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The brilliance of the FFVI opera scene and why Final Fantasy has lost its way

A

Azure Dream

Member
Completely personal, but when I was a kid, I felt like the crossdressing/Honey Bee Inn sequence in 7 was really out of place for the series. Of course, I wasn't aware of how much was being cleaned up for the US releases, and I wasn't that avid a FF player until 6, but I just remember it like the series was trying too hard to be mature for the PlayStation. I put off playing through it for some time.

Of course, now that I'm grown up I can see how goofy and lightweight it is.

Edit:
Oh right, except for when Cloud has a breakdown in that one room.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Agreed, OP. It seems like modern JRPGs are too focused on making everything feel "epic" a every turn to actually have fun. Every JRPG I played in childhood had me laughing my butt off. Some, like Shadow Hearts, even had the gall to smack the main villain with a miscellaneous rock in his moment of glory. It feels like developers aren't actually having fun making these games anymore, and consequently I'm not having fun playing them.
 
J

JWong

Banned
The opera scene is very charming. It also was a cutscene that was, in a way, player controlled. Nowadays, we just get some overdramatic cutscene to watch and nothing special to do.

It's like FF7's Date scene, or FF8's prom scene. The FF13 series is just devoid of that kind of free-roaming, feel-good moments.
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Sola Scriptura said:
I am in complete agreement that FF takes itself way too seriously nowadays. I suspect the reason for a decline in humor has to do with technological advance. Back when they were using sprites, they were quite limited in the range of emotions they could portray graphically with any given character, so exaggerated expressions were typically the norm in order to convey what the character was feeling. In such a context, humorous expressions with accompanying in-game humor makes sense.
Click to expand...

This isn't even limited to sprites. I remember reading an article on 1UP a while ago about things that couldn't possibly be recreated in a remake of FF7, like the scene where Barret throws Biggs at the screen towards the beginning of the game. The early Final Fantasies making use of - even taking advantage of - limited technology had its own charm to it, to be sure.
 
M

Meccanical

Member
SolVanderlyn said:
This isn't even limited to sprites. I remember reading an article on 1UP a while ago about things that couldn't possibly be recreated in a remake of FF7, like the scene where Barret throws Biggs at the screen towards the beginning of the game. The early Final Fantasies making use of - even taking advantage of - limited technology had its own charm to it, to be sure.
Click to expand...

The thing with limited technology is that it forces you to be creative.

When that goes away you get a lot of soulless crap.
 
L

Locke_211

Member
The opera scene and Ultros showing up are silly.
Sazh and the chocobo, along with the general aesthetic of FF10-2, are Silly. The capitalisation indicates an attempt to be funny but without any genuine charm behind it, or something.
And when I was 15 I loved the scene because the singing bit was very deep and worthy. Now I'm 29 I love the opera scene because ultros showing up is wonderfully anarchic and deconstructive.
 
P

Pop-O-Matic

Banned
The franchise lost it's way long before FF6. Final Fantasy 1 is the only game that really fulfills Sakaguchi's vision, since it had the most freedom and least hand-holding.
 
S

Shinjica

Member
7351478433


Best moment ever
 
S

scytherage

Member
They just have to make the characters likeable and interesting. At the start of FF13 Lighting just wants to save the world. You, the player, start out just not caring about her mission at all.

Instead of focusing on such huge goals from the get go, they should just make the characters seem like everyday people dealing with short term problems. They can then build all kinds of emotions out of that, be it humor or other things. They shouldn't be dealing with OMG EPIC issues from the start, it just prevents players from being able to relate with the characters. It should build up from the beginning from small problems. I don't know why Square has completely forgotten that.
 
M

Meccanical

Member
scytherage said:
They just have to make the characters likeable and interesting. At the start of FF13 Lighting just wants to save the world. You, the player, start out just not caring about her mission at all.

Instead of focusing on such huge goals from the get go, they should just make the characters seem like everyday people dealing with short term problems. They shouldn't be dealing with OMG EPIC issues from the start, it just prevents players from being able to relate with the characters. It should build up from the beginning from small problems. I don't know why Square has completely forgotten that.
Click to expand...

