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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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stump sock
Member
can anybody help me understand "って"? In the context of a sentence with a quote or saying "X said..." I get it, but it gets sprinkled around in sentences sometimes where that interpretation wouldn't make sense.
I found a source that says "って can also take the place (and often does) of は when designating a subject. Used in casual speech." Is that all there is to it?
I didn't have an example ready, so I just kind of ganked this one from elsewhere: 人を好きになるってことはどういうこと？where, I guess, it's a substitute for という (according to the same page)
I found a source that says "って can also take the place (and often does) of は when designating a subject. Used in casual speech." Is that all there is to it?
I didn't have an example ready, so I just kind of ganked this one from elsewhere: 人を好きになるってことはどういうこと？where, I guess, it's a substitute for という (according to the same page)
Aizo
Banned
Correct, in that context, it is a colloquial substitute for という.
It's a substitute for 「と」、「という」、「というのは」、and 「とは」
って as は: 「男の人のそういう見栄って可愛いわ」(Taken from Shima Kousaku)
って as と/used at the end of sentences as a quoting particle meaning something like "that's what they said/are saying": 「今日遅くなるって」"They said they're going to be late"
I'm sure someone has more helpful examples or something.
stump sock
Member
Thank you, I'm glad it's not as complicated as I thought it might be. It's something that I come across a LOT on twitter/social media, and slang's hard to follow sometimes.
TheSporkWithin
Member
In my classes it was never required, but I used it at every opportunity anyway. Other students never used it. The only time we were required to use kanji was when turning in the kanji practice pages, which were assigned every two weeks or so.
I haven't got around to the practice pages, but I may do them now. My trouble is I need a finer pencil and I end up writing stuff too big, but I'm beginning to recognize what kanji means what. Did you write in the workbook or on Japanese lined paper or the like?
I make too many mistakes for a pen. lol
TheSporkWithin
Member
I practiced in a regular notebook, worrying less about legibility due to size than just getting the stroke order correct. That way when I write in a larger space it's no problem. You might also consider turning a notebook sideways to write "vertically," as most of the compression is on the vertical axis, not the horizontal. If you want to spend money on a special notebook for practicing, you can, of course, but definitely not strictly necessary.
Also, get a kuru-toga pencil. They're great.
So I don't make mistakes? That will never happen due to the lack of strength in my hands.
I was thinking about it, but just couldn't decide on a pencil. Any particular one?
stump sock
Member
the product page on amazon is so ridiculous that I can't NOT buy one
I think as soon as they started being introduced in the book, chapter 3 or so I think. We didn't lose too many marks for missing them but they were counted.
So you stop caring about making the mistakes.
You're learning a language, you're going to make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them
It has to be legible though, but my speed is increasing and my fear of mistakes is decreasing. I am learning from my mistakes. However, I'm not ready for a pen. lol
Well, I ordered this.
Aizo
Banned
Was it the diamond infused lead that got you?
~ようにする is giving me a headache, trying to figure out (well, memorise) the difference between Vpotential ようにする and Vdict ようにする... ugh.
Like, I kind of get it... but my brain is fried right now.
"Do towards appearance of ~" lol...
Like, I kind of get it... but my brain is fried right now.
"Do towards appearance of ~" lol...
MadraptorMan
Member
When I translate Vdictようにする to English, I usually just end up saying "try to _____ more," or something like that:
「今年の抱負は、毎日野菜を食べるようにする！」
Vpotentialようにする is more like "to make _______ be able to ____," or something to that effect, I guess:
「パソコンでLINEを使えるようにする方法」
Zoe
Member
Hmm... I think the bf might still have an account...
Aizo
Banned
Zoe
Member
Am I missing something? It's asking for my cell phone in step 3.
Edit: Oh, nvm, it HAS to be an .edu to bypass that.
stump sock
Member
So I'm trying to fix someone's translations in some fansubs and in the title crawl is this:
今よりほんの少し昔
まだ悩み相談を
どこかの知恵袋に
頼っていた頃
The bolded part is where I'm getting hung up. Something along the lines of "when we still relied on the wisdom [of others?] for [the answers to?] our problems"
Am I anywhere close?
(for reference, the original translation was "When you can still looking for answer of your problems anywhere," so you can understand why I'm trying to fix it)
今よりほんの少し昔
まだ悩み相談を
どこかの知恵袋に
頼っていた頃
The bolded part is where I'm getting hung up. Something along the lines of "when we still relied on the wisdom [of others?] for [the answers to?] our problems"
Am I anywhere close?
(for reference, the original translation was "When you can still looking for answer of your problems anywhere," so you can understand why I'm trying to fix it)
Splash Wave
Member
Can anyone help me clear up something simple?
