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[Aizo]

I failed N2. I didn't expect to pass, but I wanted an idea of where I stand. My listening is strong enough to pass, but my vocab isn't quite there. My reading score was pretty low, unfortunately.

 

[Kilrogg]

I failed N2. I didn't expect to pass, but I wanted an idea of where I stand. My listening is strong enough to pass, but my vocab isn't quite there. My reading score was pretty low, unfortunately.

Reading is a bitch to be honest, unless you're Chinese.

When I passed N2, it wasn't thanks to reading, let me tell you that. In the old JLPT exam you didn't need a minimum score in each category to pass, only a high enugh average score, unlike now. I think my reading was below today's threshold, so by today's standards I might have failed the test.

The good thing is that, from my experience at least, the jump in difficulty between N2 and N1 for reading is fairly small. It's still a bitch though, I hate reading, I absolutely suck at it.

 

[KtSlime]

I failed N2. I didn't expect to pass, but I wanted an idea of where I stand. My listening is strong enough to pass, but my vocab isn't quite there. My reading score was pretty low, unfortunately.

The reading score got me twice a few years back. I will pass this July though. 絶対に合格！

 

[Jintor]

Complete opposite, reading way easier than speaking to me. (Am Chinese though.) (Didn't know any hanzi/kanji though until like last year)

 

[AtomskEater]

Well I was just going on what I've seen most people say. I never used them myself and learned pretty much everything online on my own, starting with Tae Kim's guide and working my way up to 庭三郎の現代日本語文法概説 (which I recommend to everyone at an advanced level).

So I checked this out to bookmark for future use, and it looks like this. Is that normal or am I in need of some kind of font pack for Firefox?

 

[upandaway]

I haven't checked any N2-level material yet, not looking forward to doing that based on what you guys say. N2 always gave off the impression of the "wall" between not usable and usable, because I read somewhere that some places accept N2 as a sufficient fluency level but N3 being too low.

So I checked this out to bookmark for future use, and it looks like this. Is that normal or am I in need of some kind of font pack for Firefox?

Here's how it looks to me

I was a bit happy that I managed to read and understand everything on that page pretty effortlessly... then I clicked. I shouldn't have clicked.

 

[Kansoku]

So I checked this out to bookmark for future use, and it looks like this. Is that normal or am I in need of some kind of font pack for Firefox?

Change the encoding to EUC-JP instead of UTF-8 or JIS

 

[AtomskEater]

Change the encoding to EUC-JP instead of UTF-8 or JIS

Thank you, that was the problem!

 

[Aizo]

Complete opposite, reading way easier than speaking to me. (Am Chinese though.) (Didn't know any hanzi/kanji though until like last year)

You took N2?

 

[Jintor]

You took N2?

I just meant generally. Lol. I don't know where I am with grammar yet, probably around n5/n4

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Complete opposite, reading way easier than speaking to me. (Am Chinese though.) (Didn't know any hanzi/kanji though until like last year)

Being Chinese doesn't really mean much if you didn't learn Kanji until beginning to study Japanese.

 

[Aizo]

So, my girlfriend and I started reading スプートニク恋人 by Murakami Haruki, and it is really hard for us. My Japanese is a bit better than hers, but I think we're equally struggling. We've read essays, articles, and short stories in Japanese, but this is a whole other level. I've read a number of manga and played games in japanese, too. We also both lived in Tokyo for about a year. We aren't novices, but the use of metaphorical language and description is hard to follow. Dialogue is fine, but most of the rest is damn hard, because of the seemingly endless creative descriptions and vocabulary. Do we just push forward until we become good? Any tips for reading Japanese lit?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So, my girlfriend and I started reading スプートニク恋人 by Murakami Haruki, and it is really hard for us. My Japanese is a bit better than hers, but I think we're equally struggling. We've read essays, articles, and short stories in Japanese, but this is a whole other level. I've read a number of manga and played games in japanese, too. We also both lived in Tokyo for about a year. We aren't novices, but the use of metaphorical language and description is hard to follow. Dialogue is fine, but most of the rest is damn hard, because of the seemingly endless creative descriptions and vocabulary. Do we just push forward until we become good? Any tips for reading Japanese lit?

Murakami's style is fairly unique. You'll see a lot of people criticize him for his overly indulgent and often pretentious writing style.

I'd recommend you push forward and just look everything up, even if that might not be the most enjoyable way to experience a book. All experience is good experience and will help you get better.

 

[Torraz]

I was using the tae kim app and working on my pronounciation. The app offers both a female and male voice for the hiragana. To my ear it almost seems that, especially for the syllables ending in "o", the female voice ending with a slighly lower pitch than the male version.

Some other recordings I found, sadly all by female speakers, also featured the lower pitch (on the Os).

Is this something that can be generalized, that there are also differences between male and female pronounciation?

