AS: The scandal of illegals in 2010 was portrayed in Russia as a huge victory for the SVR, despite the fact that these guys were all caughta PR celebration to say that Russian intelligence is back. But in the United States, the perception was completely different. How can you explain this contradiction?
JW: Well, the very first response was the FBI saying, These guys are so dangerous. But very quickly the media caught on to the fact that even the FBI couldnt present any proof that they had actually done anything. Soon the reporting turned to the idea that these guys had no value and werent a real risk. It took about half a year for the intelligence community to fight a kind of rear-guard action, to say, Heres what the illegals might have been doing that was really dangerous, so you should be scared of them. For example, one of them was close to somebody who was close to Hillary Clinton. And also they may have been communicating with people in the NSA [National Security Agency]. Its in the [U.S.] intelligence communitys interest for the illegals to have posed a major, serious threat. When it was time to do The Americans, I was less interested in the reality of what illegals did or didnt do. I was interested in the perception, in the spies among us, and in the fear at that timeRonald Reagan, the evil empire.When it was time to do The Americans, I was less interested in the reality of what illegals did or didnt do. I was interested in the perception, in the spies among us, and in the fear at that timeRonald Reagan, the evil empire. Of course, the illegals were actually there to act in wartime, to go and blow things up, poison water suppliesthings like that. They did have a fairly insidious mission; it just wasnt really acted upon. So I wanted to put back together a fantasy of the worst possible things and make it more dramatic. Theres no question that in the show these guys are much more active and are doing much worse things than illegals ever did. Theres some conflict between that and the main purpose of the show, which is really to say, Take a look at the enemy; the enemy is really just like you, so stop seeing them so much as your enemy.
AS: Yes, I think thats a very good point to look at the actions. That was always the commentary from the SVR guys. One point of the illegals was always to act in a special period, which actually means warto have a special cache of weapons in times of war, that illegals might use to hide weapons and explosives. In the scandal in 2010, everybody tried to get comments from the SVR. Eventually, a general was dispatched. When he was asked, Well this program is so expensive, we have left these guys for years, and what is the result? he said the same speech: Well, in a special period, these guys might be useful. So they developed this program when they had in mind a period when there might be a big war between Russiaor the Soviet Unionand the United States. They developed special procedures and they still work from these procedures. They still have the same principles. Its fascinating, that so many years have passed, nobody thinks about the big war between the two super powers, but nevertheless, they still have these things.
JW: Ill tell a favorite illegals story: They were also sent to Eastern Europe, interestingly enoughto the Soviet allies. For example, there was an illegal that was sent to Czechoslovakia in 1968; this person, like many of the illegals, had become somewhat westernized and he sent back to Russia these very honest accounts about what was going on and was really sort of pro-the forces of Czechoslovakia that were fighting for freedom and independence. This person was fearless and, to a certain degree, because of some of the politics of the illegals program, was able to send these reports and didnt have any repercussions for it. Of course the general officers in the embassy were under great pressure to say what everybody wanted to hear. That was a problem with Soviet intelligence throughout the entire Soviet periodthat you couldnt really give accurate intelligence because you could lose your job over it. But this illegal was able to go into Czechoslovakia and say, Look, these people are not so bad; they are kind of doing something decentand send these reports back to Moscow.
