitude. Muslims, more than any other religious group, are very serious and devoted about their faith. Almost anyone still prays x number of times a day, facing Mecca. And woe betide anyone who so much as say anything bad about Mohammed.

There seems to be a trend within Islam of Islam not respecting other peoples religions. Why should we respect theirs?

 

[Izayoi]

It might be trivial to you based on how you were raised, but it might as well be a matter of life and death for some, if not most, of them.

Isn't that the real problem here? It's okay for someone to be indoctrinated to the point where they become violently offended by a name in a fictional video game in a fictional location that has fictional people stepping on it? We're supposed to just let that go, and bend to their every whim? Give me a fucking break.

 

[2San]

Isn't that the real problem here? It's okay for someone to be indoctrinated to the point where they become violently offended by a name in a fictional video game in a fictional location that has fictional people stepping on it? We're supposed to just let that go, and bend to their every whim? Give me a fucking break.

Nope the real problem here is that people overreact to every single thing Muslims do. They aren't even allowed to be offended anymore. Or even ask questions. Developers aren't allowed to respect Muslims.

Developers are allowed to please other demographics, but Muslims? Nope not allowed.

 

[genjiZERO]

Nope the real problem here is that people overreact to every single thing Muslims do. They aren't even allowed to be offended anymore. Or even ask questions. Developers aren't allowed to respect Muslims.

Developers are allowed to please other demographics, but Muslims? Nope not allowed.

Because when was the last time non-Muslims destroyed historical artifacts simply because those artifacts offended their sensibilities? People call out Islam because there's an endemic problem within it that exists contemporaneously.

 

[Kurtofan]

Isn't that the real problem here? It's okay for someone to be indoctrinated to the point where they become violently offended by a name in a fictional video game in a fictional location that has fictional people stepping on it? We're supposed to just let that go, and bend to their every whim? Give me a fucking break.

No one is getting violent here, at worst people would have boycotted the game.

Because when was the last time non-Muslims destroyed historical artifacts simply because those artifacts offended their sensibilities? People call out Islam because there's an endemic problem within it that exists contemporaneously.

Seriously?I'm sure those people are the same that play video games and tweet.

 

[Taruranto]

Image if the same thing happened with Christian symbolism.

3/4 of existing jrpg would be out of market, ah.

 

[2San]

Because when was the last time non-Muslims destroyed historical artifacts simply because those artifacts offended their sensibilities? People call out Islam because there's an endemic problem within it that exists contemporaneously.

We are talking about Muslims tweeting something to Harada and Harada respecting their wishes. Why are you talking about something else?

 

[Kurtofan]

Image if the same thing happened with Christian symbolism.

3/4 of existing jrpg would be out of market, ah.

JRPGs used to have Christian symbols removed for the Western markets.

 

[Izayoi]

Nope the real problem here is that people overreact to every single thing Muslims do. They aren't even allowed to be offended anymore. Or even ask questions. Developers aren't allowed to respect Muslims.

Developers are allowed to please other demographics, but Muslims? Nope not allowed.

As far as I'm concerned developers can do whatever the fuck they want. There are tons of Japanese games which shit all over Christianity (as mentioned by Keiichi) and you don't see those getting changed because Christians are offended by them. Frankly, I find the idea that something needs to be changed because it offended somebody ridiculous. Imagine if every game someone got offended by was changed. Violent games would practically cease to exist! No one group of people should be afforded the power to censor whatever they want because it offends them.

No one is getting violent here, at worst people would have boycotted the game.

Violently offended != physically violent.

JRPGs used to have Christian symbols removed for the Western markets.

Mainly by the developers, and not because of an outcry. And like you said, used to. Aside from DMC4 I can't think of many recent prominent examples.

 

[genjiZERO]

We are talking about Muslims tweeting something to Harada and Harada respecting their wishes. Why are you talking about something else?

Seriously?I'm sure those people are the same that play video games and tweet.

Because it's about context. This isn't an isolated event. To focus the issue on one petty example ignores what the real issue is.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

As far as I'm concerned developers can do whatever the fuck they want.

But in this case this is something Harada didn't want.

 

[2San]

Because it's about context. This isn't an isolated event. To focus the issue on one petty example ignores what the real issue is.

The context is Muslims exercising their freedom of speech to ask something of a developer and that developer responding kindly to them.

As far as I'm concerned developers can do whatever the fuck they want. There are tons of Japanese games which shit all over Christianity (as mentioned by Keiichi) and you don't see those getting changed because Christians are offended by them. Frankly, I find the idea that something needs to be changed because it offended somebody ridiculous. Imagine if every game someone got offended by was changed. Violent games would practically cease to exist! No one group of people should be afforded the power to censor whatever they want because it offends them

Yeah and the developer decides what they can and cannot change. Similarly they decide they decide what goes in it and what doesn't. If Harada wanted to keep it in, it would be fine by me. The fact people getting worked up about Harada respecting the wishes of a significant portion of his customers is insane.

 

[Taruranto]

JRPGs used to have Christian symbols removed for the Western markets.

My favorite jrpg has Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the party.

 

[Zeliard]

So much hate and ignorance in this thread. :/ What's the big deal? Are you gonna miss having Allah's name on the floor? If it's disrespectful to some of their fans, as creators of COURSE they're going to want to fix it as soon as possible. They don't see religion/race/etc. on the dev side, they just want to reach out to as many fans as possible and give them something they can enjoy. Which is totally fine. Props to Harada for addressing this as quickly as he is.