I wrote this in my notes: "Kinoo no ban nani o tabemashitaka."
I know it's something along the lines of, "What did you eat for dinner last night?" But I'd like to know exactly how that translation works (if I'm right). Bonus points: I wrote "hiru" below this, but I don't know why.
I wrote this in my notes: "Kinoo no ban nani o tabemashitaka."
I know it's something along the lines of, "What did you eat for dinner last night?" But I'd like to know exactly how that translation works (if I'm right). Bonus points: I wrote "hiru" below this, but I don't know why.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
What show? Context?
Yahoo's Chiebukuro (Japanese Yahoo Answers) site immediately comes to mind, especially considering the どこか.
Might just be referring to that without calling out the actual name.
昨日 の 晩 何 を 食べましたか
きのう　の　ばん　なに　を　たべましたか
Kinou = きのう = Yesterday
no = の　= Noun1 の Noun2 = Noun1's Noun2 (roughly)
ban = 晩　＝　ばん = night, evening
Kinou no ban = Yesterday's evening/yesterday's night
Nani = なに = what
o = を　= Noun1 を Verb1 = Noun1 (is the subject of) Verb1
Tabemashitaka　= 食べましたか = ~past question form of 食べる (たべる
, or 'to eat'. (~ました　＝ polite past form of a verb, か = indicates questioning; therefore, 食べましたか = "~[someone] ate?"Nani o tabemashitaka = "What did you eat?"
Kinou no ban nani wo tabemashitaka = [lit. Yesterday's night, what did [someone] eat?] = What did you eat last night?
(Technically there is no person who is the subject of the sentence but by implication it's "you")
昼　= ひる = daylight, but probably in this case short for 昼ご飯 = ひるごはん = lunch.
stump sock
Member
甲殻不動戦記 ロボサン but the context is actually kind of irrelevant. Usually it's a little bit of flavor like "not long ago when x% was a good tax rate" or "when the cure for cancer was only a dream." I bet you're totally right about the Yahoo Answers thing, and that would definitely explain my confusion.
I should have just googled 知恵袋 instead of translating it :\
Splash Wave
Member
昨日 の 晩 何 を 食べましたか
きのう　の　ばん　なに　を　たべましたか
Kinou = きのう = Yesterday
no = の　= Noun1 の Noun2 = Noun1's Noun2 (roughly)
ban = 晩　＝　ばん = night, evening
Kinou no ban = Yesterday's evening/yesterday's night
Nani = なに = what
o = を　= Noun1 を Verb1 = Noun1 (is the subject of) Verb1
Tabemashitaka　= 食べましたか = ~past question form of 食べる (たべる
Nani o tabemashitaka = "What did you eat?"
Kinou no ban nani wo tabemashitaka = [lit. Yesterday's night, what did [someone] eat?] = What did you eat last night?
(Technically there is no person who is the subject of the sentence but by implication it's "you")
昼　= ひる = daylight, but probably in this case short for 昼ご飯 = ひるごはん = lunch.
This is exactly what I needed. Thank you!
Don't know if I've posted in this thread before.. but I am just adding it to my list. Started doing JP classes (once a week, too slow for my liking but only practical option) some months ago. I've learnt Korean to an advanced level and know I will benefit from looking at equivalent grammatical structures, but so far we're doing very basic conjugation. Mostly looking forward to starting on the Kanji because I feel handicapped until then.
stump sock
Member
Just anecdotally, it seems like a lot of classes are hesitant to get intense with kanji for a while. My own methods for learning kanji are pretty much just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks (Heisig, flash cards, apps, etc), but I'd say that the most effective tool for me so far has been http://kanjibox.net/ (and the ipad app). So if you're impatient to pick up some kanji, it can't hurt to do a few drills every day.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, sounds like it takes place in the future, and if your other example involved reminiscing about the old days, there's a good chance it's talking about how so many people turn to the Internet anonymously to try to get advice for their problems.
You probably know, but Japan loves to use semi-vague expressions when referring to specific things. どこかの～　某（ぼう）～ etc.
All the various forms of sentence endings like:
（VerbDict・VerbPast）＋（こと・よう）＋（に・を・と）＋（なる・する）
really drive me nuts. I've never seen a source that goes through all of them at the same time, and when I am taught them individually spaced out I can't seem to remember the differences, and they make little sense literally. I need to just sit down and make a chart of all the permutations.
I've been using kanjibox for a while with vocab, ever so slowly trying to get through the N2/N1 lists. Really helps my retention rates.
