Vault Dweller 111
Member
I mean, they could.
Do you think they should go out of their way just to change a role, cast a minority actor, and check a box?
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The Coen Brothers: Questions about diversity are "idiotic"
- Thread starter Inferno313
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Do you think they should go out of their way just to change a role, cast a minority actor, and check a box?
gutter_trash
Banned
Bardem is not a visual minority. He's a caucasian from Spain
……forgetit
Member
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
So ask them about there entire catalog of movies. Ask a thoughtful question and you may get a thoughtful answer. Ask a dumb question get a dumb answer.
Do they have a duty to include minorities in their stories?
Junior Asparagus
Member
I saw the movie. I'm one of the minorities they're talking about in their quote. It didn't bother me. I mean, I'm sure they could write some part for a minority character, but this movie doesn't feel strange without one.
And there are DEFINITELY Jews in this movie. One of the funniest scenes involves discussing religion and the rabbi steals the scene.
Anyway, it's not their best movie, but it was enjoyable. There are definitely better targets for the whole race issue though.
And there are DEFINITELY Jews in this movie. One of the funniest scenes involves discussing religion and the rabbi steals the scene.
Anyway, it's not their best movie, but it was enjoyable. There are definitely better targets for the whole race issue though.
Maybe we should wait to see the movie?
To me, it sounds like they're saying that they set out to make a good story (set in 1940 hollywood). And depending on the circumstances in the story for that time, maybe there wouldn't be any black character in a prominent role.
From what I can gleam from the trailers, it looks like the movie deals a lot with hollywood execs and prolific hollywood actors, so it's understandable that there wouldn't be a black character in a prominent role.
I mean, they've casted lots of non-white people in their movies plenty of time when the story demands for it. See No Country for Old Men where the main antagonist is a badass Latino.
I think their comment isn't well put together cause they probably felt attacked for something they don't see themselves as.
To me, it sounds like they're saying that they set out to make a good story (set in 1940 hollywood). And depending on the circumstances in the story for that time, maybe there wouldn't be any black character in a prominent role.
From what I can gleam from the trailers, it looks like the movie deals a lot with hollywood execs and prolific hollywood actors, so it's understandable that there wouldn't be a black character in a prominent role.
I mean, they've casted lots of non-white people in their movies plenty of time when the story demands for it. See No Country for Old Men where the main antagonist is a badass Latino.
I think their comment isn't well put together cause they probably felt attacked for something they don't see themselves as.
The US already invaded Mars?
There's nothing to see here. If you actually read the article in full and in its proper context, they make an absolutely valid point, specifically about their movie. Disappointing how quick many are to take the topic title at face value and instantly act indignant at the 'white privilege' of it all. If you're reading the article and still come away offended, I don't get it.
SomedayTheFire
Member
There's a discussion to be had. About the role of minorities in film.
If their justification is that they don't write stories and characters with a race in mind, then I don't see why not?
Nappuccino
Member
Writing ethnic characters can be a catch 22. You don't do it, and people will complain. You do it, and people will complain.
I don't think it's the Coen Bros. Responsibility to put ethnic characters in their movies (they might not feel comfortable, worries they will make caricatures instead of characters), but maybe they should use some of their clout to help ethnic filmmakers get their movies made.
Also, they need to learn how to respond without sounding like shits. Be specific, and don't compare other ethnicities to martians. It's not hard.
I don't think it's the Coen Bros. Responsibility to put ethnic characters in their movies (they might not feel comfortable, worries they will make caricatures instead of characters), but maybe they should use some of their clout to help ethnic filmmakers get their movies made.
Also, they need to learn how to respond without sounding like shits. Be specific, and don't compare other ethnicities to martians. It's not hard.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Yep. If they don't write for race why do all of the characters have to be the one race. It also pretty much destroys the "period piece" argument some are making imo.
Inferno313
Banned
Yep. White isn't a default.
Chuckie
Member
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Pretty much agree with this one. Let the writers write what they want to write. I don't think it's their job to please anyone. As if like it's not difficult enough to write something interesting and get it published...
And they chose to frame that in the most idiotic way possible.
This. It shows a total lack of perspective.
And honestly:
That does seem to suggest that, to an extent, they seem to think there are stories for white people and stories for people of color and that "whiteness" is a necessary default in a lot of their characters, given their track record. That is a little strange and it's a part of the current problem in Hollywood to think that you have to sit down and imagine a character must be a certain ethnicity in order to cast anyone who isn't white automatically.
