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[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And remember that probably an year of jail will correspond to 9 months.

I'm not sure I follow you, can you explain? Do you mean that a year in a sentence is counted only 3/4 in actual time?

 

[storafötter]

Thank you! Is their precedent for anyone in Norwegian recent legal history being essentially kept in prison for life via foravring?

No one has been kept until old age as far as I know during modern times. A lot of people in forvaring have been released, even released before that time.

 

[Salazar]

Just isolate him from media or other information from the outside world then. My main point is to deny him the knowledge of the consequences of his actions.

He flits between fantasist and realist postures so freely that I dunno how severely this would bother him.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just isolate him from media or other information from the outside world then. My main point is to deny him the knowledge of the consequences of his actions.

We do it to the AQ boys in ADX Florence. They get heavily censored mail and little access to the outside world. We also do it with gang leaders. It's possible for a judge to do what happened to Luis Felpe earlier, BUT in the Luis case he used the mail to order murders.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

No one has been kept until old age as far as I know. A lot of people in forvaring has been released, even if their sentence has been extended.

Then that is a disturbing possibility. That said one could belief that one special case might stick, but what happens if he develops some sort of physical or mental disease? Early release for that is pretty big in Europe (though not as much in the UK IIRC).

 

[ComputerMKII]

Personally I think the best and most appropriate punishment would be complete isolation for the rest of his life, in an empty room with a bed and a toilet, with no one to speak to and no means of communication with the outside world. He would be completely and utterly broken down mentally and denied the satisfaction of knowing how his actions impacted the world.

What do European/International laws and treaties on human right say about the rights of prisoners? For instance, is there some rule that guarantees the right of an inmate to exerce free speech and send writings to the outside world (or at the very least, to his family)?

 

[Ledsen]

He flits between fantasist and realist postures so freely that I dunno how severely this would bother him.

He's obviously highly narcissistic, to the point of delusions of grandeur, so I'd think it would drive him crazy.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

He flits between fantasist and realist postures so freely that I dunno how severely this would bother him.

I'd troll him by reading from the Koran a lot. Maybe dress him up in a Burqa. Shame he's one of those crazy hey I hate Muslim's so the Jews will like me guys, otherwise I'd have tons of ways to troll him even more.

What do European/International laws and treaties on human right say about the rights of prisoners? For instance, is there some rule that guarantees the right of an inmate to exerce free speech and send writings to the outside world (or at the very least, to his family)?

I think a lot has to do with the European Court of Human Rights as opposed to just treaties.

 

[Corky]

Then that is a disturbing possibility. That said one could belief that one special case might stick, but what happens if he develops some sort of physical or mental disease? Early release for that is pretty big in Europe (though not as much in the UK IIRC).

This might sound dark but he did attack and kill people who are much younger than him, these people lost brothers, sisters and best friends on the island. If he is released there will be a huge media coverage, people can hold grudges for a long time. He wont outlive them.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

I'm not sure I follow you, can you explain? Do you mean that a year in a sentence is counted only 3/4 in actual time?

Every 6 months you get obtain a bonus of 45 days on the sentence based on your behavior. It's very common in most EU countries, especially if the sentence of jail is very long in time (years).

 

[Joel Was Right]

Give him one newspaper edition though; the one where Norway recognises Palestine.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This might sound dark but he did attack and kill people who are much younger than him, these people lost brothers, sisters and best friends on the island. If he is released there will be a huge media coverage, people can hold grudges for a long time.

They could hide his id, like those two kids in England who murdered that little kindergarten kid, when they were finally released.

 

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

EDIT EDIT:
Not to sound like a stupid American, but one thing already against this guys legacy is how hard it is to write or say his name. I wonder if that plays a part, or will ABB be like OBL?

I guess that's why he choose to write his 1500 page manifest under an Anglicized name I have happily forgotten.

 

[storafötter]

Then that is a disturbing possibility. That said one could belief that one special case might stick, but what happens if he develops some sort of physical or mental disease? Early release for that is pretty big in Europe (though not as much in the UK IIRC).

Exactly, thats what I fear. It is very likely that during the first 10 years the sentencing it will be strict as possible, but over time it will get softer. Like I just googled a case of someone who killed 3 people and an unborn baby a few years back.
He got 21 years forvaring, with a minimum of 10 years of jail-time as supposedly the strictest punishment. However what disturbs me is how they gave him a minimum 10 years and not 21 years.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Thank you! Is their precedent for anyone in Norwegian recent legal history being essentially kept in prison for life via foravring?