Square hasn't forgotten that.

Toriyama has.

All your problems, all of anyone's problems, points to that man and his team.
 
Dreamer RD

Dreamer RD

Member
Still haven't cleared that game. I have PS3 ver from psn - is it tolerable or garbage like Chrono Trigger? (in terms of loading times)
 
A

Anustart

Member
Final Fantasy 3(6) is my favorite in the series, the Opera Scene is my least favorite scene in all of the FF's I've played. No clue why it's loved so much, probably just because it's different and people grasp at anything outside the norm no matter if it's good or bad.
 
T

The_Endless

Member
The greatest thing about FFVI's opera scene is that it could have been exactly the sort of plodding, non-interactive movie scene that later FFs thrived on, were it not for the genius of one man - Hiroyuki Ito.

From Ito's wikipedia:
He was also responsible for the structure, pacing and flow of the entire game and tried to strike a balance between the gameplay and event scenes so the game didn't feel too story-driven. He did this by mixing event scenes with gameplay and also making the player constantly have to explore the world map to get to new areas that would advance the story. An example of him mixing event scenes with gameplay is in the Opera House. The player has to interactivity enter the correct lyrics for Celes Chere and also perform some of her stage movements; they then have to run around the building as Locke Cole to reach and battle Ultros, who was attempting to sabotage the show. The original event scene for the Opera House by Yoshinori Kitase had no player interactivity apart from pressing the "A" button after each dialogue box and Ultros didn't even show up at the location. Ito decided modify it by adding more player interactivity in an effort to balance the story with gameplay.
Another example is the dining meeting with Emperor Gestahl. The original event scene by Kitase had the player going straight into the dining room and taking a seat and then just pressing the "A" button after each dialogue box until the dining meeting was over. Ito modified it so the player had to first explore and speak to all the soldiers within a time limit, some of which would even want to battle. After the time was up, they then automatically participated in the dining meeting and were given various choices of dialogue to say to Emperor Gestahl during the course of the conversation. Depending on how many soldiers they spoke to before the dining meeting and their dialogue choices to Emperor Gestahl during the conversation, they were given a number of rewards by the Emperor's attendant after the meeting was over. Hiroyuki Ito believes that making events scenes require player interactivity allows for greater player immersion and therefore makes the world feel more like a real place and not just a backdrop of a story.
 
turnbuckle

turnbuckle

Member
KMD said:
Final Fantasy 3(6) is my favorite in the series, the Opera Scene is my least favorite scene in all of the FF's I've played. No clue why it's loved so much, probably just because it's different and people grasp at anything outside the norm no matter if it's good or bad.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's why.
 
M

Mentallyerect

Neo Member
FF6 is the pinnacle of the series in my eyes. There is just so much good to that game, so many memorial moments. The world was so unique and every single character was great. Heck, the game even had secret characters. I was floored when I had found that out back in those days. Also, the fact that one of the most bad ass characters in the game could be killed off at a particular point in the game is something special for its time. Game is just classic, I can't wait for a 3ds remake (hopefully using Bravely Defaults engine)
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
Pachterballs said:
lol.

did he get banned for this?

I quite liked FFVI. the old vanguards.

just all round good.
Click to expand...

Thread whining is bad.

Goli said:
Agreed 100%! Gosh, I wish more people'd play it and see her brilliance so maybe the people behind FFD got a bigger budget.
Imagine a game in the vein of FFD for a home console... *sigh*
Click to expand...

Alba is the best. Her play with Gramps was hilarious. "I'm Clou-" "Yeah yeah and I'm Aerit-"

Manmademan said:
IV? lol. I think you misspelled "7." IV was largely complete when it was made- it took a LOT of effort to come up with a plausible excuse for a sequel there, and what they came up with really wasn't all that great, proving the point.

7 got three side stories (before crisis, dirge of cerebus, and crisis core) AND a movie, X got a sequel in X-2, and XII got a sequel in revenant wings. In context, two sequels for XIII isn't really that big of a deal.