（VerbDict・VerbPast）＋（こと・よう）＋（に・を・と）＋（なる・する）
really drive me nuts. I've never seen a source that goes through all of them at the same time, and when I am taught them individually spaced out I can't seem to remember the differences, and they make little sense literally. I need to just sit down and make a chart of all the permutations.
I've been using kanjibox for a while with vocab, ever so slowly trying to get through the N2/N1 lists. Really helps my retention rates.
Aizo
Banned
I didn't know you knew so much Korean! Welcome to the thread! The similar grammar will help you a lot. Helped me understand Korean grammar haha.
わかるようになるよ！(^_^)
hitsugi
Member
any thoughts on the Risu Press JLPT kanji poster? http://www.risupress.com/jlpt-kanji-poster/
It's on sale for spring apparently.. still $20 shipped in the US but it might be neat to look at.
It's on sale for spring apparently.. still $20 shipped in the US but it might be neat to look at.
Any recommendations for learning kanji? Just to give a little background - bascially, I've worked and been using grammatical structures contained within an elementary text, so all the usual forms and stuff. I've pretty much worked through the entirety of it at this point, and so I'm ready to broaden my study. Hiragana and Katakana are fine (even if the kana is still really difficult to spell with!), and so after brushing up on everything I've learnt so far, I'm ready to hit kanji hard.
Any advice is appreciated!
Any advice is appreciated!
Use Heisig in conjunction with some kind of grammar vocab guide.
Even if you don't use Heisig, drill flashcards like fucking crazy, recommend using a spaced repetition system like Anki or Kanjibox or something. It's the only way you're going to memorise kanji and to a certain extent vocab, or at least get the grounding to keep going.
I'm by no means perfect with kanji recognition but I'd estimate I have a floating pool of about 1000 kanji or so I recognise instantly what they mean, if not necessarily what the word is. From there you can use them as building blocks to actually learn vocab and so on.
Heisig by itself will not seem very helpful, but as the foundation to properly learn vocabulary and to start trying to read things without furigana, I have found it invaluable. It means when you're introduced to new vocabulary you aren't immediately overwhelmed by having to learn meaning, kanji, and sound; you already know the kanji and the meaning, so you can just attach the meaning to the sound and go from there.
Seriously set aside some time per day to go through flashcards. Make it part of your routine. It helps.
Even if you don't use Heisig, drill flashcards like fucking crazy, recommend using a spaced repetition system like Anki or Kanjibox or something. It's the only way you're going to memorise kanji and to a certain extent vocab, or at least get the grounding to keep going.
I'm by no means perfect with kanji recognition but I'd estimate I have a floating pool of about 1000 kanji or so I recognise instantly what they mean, if not necessarily what the word is. From there you can use them as building blocks to actually learn vocab and so on.
Heisig by itself will not seem very helpful, but as the foundation to properly learn vocabulary and to start trying to read things without furigana, I have found it invaluable. It means when you're introduced to new vocabulary you aren't immediately overwhelmed by having to learn meaning, kanji, and sound; you already know the kanji and the meaning, so you can just attach the meaning to the sound and go from there.
Seriously set aside some time per day to go through flashcards. Make it part of your routine. It helps.
stump sock
Member
yeah it baffles me that anybody can learn strictly from Heisig but everybody's brains work differently. I just drill and drill and then sometimes as a supplement Heisig will help make some stick that didn't before. For my own purposes, making my own mnemonics is a billion times more valuable than trying to learn someone else's.
Like I mentioned earlier, I love Kanjibox. The web version is free so there's absolutely no reason not to sign up and give it a shot. if you like it, get the iOS version and some of the add-ons (kanji draw is great. it's kind of relaxing to just go through and write kanji, but it also really helps with memorization of radicals and learning not just stroke order, but stroke count, which is super important when it comes to using dictionaries).
But I think the most important thing is that, regardless of what method you find works best for you, be consistent with your training. Do it daily. do it twice daily. every single day. take 5 minutes out of your lunch, or before bed, run some drills. never let what you've learned have a chance to deteriorate.
Like I mentioned earlier, I love Kanjibox. The web version is free so there's absolutely no reason not to sign up and give it a shot. if you like it, get the iOS version and some of the add-ons (kanji draw is great. it's kind of relaxing to just go through and write kanji, but it also really helps with memorization of radicals and learning not just stroke order, but stroke count, which is super important when it comes to using dictionaries).
But I think the most important thing is that, regardless of what method you find works best for you, be consistent with your training. Do it daily. do it twice daily. every single day. take 5 minutes out of your lunch, or before bed, run some drills. never let what you've learned have a chance to deteriorate.