EDIT EDIT:
Not to sound like a stupid American, but one thing already against this guys legacy is how hard it is to write or say his name. I wonder if that plays a part, or will ABB be like OBL?

No one has been kept imprisoned for life as far as I know, but I think the case against ABB will set a precedense in that he'll never be set free.

As for just abbreviating it to ABB, it's just a matter of convenienve because I can't be arsed to type out his full name :lol

They could hide his id, like those two kids in England who murdered that little kindergarten kid, when they were finally released.

England has a much bigger population than Norway though, London alone as nearly 3 million inhabitants more than Norway, so it would be much easier to hide someone in England than in Norway. I think he'll be kept in forvaring for the rest of his life, if only for his own safety.

I guess that's why he choose to write his 1500 page manifest under an Anglicized name I have happily forgotten.

Andrew Berwick

 

[SmokyDave]

I'd troll him by reading from the Koran a lot. Maybe dress him up in a Burqa. Shame he's one of those crazy hey I hate Muslim's so the Jews will like me guys, otherwise I'd have tons of ways to troll him even more.

Nah, if you want to mess with his head you get a faux right-wing guard to treat him like shit because this attack lead to anti-blasphemy laws, mandatory security checks of all non-muslims, reversal of burkha and minaret bans and a public outpouring of support for the muslim community.

Let him think that the attack had the exact opposite effect he intended. You'll need to isolate him from prisoners / media but that shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Every 6 months you get obtain a bonus of 45 days on the sentence based on your behavior.

Man, that is kind of crazy, but then again they have the low rates of recidivism, but I also think that has to do with the economy and other social factors.

I guess that's why he choose to write his 1500 page manifest under an Anglicized name I have happily forgotten.

Same here. Honestly the most I recall about him is bastard son of David Duchovny and Udo Keir or preppy Julian Assange, or male prostitute who caters to a aristocratic butler fetish crowd. His name, I can't even take a random stab.

 

[Raiden]

I am pretty sure that this man will never walk free ever again. I mean come on ... has there ever been a case where a serial killer walks free?

Serious question.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I, for one, think ABB deserves the death penalty (which is only proportionate to what crimes he has committed), and that it is more fair a punishment than 24 years + God knows how many extra years in jail, for the following reason:

The most recent, supposedly highly “humanitarian” criterion for punishment is to “rehabilitate” the criminal. Old-fashioned justice, the argument goes, concentrated on punishing the criminal, either in retribution or to deter future crime; the new criterion humanely attempts to reform and rehabilitate the criminal. But on further consideration, the “humanitarian” rehabilitation principle not only leads to arbitrary and gross injustice, it also places enormous and arbitrary power to decide men’s fates in the hands of the dispensers of punishment. Thus, suppose that Smith is a mass murderer, while Jones stole some fruit from a stand. Instead of being sentenced in proportion to their crimes, their sentences are now indeterminate, with confinement ending upon their supposedly successful “rehabilitation.” But this gives the power to determine the prisoners’ lives into the hands of an arbitrary group of supposed rehabilitators. It would mean that instead of equality under the law—an elementary criterion of justice—with equal crimes being punished equally, one man may go to prison for a few weeks, if he is quickly “rehabilitated,” while another may remain in prison indefinitely. Thus, in our case of Smith and Jones, suppose that the mass murderer Smith is, according to our board of “experts,” rapidly rehabilitated. He is released in three weeks, to the plaudits of the supposedly successful reformers. In the meanwhile, Jones, the fruit-stealer, persists in being incorrigible and clearly un-rehabilitated, at least in the eyes of the expert board. According to the logic of the principle, he must stay incarcerated indefinitely, perhaps for the rest of his life, for while the crime was negligible, he continued to remain outside the influence of his “humanitarian” mentors.

Furthermore, (C.S.) Lewis points out, the rulers can use the concept of “disease” as a means for terming any actions that they dislike as “crimes” and then to inflict a totalitarian rule in the name of Therapy.

For if crime and disease are to be regarded as the same thing, it follows that any state of mind which our masters choose to call “disease” can be treated as crime; and compulsorily cured. It will be vain to plead that states of mind which displease government need not always involve moral turpitude and do not therefore always deserve forfeiture of liberty. For our masters will not be using concepts of Desert and Punishment but those of disease and cure. . . . It will not be persecution. Even if the treatment is painful, even if it is life-long, even if it is fatal, that will be only a regrettable accident; the intention was purely therapeutic. Even in ordinary medicine there were painful operations and fatal operations; so in this. But because they are “treatment,” not punishment, they can be criticized only by fellow-experts and on technical grounds, never by men as men and on grounds of justice.