Say what you will about the quality of XIII, but it had a lot of very loose ends, unexplored territory and history that could justify another game. The pre-sony installments really don't, and they're largely better games for it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here, but it doesn't seem relevant to what I'm saying. And we're apparently operating in separate contexts as well. XII having a sequel is utterly irrelevant to what we're talking about, because I already mentioned IV having one.

Say what you will about XIII having loose ends and unexplored territory and history, but XIII-2 explored none of that, and XIII-3, by all material presented looks like it will explore even less.

MrMephistoX said:
I'll never get why some people prefer Terra to Celes between this and the sequence with Cid later on...
Click to expand...
Because Terra can go Super Saiyan, pilot a giant robot, fly, and doesn't need no man to get through her prabulums.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
KMD said:
Final Fantasy 3(6) is my favorite in the series, the Opera Scene is my least favorite scene in all of the FF's I've played. No clue why it's loved so much, probably just because it's different and people grasp at anything outside the norm no matter if it's good or bad.
Click to expand...

Maybe try reading the thread?
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
I think part of the reason why Square started taking the series so seriously is because players started to take it so seriously first. Like this:
I liked XIII, but there's no denying that its legacy in the series is forever tainted by its deep flaws.
Click to expand...

Speaking of 13, there is a deal of some attempt at humane touches here and there, Lightning mellows out from time to time, there's attempts at funny banter and background action comedy in some cutscenes... notice that I say attempts because the writers and directors do not appear to be in touch with how people actually act, but it's still a better attempt than X ever was so maybe Toriyama is learni--- ah nope, couldn't keep a straight face.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
KMD said:
Final Fantasy 3(6) is my favorite in the series, the Opera Scene is my least favorite scene in all of the FF's I've played. No clue why it's loved so much, probably just because it's different and people grasp at anything outside the norm no matter if it's good or bad.
Click to expand...

Because it was unexpected, the sound was amazing at the time coming out of a snes and it made me care more about the characters involved. They could have just lined up another generic copy past dungeon as pretty much all modern games would have done. They didn't.

Those little touches are what I remember about a lot of games.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
The Opera Scene was bleh and Celes was bleh.

I liked it.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
Frumix said:
I think part of the reason why Square started taking the series so seriously is because players started to take it so seriously first. Like this:


Speaking of 13, there is a deal of some attempt at humane touches here and there, Lightning mellows out from time to time, there's attempts at funny banter and background action comedy in some cutscenes... notice that I say attempts because the writers and directors do not appear to be in touch with how people actually act, but it's still a better attempt than X ever was so maybe Toriyama is learni--- ah nope, couldn't keep a straight face.
Click to expand...

FFXIII is like Darth Vader: Mostly evil but there's still good in him. FFXIII-2 is like Anakin Skywalker: Allegedly a good guy but nobody likes him because he's pretty much worse in every way.

Rinoa said:
Opera scene and everything leading up to/after it = right in da feels



Who is the blond guy with him? Shadow?? Cuz sure aint Cyan..
Click to expand...

The blond guy is Edgar. Who was not in that scene, and doesn't wield swords like that (though Edgar can wield swords.) Behind him is Locke, who also wasn't there.

Unless of course this is a rematch against the Phantom Train.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
FFXIII-2 is like Anakin Skywalker: Allegedly a good guy but nobody likes him because he's pretty much worse in every way.
Click to expand...
I've heard it's a better game.
Most criticism towards FF these days is about cutscenes anyway.
 
R

Rinoa

Member
CorvoSol said:
The blond guy is Edgar. Who was not in that scene, and doesn't wield swords like that (though Edgar can wield swords.) Behind him is Locke, who also wasn't there.

Unless of course this is a rematch against the Phantom Train.
Click to expand...

Weird, I guessed Edgar at first but then... sword, like you said. I assumed the dude behind was like a train conductor or something looool.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
Frumix said:
I've heard it's a better game.
Most criticism towards FF these days is about cutscenes anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd say it's better.