Thanks!

 

[AdventureRacing]

Is there a good website for looking up the pronunciation of words. Trying to work my way through all the links in the OP (which are awesome). Just wondering what's the best one to break down the words into syllables for pronunciation.

 

[CornBurrito]

Is there a good website for looking up the pronunciation of words. Trying to work my way through all the links in the OP (which are awesome). Just wondering what's the best one to break down the words into syllables for pronunciation.

Japanese pronunciation is easy. Hiragana/Katakana represent syllables and they never vary.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Japanese pronunciation is easy. Hiragana/Katakana represent syllables and they never vary.

That's not actually true. A lot of syllables are shortened or slurred in different contexts. As a really common example, you almost never hear the う (u) sound in です (desu) unless it's being spoken by someone being super extra polite (or a woman). Instead it's just an extra little space at the end of the word. It mostly happens with kana ending in a u sound, but a similar clipping can be found in ち (chi) and し (shi) in some words. している (shiteiru) truncated to sh-te-ru, したまち (shitamachi) to sh-tamachi, まちがった (machigatta) to mach-gatta, to name some examples.

THAT BEING SAID, just learn the words by sounding out the kana. It will be very simple to eventually learn how to pronounce more "naturally," but you don't want to risk a situation where you've learned a word the completely wrong way and you need to learn how to "clean it up" for a certain setting or situation.

When and how to truncate these sounds is something you learn from practice and conversation, not something you should brute-force through memorization. That's just a huge waste of time, and eventually you'll get an ear for it.

I was using the tae kim app and working on my pronounciation. The app offers both a female and male voice for the hiragana. To my ear it almost seems that, especially for the syllables ending in "o", the female voice ending with a slighly lower pitch than the male version.

Some other recordings I found, sadly all by female speakers, also featured the lower pitch (on the Os).

Is this something that can be generalized, that there are also differences between male and female pronounciation?

Thanks!

There are differences in male and female pronunciation, but it's not something you should worry too much about. As a foreigner learning the language, you learn to speak like a woman. That's because in Japan, women speak super formally, observe way more style and grammar rules, and are almost always humble. This goes far beyond pronunciation, though; and I'm guessing that your question is probably best answered with "the particular people who recorded for the website just have slightly different pronunciation norms". Variations in pronunciation are as prevalent in Japanese as they are in English. Anything that's being touted as an example on an educational site is probably A-OK to emulate.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That's not actually true. A lot of syllables are shortened or slurred in different contexts. As a really common example, you almost never hear the う (u) sound in です (desu) unless it's being spoken by someone being super extra polite (or a woman). Instead it's just an extra little space at the end of the word. It mostly happens with kana ending in a u sound, but a similar clipping can be found in ち (chi) and し (shi) in some words. している (shiteiru) truncated to sh-te-ru, したまち (shitamachi) to sh-tamachi, まちがった (machigatta) to mach-gatta, to name some examples.

I think you're overstating it a bit. です with and without the hard "u" (think 'sue') are both super common and frequently used. It's certainly not limited to situations of ultra politeness or women.

Also, people are saying "shi" in your examples of Shitamachi and Shiteru, it's just not overly enunciated as if a person is saying "she."

There are differences in male and female pronunciation, but it's not something you should worry too much about. As a foreigner learning the language, you learn to speak like a woman. That's because in Japan, women speak super formally, observe way more style and grammar rules, and are almost always humble.

Come on, now. This is just a bunch of bullshit, especially in the context of modern day Japan. What are some examples of lessons teaching people to speak in a way that would make them sound overtly feminine?

 

[Jintor]

if that's true my girl students definitely have not hit that stage of japanese language speaking yet

やばいやばいやばいめっちゃやばい～！

和から編せんせいー～

 

[stump sock]

Come on, now. This is just a bunch of bullshit, especially in the context of modern day Japan. What are some examples of lessons teaching people to speak in a way that would make them sound overtly feminine?

male friend of mine got lightly teased for using "watashi" instead of boku but I'm sure that's more of an instance of using overly formal language than gender stuff.

there's stuff like sugoi/sugei and ikuzo/ikuze but that's slang and not something that should come up in lessons, I wouldn't think.

 

[CornBurrito]

if that's true my girl students definitely have not hit that stage of japanese language speaking yet

やばいやばいやばいめっちゃやばい～！

和から編せんせいー～

I think I understand both of these.

"Fuck, fuck fuck, fuck, FUCK" for the first one, right?

and "hen" is just an Osakan "nai" right?

male friend of mine got lightly teased for using "watashi" instead of boku but I'm sure that's more of an instance of using overly formal language than gender stuff.

there's stuff like sugoi/sugei and ikuzo/ikuze but that's slang and not something that should come up in lessons, I wouldn't think.