Thus, we see that the fashionable reform approach to punishment can be at least as grotesque and far more uncertain and arbitrary than the deterrence principle. Retribution remains as our only just and viable theory of punishment and equal treatment for equal crime is fundamental to such retributive punishment. The barbaric turns out to be the just while the “modern” and the “humanitarian” turn out to be grotesque parodies of justice.

("Punishment and Proportionality", in Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethics_of_Liberty

 

[modulaire]

I, for one, think ABB deserves the death penalty (which is only proportionate to what crimes he has committed), and that it is more fair a punishment than 24 years + God knows how many extra years in jail, for the following reason:


("Punishment and Proportionality", in Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethics_of_Liberty

No, thanks.

Europe doesn't need the death penalty. It worked out quite well so far without such an archaic punishment (that doesn't seem to work if I look at the countries that have that penalty).

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Exactly, thats what I fear. It is very likely that during the first 10 years the sentencing it will be strict as possible, but over time it will get softer. Like I just googled a case of someone who killed 3 people and an unborn baby a few years back.
He got 21 years forvaring, with a minimum of 10 years of jail-time as supposedly the strictest punishment. However what disturbs me is how they gave him a minimum 10 years and not 21 years.

Yeah, I have to say honestly, in most US states he'd have a chance for death, and even ignoring that life with no parole. I want to say for the Federal System that there is no parole, it was abolished in the 1980s (but only for new sentences). If you get life in federal prison, barring a presidential pardon, you will die there.

No one has been kept imprisoned for life as far as I know, but I think the case against ABB will set a precedense in that he'll never be set free.

Well it will be interesting to see if the Norwegian legal system will actually be able to do it. Honestly, the justice ministry should just start drafting guidelines to allow for it and put it in place. It's better than trying to just keep using forvaring.

As for just abbreviating it to ABB, it's just a matter of convenienve because I can't be arsed to type out his full name :lol

I'm sure you're not the only one.

England has a much bigger population than Norway though, London alone as nearly 3 million inhabitants more than Norway, so it would be much easier to hide someone in England than in Norway. I think he'll be kept in forvaring for the rest of his life, if only for his own safety.

It's valid, but there was a ton of interest in the case. I think a lot of it had to do with restrictions against the press in the UK being invoked more than anything else.

Nah, if you want to mess with his head you get a faux right-wing guard to treat him like shit because this attack lead to anti-blasphemy laws, mandatory security checks of all non-muslims, reversal of burkha and minaret bans and a public outpouring of support for the muslim community.

Let him think that the attack had the exact opposite effect he intended. You'll need to isolate him from prisoners / media but that shouldn't be too difficult.

Hmm, I like that, but then again perhaps that was his goal, it will (in his mind) accelerate the rise of a large Muslim Population and then exacerbate tensions and boom he gets his civil war.

How about just deliver him Arabic language media? They could also wallpaper his room with the faces of the victims and loop in voice samples of them they get from the victims parents...I've been thinking about this way too much.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

Man, that is kind of crazy, but then again they have the low rates of recidivism, but I also think that has to do with the economy and other social factors.

Not so sure it is applied in such brutal mass murders anyway. Norway anyway is extremely tolerant in that sense, but I don't think this man will ever come free again.

I mean: who will take the responsibility to set free a person who killed almost 100 people, mostly 14-16 years-old adolescents? I don't think it will never happen.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I'm sure you're not the only one.

We could mention him as ABB, or just say Breivik, just as Varg Vikernes is sometimes referred to as simply'Varg'.

 

[Ledsen]

I, for one, think ABB deserves the death penalty (which is only proportionate to what crimes he has committed), and that it is more fair a punishment than 24 years + God knows how many extra years in jail, for the following reason:


("Punishment and Proportionality", in Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethics_of_Liberty

The author does himself no favours by choosing such a highly exaggerated and clearly unrealistic scenario as he does in the first part. From the part you quoted, his argument is basically "humanitarianism and rehabilitation allow for disproportionate punishment between individuals, thus retribution is out only choice". An eye for an eye, in every case. Why is this necessary? Our modern justice system doesn't work like in his example, punishment is intended to be in proportion to the crime. I don't see how this supports your call for a death sentence.