I get that this film is about the golden era of hollywood, but there were non-white people working behind the scenes in various capacities by then. It wouldn't have been impossible. It just never occurred to them. That's the honest answer right there in their "how stories are made" defense. They didn't think of anyone but white people when they sat down to write because most of their life and media experience is of white people. That's how most Hollywood stories are made.
Inferno313
Banned
I don't think the Coens have had to worry about that for a long time though.
About that. I'm not going to suggest that 1940s Hollywood was a bastion of inclusion (and most of those films on the list didn't get a wide release) but like:
These aren't some obscure films. Cabin in the Sky was even nominated for an Oscar
The woman from The Ladykillers?
MrRudiMentary
Member
I do agree with the sentiment. The idea that we should shit on a movie just because it doesn't have any minority parts is a stupid one. Yeah, it sucks that minority actors have far less parts than white actors but the answer here isn't to shit over someone's hard work just because they're not fighting the good fight hard enough.
However I think what they were saying was worded really poorly and was never not going to lead to offending people.
However I think what they were saying was worded really poorly and was never not going to lead to offending people.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Getting published not but that doesn't make the writing process any easier. If you'd ever try to put a story on paper yourself you'd know.
QuantumZebra
Member
This is certainly true.
The "well it was the time-period" argument really fails to hold water under scrutiny most of the time.
The article mentions that their only non-white main characters have been in No Country for Old Men and Ladykillers and I personally couldn't think of any others.
So this is about 50% of it.
Inferno313
Banned
No one here is shitting on the movie though? I plan to see it on Sunday, and I'm sure it'll be a great time.
You can still like a thing or a creator's work and feel that they could be doing better in certain areas.
FonkyByNature
Member
Exactly my thoughts. They sound a little aggressive and putting martians and dogs into it makes them look kinda ignorant.
Hollywood definitely needs to represent Americans better, it's not about white people only anymore and the society needs to call them out on it. Jewish people though are well represented since Hollywood is mosly Jewish but blacks, arabs, muslims ? hell no.
captainnapalm
Member
They're basically arguing from a position of artistic freedom and the responsibility of the artist to be true only to his own creative process and write and create the characters that he or she feels compelled and inspired to write.
They're saying they would never come at the writing process from a position of 'I need to make this movie so that it will have x, y and z in it'. Only people who don't understand the creative process believe you can approach art in this way.
The Coen Brothers commitment to their own voice and inner muse has made them two of the finest filmmakers of their generation. It's frankly absurd to question their credentials or to insinuate there might be anything shady about their decision not to use more diverse casts.
They're saying they would never come at the writing process from a position of 'I need to make this movie so that it will have x, y and z in it'. Only people who don't understand the creative process believe you can approach art in this way.
The Coen Brothers commitment to their own voice and inner muse has made them two of the finest filmmakers of their generation. It's frankly absurd to question their credentials or to insinuate there might be anything shady about their decision not to use more diverse casts.
ReplacementPelican
Member
There's a staggering level of ignorance with the people supporting 'let's the writers write' and 'so they should just check boxes!?' wherein I find it impossible that they can't understand that this isn't or shouldn't be the case. Casting a minority actor should not be akin to affirmative action or forced by studios but it should be something that just happens, not thought about to prove a political point.
I love the Coen brothers and I'm sure that they thought the 'Martian' line was very clever. It wasnt. It was stupid and whilst I understand their whole point about this movie I feel much the same everyone in this thread who has expressed interest in why their films are predominantly skewed towards casting one race in almost every major role.
It's a shame but these people aren't necessarily so smart on their feet (directors, actors, musicians, etc...) and it's clearly just a fuckup.
I love the Coen brothers and I'm sure that they thought the 'Martian' line was very clever. It wasnt. It was stupid and whilst I understand their whole point about this movie I feel much the same everyone in this thread who has expressed interest in why their films are predominantly skewed towards casting one race in almost every major role.
It's a shame but these people aren't necessarily so smart on their feet (directors, actors, musicians, etc...) and it's clearly just a fuckup.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Quick question, who is shitting on it? Minority journalist asked a question relevant to her experience, Coens gave an answer and people are responding to that.
RubberJohnny
Banned
He's right - this whole drive for minority quotas in the US at the moment is pretty clearly tackling the symptoms rather than the actual problem itself.
It seems the US doesn't want to tackle the actual problems like not linking school and police funds to property taxes which entrenches privilege and poverty, so is going for these not-really-solutions instead.