Yeah I imagine its just overly formal. You aren't going to learn "shiraneeeeeeeeeeee" or "wakaneeee" or "zo" or "ze" in Japanese class.

 

[Jintor]

I translate やばい as "heck" since it doesn't seem to have the same weight as a fully-fledged F-bomb. That said it seems pretty usable in just about any situation that requires a minor expletive.

Yeah,　～へん is just osaka-ben for ～ない。

 

[Zoe]

I do think there's a slight intonation problem when guys are only learning from female teachers via parroting back phrases, but that's something that would get corrected with more exposure.

 

[MadraptorMan]

There may have been some slight issues with sounding too feminine early on, but I gotta say having a Japanese GF was one of the biggest reasons I got good at Japanese.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I think you're overstating it a bit. です with and without the hard "u" (think 'sue') are both super common and frequently used. It's certainly not limited to situations of ultra politeness or women.

Also, people are saying "shi" in your examples of Shitamachi and Shiteru, it's just not overly enunciated as if a person is saying "she."

Uh, yeah. That's exactly what I meant. If you sound out the kana you say "she tay ee ay roo", but instead people say something closer to "sh tay er oo." It's different. They don't completely excise the syllable, but you try to find a better way to describe the effect in text.

And yeah, Genki, Minna No Nihongo, Japanese for Busy People, et. al. will all teach you a form of Japanese that when spoken sounds super formal. They almost always opt for more formal forms of phrases, even if they're rarely used outside of the office (by men). A prime example is how they teach you しなければなりません to the exclusion of other, far more used forms, and never even touch on するべき. It's not wrong, it's just that people don't naturally speak like that unless they're a receptionist or a female teacher.

I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but it's true. Not trying to insult anyone or say anyone is learning the language the wrong way, but every course out there teaches you how to speak properly. Which in Japan means like a polite woman.

 

[Jintor]

just end everything with だ instead of です and we'll go from there

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Speaking like a woman isn't a bad thing. Maybe people are reading it that way? My point is, you don't want to actually do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8tEtsN1RYM

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Uh, yeah. That's exactly what I meant. If you sound out the kana you say "she tay ee ay roo", but instead people say something closer to "sh tay er oo." It's different. They don't completely excise the syllable, but you try to find a better way to describe the effect in text.

And yeah, Genki, Minna No Nihongo, Japanese for Busy People, et. al. will all teach you a form of Japanese that when spoken sounds super formal. They almost always opt for more formal forms of phrases, even if they're rarely used outside of the office (by men). A prime example is how they teach you しなければなりません to the exclusion of other, far more used forms, and never even touch on するべき. It's not wrong, it's just that people don't naturally speak like that unless they're a receptionist or a female teacher.

I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but it's true. Not trying to insult anyone or say anyone is learning the language the wrong way, but every course out there teaches you how to speak properly. Which in Japan means like a polite woman.

I don't see where you're getting the idea that polite equals woman. That's really not the case at all. しなければなりません is used plenty by both genders.

The textbooks aren't trying to teach you "how people really say it," because that's too fluid, too dependent on region, etc. I assume they just teach you a base level of accepted formality (neither too formal nor too casual) so you students can get started.

I do think there's a slight intonation problem when guys are only learning from female teachers via parroting back phrases, but that's something that would get corrected with more exposure.

Now this is something I've encountered a lot, but it's always because the guy in question has a female teacher or girlfriend/wife helping his studies and he doesn't spend very much time with Japanese guys.

 

[urfe]

You could say in casual situations some women are prone to continue using desu/mash, but at an office, and especially on the phone it's definitely a polite thing.

The only thing worse than a slightly feminine style of speaking is using "cool" slang when it's not appropriate.

Also, many people who learn Japanese in bars only never learn particles, which leads to not being able to use it in a professional setting with confidence.

 

[Jintor]

Hey, at least they can talk. My landlord just showed up and talked to me for about 5 minutes without me understanding anything other than "Portugal語", ”電気" (referring to my broken doorbell, I think he wants me to replace the batteries), ”電話番号” (something about my neighbour) and "和から変" (confirming that I didn't understand a thing he said).

Ah, Japan. Maybe next year this time I'll be able to actually ask him why he needs to talk to my neighbour so badly.

 

[Necromanti]

And yeah, Genki, Minna No Nihongo, Japanese for Busy People, et. al. will all teach you a form of Japanese that when spoken sounds super formal. They almost always opt for more formal forms of phrases, even if they're rarely used outside of the office (by men). A prime example is how they teach you しなければなりません to the exclusion of other, far more used forms, and never even touch on するべき. It's not wrong, it's just that people don't naturally speak like that unless they're a receptionist or a female teacher.

Genki never felt that restrictive to me, but honestly, that's not even an issue once you get past second year Japanese and get comfortable with most of the spectrum of formality. It's malleable once you have the foundations in place.

male friend of mine got lightly teased for using "watashi" instead of boku but I'm sure that's more of an instance of using overly formal language than gender stuff.