Pluses: Now you can switch party leaders in battle
Noel is better than half the playable cast in XIII.
Live Trigger is a fun way of letting the player have some (minor) influence over dialogue, particularly when it allows you to be dumb.

Failed pluses: Lots of super cool boss fights! In the DLC Colosseum
Two (three?) HD TOWNZ! That are largely empty.
Time Travel! To the same areas with different weather effects.

Minuses: OH GOD THE STORY. If I hadn't played The Third Birthday I'd call it the worst story in any video game ever. SO BAD.
HEY DO YOU LIKE LIGHTNING TOO BAD.
Do you like PCs? HAVE GENERIC MONSTERS INSTEAD.
OH GOD THE MINIGAMES.
Who needs exploring when we can make you retread the same map six times?
OH GOD CHOCOLINA.
DAT FRAMERATE
DOSE CAVEMAN FACES
Hey check out how Noel and Hope stand two inches from each other and stare right at each others' crotches the whole conversation!
ORANGE TANG QTES.
And so on.
 
L

Luthos

Member
Rinoa said:
Opera scene and everything leading up to/after it = right in da feels



Who is the blond guy with him? Shadow?? Cuz sure aint Cyan..
Click to expand...

Looks like Celes with Locke behind her. Which doesn't make sense in where that happened in the game.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
ronito said:
But I'd like for Square to be brave enough to be like "You know what? You're in an opera now. And you're going to have to fight a purple octopus because it'll be good for you." again.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think that the kind of person who is playing FFVI today asking for this kind of scene in modern FF games would be the first to mock it, and be totally unsatisfied by it. Purple octopus in an opera house? Some things just don't work in modern, photorealistic games. Why? It would look really, really stupid.

And yeah, XIII-2 had lots of comedy in it actually. No one seemed to give the game any credit for it. There are comedy scenes all over, a comedy dialogue option in every NPC conversation, comedy options in one boss fight even, at least one comedy ending, and Mog, a comic relief character.

I saw people mock most of this. Instead Versus is the most anticipated game seemingly, and it looks even more dark and serious in tone than XIII was.

I think instead of making checklists of things "FF has to have for me to like it," people should just play the games for what they are and try and have a good time.

CorvoSol said:
And yet the Ultros DLC worked just fine in FFXIII-2.
Click to expand...

It's not integrated into the game at all and is just an optional thing with no real significant story.

And let's not forget how many people hated this song. That was going for comedy clearly, and tons of people flipped their shit and couldn't take a joke at all.
 
C

CorvoSol

Member
Shinta said:
Honestly, I think that the kind of person who is playing FFVI today asking for this kind of scene in modern FF games would be the first to mock it, and be totally unsatisfied by it. Purple octopus in an opera house? Some things just don't work in modern, photorealistic games. Why? It would look really, really stupid.
Click to expand...

And yet the Ultros DLC worked just fine in FFXIII-2.

You know what DID look really stupid, though?
Hope and Noel standing there crying over a dead moogle while perky music played.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
Yep the series is a hollow shell at this point. Its identity and legacy stripped down to naming things with familiar titles. Advent Children opened a pandoras box on the series. It's pretty much Sonic'd at this point.

Besides the opera scene in VI, I always loved the cross dressing in VII.
 
Riposte

Riposte

Member
It is a little unfair to assume everything you could do with sprites on a weird spatial plane and minimal realism can be applied to videogames today. I think there is more suspension of disbelief (visually speaking) going on with FF6 than there is any cartoon. Something like the opera scene would look pretty stupid (and be more jarring if the game is still as serious as FF6 is in a modern context). Maybe it could work with FFXI or FFXIV, given we more inclined to forgive the weirdness of MMO movement. Would be appropriate too, because FFXI and FFXIV both have more charming and funny writing than the older FFs and serves as a legacy to that kind of game (e.g. Ultros would fit right in next to Shantotto).
 
S

Sapphire Dreams

Member
VI was never my favorite, I understand why people love it but it not my favorite, and this scene felt stupid even from a comedic point of view.

my favorite part of VI are by far the last two hours of the game.
 
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