 

[Keio]

I, for one, think ABB deserves the death penalty (which is only proportionate to what crimes he has committed), and that it is more fair a punishment than 24 years + God knows how many extra years in jail, for the following reason:

("Punishment and Proportionality", in Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethics_of_Liberty

Let's leave the libertarian stuff out, please.

Key thing is, most of Europe does not consider jail time a punishment as such, jail/killing as punishment is a very Hammurabian and American concept. Rather it's about protecting society and reforming people, but the straw men sketched by Lewis does not exist: there are set jail terms for crimes, but the opportunity to release people early/later also based on agreed rules.

 

[Cygnus X-1]

We could mention him as ABB, or just say Breivik, just as Varg Vikernes is sometimes referred to as simply'Varg'.

Bloody bastard son of a bitch is my definition of him.

ABB is a company.

 

[Kapsama]

Have you read the manifesto?

no I haven't read it. If you're trying to justify the term you coined with his ramblings then I'm not impressed.
bin laden is a called a muslims terrorist instead of a Anti-West or Anti-Christian extremist no matter how many mixtapes he's filled with ramblings

 

[SmokyDave]

no I haven't read it. If you're trying to justify the term you coined with his ramblings then I'm not impressed.
bin laden is a called a muslims terrorist instead of a Anti-West or Anti-Christian extremist no matter how many mixtapes he's filled with ramblings

No, I'm trying to suggest that you read it, or the parts pertaining to religion, before you leap to assumptions.

 

[Dilly]

I hope he doesn't get a death penalty, but just kept in isolation for the rest of his life.

 

[besada]

I think they should try him for each murder separately, one at a time. Let him out of jail after the first sentence and then try him for the next murder. Seems like a legal, if tricky, way to keep him in jail until he dies.

 

[Kabouter]

no I haven't read it. If you're trying to justify the term you coined with his ramblings then I'm not impressed.
bin laden is a called a muslims terrorist instead of a Anti-West or Anti-Christian extremist no matter how many mixtapes he's filled with ramblings

What would you feel is the best label for this guy? He's not really a Christian, that much is obvious from his manifesto, he sees Christianity more as a sort of cultural unifier against Islam, so calling him a Christian Terrorist doesn't seem accurate either.

 

[ComputerMKII]

I think they should try him for each murder separately, one at a time. Let him out of jail after the first sentence and then try him for the next murder. Seems like a legal, if tricky, way to keep him in jail until he dies.

No, that's not legal.

 

[Forever]

What would you feel is the best label for this guy? He's not really a Christian, that much is obvious from his manifesto, he sees Christianity more as a sort of cultural unifier against Islam, so calling him a Christian Terrorist doesn't seem accurate either.

Conservative Terrorist.

No, that's not legal.

Consecutive sentencing should be allowed everywhere. I'm glad we have it in the US.

 

[besada]

No, that's not legal.

Can you explain why? In most countries there's no statute of limitations for murder, and it isn't double-jeopardy because each murder is a different crime.

 

[neorej]

What would you feel is the best label for this guy? He's not really a Christian, that much is obvious from his manifesto, he sees Christianity more as a sort of cultural unifier against Islam, so calling him a Christian Terrorist doesn't seem accurate either.

I think the label "Complete and total nutjob" covers it pretty swell.

 

[Kabouter]

I think the label "Complete and total nutjob" covers it pretty swell.

While absolutely accurate, it's not very specific though, is it?

 

[Pandaman]

What would you feel is the best label for this guy? He's not really a Christian, that much is obvious from his manifesto, he sees Christianity more as a sort of cultural unifier against Islam, so calling him a Christian Terrorist doesn't seem accurate either.

come on people, being a politically conservative maniac doesn't mean he can't be religiously liberal. he's a christian. so what?

on any normal day liberal Christians would highlight the fact that you don't have to be strictly religiously conservative and pull the full party line to be a christian, but now that its this maniac suddenly we're being picky?

 

[neorej]

While absolutely accurate, it's not very specific though, is it?

It's not, but it sufficies for me. None of his actions speak of a higher purpose. Comparing him to Bin Laden is too much credit for him. Bin Laden had a strategic roadmap and a method to his actions. This man was just a sick puppy Norway needs to put down very very slowly.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Can you explain why? In most countries there's no statute of limitations for murder, and it isn't double-jeopardy because each murder is a different crime.