I think I'd personally take the teasing over conforming to gendered personal pronouns since I'd prefer to be gender-neutral, even if it's a modest step above informal. I hate "boku". I'd sooner dish out a「我は。。。」

 

[Nocebo]

if that's true my girl students definitely have not hit that stage of japanese language speaking yet

やばいやばいやばいめっちゃやばい～！

和から編せんせいー～

Is this a typo? Shouldn't it be 分からへん？

 

[Jintor]

probably, i just punched へん into IME

 

[Kansoku]

I'm having a little trouble with something. indigo la End's new album is titled ｢幸せが溢れたら」. I'm not sure if the たら here is a "when" or a "if", because both "When happiness overflows" and "If happiness overflows" would make sense. The line in the song who has this, makes me lean more on "if", but I'm not sure:

君の幸せが溢れたら少しだけ
許されような気がしてしまうよ

 

[RangerBAD]

I had to translate "Mary does not eat much."

I wrote "メアリーさんはあまりたべません。"

Is that correct?

 

[Jintor]

Seems fine. Polite form I assume

 

[RangerBAD]

Seems fine. Polite form I assume

Yeah, just wasn't sure if I needed a particle before the verb or not. My gut said it was right, but I'm just beginning and my gut could be wrong.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Yeah, just wasn't sure if I needed a particle before the verb or not. My gut said it was right, but I'm just beginning and my gut could be wrong.

You don't use the particle because there's no object.
メアリーさんはあまりたべません。
メアリーさんはすしをあまりたべません。

Since you're just discussing Mary's general eating habits without specifying what she's (not) eating, no particle is needed. Your gut was right, and that's the explanation for it.

 

[RangerBAD]

You don't use the particle because there's no object.
メアリーさんはあまりたべません。
メアリーさんはすしをあまりたべません。

Since you're just discussing Mary's general eating habits without specifying what she's (not) eating, no particle is needed. Your gut was right, and that's the explanation for it.

Yeah, that's why I was confused initially because there was no real direct object, but glad to know I did it right.

 

[Jintor]

I actually managed to read the 3 new headlines on NHK Easy without having to look up anything except 公演 which I'd never seen before. Progress!

Speaking still terrible tho

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I actually managed to read the 3 new headlines on NHK Easy without having to look up anything except 公演 which I'd never seen before. Progress!

Speaking still terrible tho

You work in Japan as an English teacher? How long have you been there?

 

[Jintor]

About six months. I was severely out of it for the first month or so though and got no study done.

Before I came here I could only read Hirigana and Katakana and basically knew nothing beyond that.

 

[urfe]

I'm having a little trouble with something. indigo la End's new album is titled ｢幸せが溢れたら」. I'm not sure if the たら here is a "when" or a "if", because both "When happiness overflows" and "If happiness overflows" would make sense. The line in the song who has this, makes me lean more on "if", but I'm not sure:

君の幸せが溢れたら少しだけ
許されような気がしてしまうよ

Could be both and I don't see the need to distinguish/translate personally (たら is たら!). Probably depends on the rest of the song to see if it's talking about hypothetical stuff or real stuff?

 

[GYODX]

I haven't checked any N2-level material yet, not looking forward to doing that based on what you guys say. N2 always gave off the impression of the "wall" between not usable and usable, because I read somewhere that some places accept N2 as a sufficient fluency level but N3 being too low.


Here's how it looks to me

I was a bit happy that I managed to read and understand everything on that page pretty effortlessly... then I clicked. I shouldn't have clicked.

Force yourself to read the first couple of pages: まえがき, はじめに and 日本語の文型の概観. I remember I started reading when I was barely into my second year of learning. I got used to the writing style pretty quickly.

 

[Aizo]

...working my way up to 庭三郎の現代日本語文法概説 (which I recommend to everyone at an advanced level).

Thanks for this. Started using it tonight.

 

[Jintor]

If OP is still being updated could someone shoehorn in http://jisho.org/ ? By far the most useful online JDICT I have primarily because I can also look up Heisig frames with it

 

[Kansoku]

If OP is still being updated could someone shoehorn in http://beta.jisho.org/ ? By far the most useful online JDICT I have primarily because I can also look up Heisig frames with it

FTFY

 

[Zoe]

Jim Breen's is an oldie but goodie.

 

[upandaway]

Force yourself to read the first couple of pages: まえがき, はじめに and 日本語の文型の概観. I remember I started reading when I was barely into my second year of learning. I got used to the writing style pretty quickly.

Hmm alright, I'll give it an honest shot once I'm out of test season. All I've been doing lately is keeping up my anki and reading NHK Easy on the bus, it's hard to find time

 

[stump sock]

FTFY

OMG