TheSporkWithin
Member
Heisig's biggest benefit is the way that it introduces the kanji in sets such that you learn a bunch of new kanji using each new radical in various ways. This makes remembering and recognizing the differences between similar kanji (and even the difference between similar radicals) much easier. The mnemonics he provides are almost all crap. The keywords he provides are often crap, or only cover one aspect of a kanji. The names and meanings he applies to many radicals are crap. Make your own.
Learn each kanji with Japanese keywords (a compound or two using the kanji) in addition to or even instead of English keywords, depending on your vocab level. Supplement it with lots of reading, or kanjibox, or other flash cards. RTK by itself is nearly worthless, but it will serve as a catalyst for pretty much any other learning method you use, vastly increasing the potency and retention.
That poster looks pretty awful. Unless you just want a bunch of kanji spread across your wall for some reason, it's not something that's going to actually help you learn.
If you want a good, physical, kanji-learning product, I highly recommend the White Rabbit Press kanji flash cards. They're incredibly well put-together, with a ton of information laid out in a really nice and useful way. You can quiz yourself based on readings, meanings, character recognition, and more, depending on how you use them. There are three sets, the first covers the kanji on JLPT 5 and 4, plus a bit of 3. It'll give you a pretty good idea of whether you want to invest in the next two volumes.
Learn each kanji with Japanese keywords (a compound or two using the kanji) in addition to or even instead of English keywords, depending on your vocab level. Supplement it with lots of reading, or kanjibox, or other flash cards. RTK by itself is nearly worthless, but it will serve as a catalyst for pretty much any other learning method you use, vastly increasing the potency and retention.
That poster looks pretty awful. Unless you just want a bunch of kanji spread across your wall for some reason, it's not something that's going to actually help you learn.
If you want a good, physical, kanji-learning product, I highly recommend the White Rabbit Press kanji flash cards. They're incredibly well put-together, with a ton of information laid out in a really nice and useful way. You can quiz yourself based on readings, meanings, character recognition, and more, depending on how you use them. There are three sets, the first covers the kanji on JLPT 5 and 4, plus a bit of 3. It'll give you a pretty good idea of whether you want to invest in the next two volumes.
stump sock
Member
I have some of these. They're really nice and also reasonably priced.
I don't think any effort to memorize individual meanings is really necessary. I've been learning using whole compound words and eventually you pick up on the readings for unknown words pretty well automatically. After a few thousand vocab words you pick up a bit of intuition on the irregular cases too.
Not to say that learning readings in isolation is a waste of time, but if you just go in and start learning vocab with kanji, that kind of takes care of itself.
I learned kanji (常用
using RTK 1. Heisig has one major benefit to me:- an optimized order that instead of going by frequency/school grade, organizes the kanji learned by their individual components so that you only learn 1 new thing at a time. Sometimes called n+1.
If you are going down this road and have accepted the fact that you are going to need to know 2k~3k kanji to read, you might as well learn them in the best possible order. Frequency or by school grade might get you reading basic stuff a little quicker, but in the long run makes learning the upper levels much harder. There is such a thing as RTK Lite that at ~1200 frames you can get through a little quicker, if need be.
It does have a few gotchas as you mentioned. While the standardized names are helpful in learning, many have little/no relation to how they are used in the real world. You figure this out overtime after having a few words behind you. Also, as you said, his stories are crap. Often he uses names for components that are just too vague, like the "person" radical in 何, and the "state of mind" radical in 悩. His book even stops giving you stories by frame ~700 or so, and relies on you to make up your own for the rest. Also, for a lot of people the method itself just doesn't work. It isn't for everybody.
There is a website though, that has no official relation to the book but really complements it - http://kanji.koohii.com/. It has a DB of user-created stories for each of the kanji in the book (actually any kanji represented in unicode really) and the community there does a much better job of naming radicals and coming up with creative stories than I ever could.
At the end of the day though, realize that RTK1 is designed to teach you how to write the kanji first and foremost, how it helps you read and learn vocabulary is more of a side benefit. As time goes on, all the heisig definitions and names will fade away and you won't need them anymore. You will retain a familiarity with the writing system such that looking at kanji will no longer be scary, no matter the complexity. RTK2 is supposted to teach you how to read them, but that book is generally regarded as terrible, to which I would agree.
Yeah I don't even remember what my little radical names and mnemonics were, but what I did take from it was how to differentiate kanji. Before doing that, everything above 10 strokes looked like gibberish.
After I got an eye from kanji all of that information disappeared and now I just learn the vocabulary straight. I should probably review stroke order once in a while though, but it's already so time consuming man, I don't know.
After I got an eye from kanji all of that information disappeared and now I just learn the vocabulary straight. I should probably review stroke order once in a while though, but it's already so time consuming man, I don't know.
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