Less hate, more love, people! <3

Look at that, a voice of reason in a topic involving Islam.

 

[genjiZERO]

The context is Muslims exercising their freedom of speech to ask something of a developer and that developer responding kindly to them.

That's cool. But it still doesn't change the even greater context of Muslims in contemporary times getting offended by "artwork", and destroying said artwork or even killing people over it. Pigeonholing the conversation doesn't change that fact. So you pondered why "people overreact to every single thing Muslims do". That's the reason.

 

[braves01]

Seriously?I'm sure those people are the same that play video games and tweet.

You seem to be forgetting that a Youtube video triggered mass protests and violence across the middle east recently.

Anyways, changing the texture in this case is no biggie. It doesn't change the game really, and since it was accidental it doesn't really violate artistic integrity to change it. The fear of violence caused by offending Muslims is real though, people who think otherwise are deluding themselves.

 

[Izayoi]

The context is Muslims exercising their freedom of speech to ask something of a developer and that developer responding kindly to them.

Yeah and the developer decides what they can and cannot change. Similarly they decide they decide what goes in it and what doesn't. If Harada wanted to keep it in, it would be fine by me. The fact people getting worked up about Harada respecting the wishes of a significant portion of his customers is insane.

And that's great, he didn't want it in, and he decided to change it. I was responding to your post that Muslims "aren't allowed to be offended anymore". Which is obviously bullshit, anyone is allowed to be offended, but don't expect sympathy where none is deserved. You can be offended all you like, but it seems that many of the people who are offended think that they have the right to get things that offend them censored or otherwise removed, which is also bullshit.

I'm sorry, but just because something offends you does not mean that you can have the expectation for it to be changed. (I'm not talking about you specifically here, keep in mind.)

 

[AlucardGV]

what about valkyrie profile messing with Odin and company? or god of war, kratos kill gods

 

[Izayoi]

what about valkyrie profile messing with Odin and company? or god of war, kratos kill gods

But nobody believes in those silly gods anymore, so it's not the same!

 

[2San]

That's cool. But it still doesn't change the even greater context of Muslims in contemporary times getting offended by "artwork", and destroying said artwork or even killing people over it. Pigeonholing the conversation doesn't change that fact. So you pondered why "people overreact to every single thing Muslims do". That's the reason.

You have no point so you are trying to pull in unrelated events. This thread is about people asking a question to Harada in an normal way and Harada responding. You are trying to make this a thing about violence simply, because it mentions Muslims. You are essentially punishing people for things they didn't do. Islamic gamers aren't allowed to ask questions and developers aren't allowed to respect their wishes, because there are Islamic terrorist in the world? Or do you believe all Muslims are violent? Is that the context you are banging on about?

And that's great, he didn't want it in, and he decided to change it. I was responding to your post that Muslims "aren't allowed to be offended anymore". Which is obviously bullshit, anyone is allowed to be offended, but don't expect sympathy where none is deserved. You can be offended all you like, but it seems that many of the people who are offended think that they have the right to get things that offend them censored or otherwise removed, which is also bullshit.

I'm sorry, but just because something offends you does not mean that you can have the expectation for it to be changed. (I'm not talking about you specifically here, keep in mind.)

Uhm they have the right to ask and the devs have the right to respond kindly. Which seems to annoy you guys greatly, which is what baffles me. What's wrong with respecting the wishes of other people?

 

[Dark Octave]

I thought that Muslims would avoid games like Tekken all together due to the fact that powerful women are fighting and beating men, but I was obviously wrong about that.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I'm sorry, but just because something offends you does not mean that you can have the expectation for it to be changed. (I'm not talking about you specifically here, keep in mind.)

Yes, but what harm does it do in asking nicely? What harm does it do in complying?

Nobody was demanded anything, no riots in the streets, not even angry blog rants. This were customers concerned with the image on a video game level, and politely asking a developer(who didn't really want it in the first place) to remove it. That is all that is happening here.

 

[Kurtofan]

You seem to be forgetting that a Youtube video triggered mass protests and violence across the middle east recently.

The protests were wide, but not all violent and only a few thousands of Muslim protested in the entire world, which is not a lot.

 

[Mavromatis]

Why is it always them? Always the Muslims?

I want to know that too. Why is it always arabs/muslims, russians and germans the bad guys? And their culture can easily be ignored and made fun of? I think entertainment products must try to incorporate them if they want to sell them products. Leaving the generic bad guys and creating some new concepts may need some effort but I think it is necessary.

 

[Finaika]

I thought that Muslims would avoid games like Tekken all together due to the fact that powerful women are fighting and beating men, but I was obviously wrong about that.

I'm a Muslim and my main is Asuka & Jun.

How about that?

 

[walking fiend]

The ignorance in some of the posts here is just baffling...

 

[Pineconn]

I want to know that too. Why is it always arabs/muslims, russians and germans the bad guys? And their culture can easily be ignored and made fun of? I think entertainment products must try to incorporate them if they want to sell them products. Leaving the generic bad guys and creating some new concepts may need some effort but I think it is necessary.

Every culture is made fun of. I see a ton of horseshit said about the United States, but you don't see me complaining about it.

 

[walking fiend]

Every culture is made fun of. I see a ton of horseshit said about the United States, but you don't see me complaining about it.

Because you don't complain it doesn't mean others don't have a right to complain.

It's just basics of democracy. They don't have to change it, but it doesn't mean others can't complain.


Some people are so trying to represent themselves as liberal and modern that they just fall from the other side.