It seems the US doesn't want to tackle the actual problems like not linking school and police funds to property taxes which entrenches privilege and poverty, so is going for these not-really-solutions instead.
Why? Is there some mandate? Maybe they don't have any stories about black people to tell. Maybe all the stories they have in them are about white people. You operate under the assumption that one starts a story with some sort of checklist.
As I said earlier, the road to more diversity in Hollywood is fighting to open up avenues for more diverse creators. But that's hard. So this kind of low effort pestering is a very alluring alternative.
VendettaRed07
Member
The lack of diversity in movies like Hail Caesar probably wouldn't be brought up if Hollywood didn't regularly go out of their way to avoid casting minorities in roles where they belong. How often does Hollywood whitewash stories where the main character was black or Asian ?
Perhaps if these guys werent such smug, elitist pricks.. They'd understand such an obvious point of criticism and where it comes from
Perhaps if these guys werent such smug, elitist pricks.. They'd understand such an obvious point of criticism and where it comes from
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
How they framed it, makes perfect sense for a movie that is written and directed by just two people and not a committee. The Coens make the movies THEY want to make and they've been so successful at it they can easily finance them. This is different from movies and tv series that are not author driven, but market driven. Modern TV series often have large diverse, even multinational casts in order to target various demographics and international audiences. That's a far cry from what the Coens are doing. They consider themselves artists and they're not going to change one bit of their story for diversity's sake.
That's not what they were asked though. They were asked about minorities in their film, with seemingly little thought to whether it was a relevant/appropriate discussion to their film. It oversimplifies and therefore hurts the broader discussion when context is ignored.
Diversity is an important talking point, of course. But its place in film IS very much about context. I wouldn't expect the makers of The Revenant to respond to a challenge about the Bechdel test anymore than I would expect the makers of Saw to respond to a challenge about the representation of the LGBT community. As it pertains to the Coen brothers and this film, I can understand their frustration.
SomedayTheFire
Member
But then they're not writing characters without race in mind. They're writing white characters, which was not their answer.
Let's be honest here. There are answers they could have given that could suggest that they gave this some thought at some point before being asked this and becoming incredibly defensive. This is a story set in the 1940s, which were a very racist time in Hollywood and they didn't want to have a token minority character that they felt did too much to erase this racist past of the industry they're a part of. They didn't want to write another black janitor. They didn't see a solution this time, but they are looking for ways to be more inclusive in their next film. Just ... anything at all that suggests that they give a shit -- and understand that there is a difference between black people and Martians.
These answers would have still been slightly bullshit, but would have indicated a thoughtfulness that shows they actually take time to consider the existence of people other than white people during their creative process.
They didn't do that. Because that's not how their creative process works. People certainly understand that now.
Like, honestly, I'm seeing this movie on Saturday. But this response is embarrassing.
These answers would have still been slightly bullshit, but would have indicated a thoughtfulness that shows they actually take time to consider the existence of people other than white people during their creative process.
They didn't do that. Because that's not how their creative process works. People certainly understand that now.
Like, honestly, I'm seeing this movie on Saturday. But this response is embarrassing.
Funyarinpa
Member
The thing is, I think it sort of is. Not that it SHOULD be that way, but I feel like nowadays the inclusion of any minority character in media creates an expectation that the said work (book/movie/etc) will deal with that minority's backstory because they're a minority. White characters don't create that expectation. That's my interpretation of it though.
Also, due to the prevalence of white roles, it's possible that people subconsciously assign whiteness to a default role.
I think increasing representation of minorities is a good thing to do, but isn't mandatory. Having an overwhelming majority of characters be white or black doesn't make the work worse, IMO.
Inferno313
Banned
So when people like Idris Elba, or Ava Duvernay speak about diversity and inclusion, it's because they don't understand the creative process?
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Case in point, Finn From the new Star Wars movie.
That's a pretty unfair point. If you make a movie about the white slacker subculture like the Big Lebowski to just include people because they are minorities would make no sense. The Coens make very special movies sometimes, so just counting would be a weird thing and also quite unfair.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
It's not absurd to question them on it when they really do have a lack of minority parts in thier films. Maybe they don't need to approach the creative process that way, but at least question themselves on why the default cast of characters they write are usually white.
Seems almost an aggressively defensive answer.
Seems almost an aggressively defensive answer.
What? A symptom is what's happening with the Oscars. Filmmakers actually play a huge role in who gets cast in a movie. This is going for one of the sources of the problem.
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