Because Norwegian legislation doesn't allow for that. If you commit three murders (at the same time), you can get 21 years + eventual time in 'forvaring', but you can't get 21 + 21 +21 years. It doesn't work that way here.

 

[Peru]

I, for one, think ABB deserves the death penalty (which is only proportionate to what crimes he has committed), and that it is more fair a punishment than 24 years + God knows how many extra years in jail, for the following reason:

It would give him status, attention, martyrdom +++. There is also literally zero consideration being paid to this alternative in this country and even in a state of sorrow and anger like now the polls show no one wants death penalty. Absolutely the wrong choice, signal, everything.

 

[besada]

Because Norwegian legislation doesn't allow for that. If you commit three murders, you can get 21 years + eventual time in 'forvaring', but you can't get 21 + 21 +21 years. It doesn't work that way here.

Shame.

 

[SmokyDave]

come on people, being a politically conservative maniac doesn't mean he can't be religiously liberal. he's a christian. so what?

on any normal day liberal Christians would highlight the fact that you don't have to be strictly religiously conservative and pull the full party line to be a christian, but now that its this maniac suddenly we're being picky?

You need to bear in mind that a large proportion of Europe is atheist. Don't assume that there's some 'christian defence force' in effect, it could just be that lots of atheists like their terrorists labelled accurately. Certainly the case for me. I want to understand why and 'christian extremist' seems like a lazy and inaccurate answer.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Can you explain why? In most countries there's no statute of limitations for murder, and it isn't double-jeopardy because each murder is a different crime.

You get tried for all murders at once. Sentences don't add up to each other.

 

[Klyka]

Man, some of you people in this thread and the ways of torture/death you come up with XD

 

[ComputerMKII]

It would give him status, attention, martyrdom +++

It would also show that the law is the same for everyone and the judicial system doesn't let public opinion dictate which punishment is the better one.

 

[besada]

You get tried for all murders at once. Sentences don't add up to each other.

I get that that's the way it's done, I was just hoping someone could point to a statute or law somewhere that explicitly laid out a prohibition, not on consecutive sentencing, but consecutive trials.

In the U.S. they'd try you on all crimes at once and sentence you consecutively. And since we have an explicit requirement for a speedy trial, it wouldn't work here, but I know many countries aren't quite so explicit regarding the need for a speedy trial (accepted practice vs. Constitutional right), which seems to open the avenue of simply waiting to try him for some of the murders until he's out of jail.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Shame.

That's how many countries in Europe work. You can't get crazy sentences like 300 years in prison or two life sentences like in Mexico or the US. If you've committed several crimes, you usually get whichever sentence is the strongest (life in prison, for instance).

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/cumulative-sentence/

 

[Pandaman]

You need to bear in mind that a large proportion of Europe is atheist. Don't assume that there's some 'christian defence force' in effect, it could just be that lots of atheists like their terrorists labelled accurately. Certainly the case for me. I want to understand why and 'christian extremist' seems like a lazy and inaccurate answer.

in his own words he describes his religious life as being moderately christian ~agnostic ~ moderately christian.

he was an atheist, he's since changed his mind about that. its easy enough to dismiss Christianity as the cause of this madness without pretending he isn't a christian, since he never seems to make mention of any religious awakening or calling to do what he does.

 

[Kabouter]

come on people, being a politically conservative maniac doesn't mean he can't be religiously liberal. he's a christian. so what?

on any normal day liberal Christians would highlight the fact that you don't have to be strictly religiously conservative and pull the full party line to be a christian, but now that its this maniac suddenly we're being picky?

Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. What I meant was that he wasn't a Christian fundamentalist, and as such, Christianity did not motivate his actions, or at the very least it was not the primary motivator. Calling him a Christian terrorist therefore would be strange.

 

[besada]

That's how many countries in Europe work. You can't get crazy sentences like 300 years in prison or two life sentences like in Mexico or the US. If you've committed several crimes, you usually get whichever sentence is the strongest (life in prison, for instance).

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/cumulative-sentence/

Again, I'm not talking about consecutive sentencing, I'm talking about consecutive trials, with a gap for each. And I get "that's not how it's done here." I was asking if anyone could point to a specific reason why, other than "that's how we do it."

In the U.S. it would be easy to point to the reason, as it would be in violation of the sixth amendment, which guarantees a speedy trial. I guess I'm trying to figure out if there's a statutory reason it's impossible (and, if so, what that reason is) or whether this is a lack of imagination on the part of prosecutors.