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[OCASM]

I thought it would be fun to have a thread exclusively dedicated to compiling downgrades. It doesn't have to be just graphics, it can be cut content, concepts, etc...

I'll start with one of the biggest graphical ones: Metal Gear Solid 4. Let's see its reveal trailer:



Now let's look at the retail game:


Let's compare:

- 1080p at 60fps vs 1024x768 at 30fps (with some sections running at 20fps).
- Soft stencil shadows vs low res shadowmaps.
- Snake's model is 60K vertices (about 30K triangles) JUST FOR THE HAIR ALONE vs 16K triangles (about 30K vertices) for the ENTIRE MODEL.
- Lighting, shading and post-effects were severely cut down. (Translation here).

Basically, the retail game looks about a generation below what was shown in the reveal trailer. How could such a technically competent studio be so off in their target for the PS3? The answer is at the end of the reveal trailer: Kojima fell for Sony's lies about the KZ2 pre-rendered video being an actual tech demo of the PS3's capabilities.

 

[The_Mike]

LLooks like shit today, but looked kinda good back then.

 

[Fermbiz]

 

[Beer Baelly]

Ubisoft/close thread.

 

[rofif]

as much as I love DS2 and I think the final game got some fantastic looking locations, this has to take the cake graphically. Such a shame

 

[Trunx81]

Ubisoft and Forspoken/close thread.

ftfy

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

 

[Doczu]

Yeah MGS 4 falls into the same category like all the other bullshot games: Killzone and MotorStorm come to mind, but the list is longer.
That's all to be said

 

[ckaneo]

Forspoken was suppose to be a graphical showcase. Huge shame.

Too this day Ratchet and Clank is the only game visually I have seen that couldnt be done on the PS4. Probably.

Insomniac has some big shoes to fill with Spiderman 2 cause this generation has been meh so far.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

The most painful downgrades for me were Watch Dogs and Witcher 3. Dark Souls 2. Forspoken downgrade was some BS as well. Seems to me Gotham knights was downgraded twice on consiole: the first was the pre-launch to the retail version and then the devs added dynamic resolution post launch which softened it up some more from the native 4k it should've been. Game kinda sucks but it at least looked good when it was 4k/30 ...hate when devs do that.
Another one that bothers me in retrospect is Last of Us part 2 from the e3 2018 demo to release the enemies looked so incredibly lifelike but the retail game their faces in particular lost a ton of detail. Game got a pass because it was still such a looker.

 

[LectureMaster]

I would be more than satisfied if the next Witcher game has the trailer graphics.

 

[radewagon]

Concept Art:

Finished Game:

It's enough to make you want to cry like an anime fan on prom night.

 

[LectureMaster]

Didn't see much attention brought up for this one and I think it really is a pity. The graphics in the trailer seem plausibly achievable on the next gen consoles.

 

[feynoob]

 

[hussar16]

Many games even today look and use that one flat lighting model . Shaders have Ben turned down on many games and seem to be the main thing that gets downgraded. We saw this in witcher 3 where they had to implement a whole new lighting model and delay it for a year to run on console

 

[hussar16]

If it released on pc first like witcher 2 it would look like this vgx trailer and release in 2014

 

[Ulysses 31]

I thought it would be fun to have a thread exclusively dedicated to compiling downgrades. It doesn't have to be just graphics, it can be cut content, concepts, etc...

I'll start with one of the biggest graphical ones: Metal Gear Solid 4. Let's see its reveal trailer:



Now let's look at the retail game:


Let's compare:

- 1080p at 60fps vs 1024x768 at 30fps (with some sections running at 20fps).
- Soft stencil shadows vs low res shadowmaps.
- Snake's model is 60K vertices (about 30K triangles) JUST FOR THE HAIR ALONE vs 16K triangles (about 30K vertices) for the ENTIRE MODEL.
- Lighting, shading and post-effects were severely cut down. (Translation here).

Basically, the retail game looks about a generation below what was shown in the reveal trailer. How could such a technically competent studio be so off in their target for the PS3? The answer is at the end of the reveal trailer: Kojima fell for Sony's lies about the KZ2 pre-rendered video being an actual tech demo of the PS3's capabilities.

With MGS4 wasn't it the case of Sony downscaling their final PS3 hardware specs significantly?

 

[Husky]

Didn't see much attention brought up for this one and I think it really is a pity. The graphics in the trailer seem plausibly achievable on the next gen consoles.

Is that Dying Light 2? That downgrade looks massive
I wonder how The Witcher 3's remastered release compares to E3.

Watch_Dogs is the most I've been burned by a downgrade. On PC you can re-enable some of the E3 effects via an XML file, because the game was intentionally downgraded for parity with consoles. Unfortunately you can't restore every missing effect, and some effects were only completed in certain areas (dynamic shadows for bushes and trees). Plus the trailer's scripted intersection crash was much more interesting than the actual crashes in the game (and that gas station explosion, wowie).

 

[Buggy Loop]

Oh so many. I don't understsand why devs do this to themselves. It doesn't help. It's like being catfished. Soon as the version drops there's then discussions around the downgrade, it can't be good marketing i imagine.

Square Enix and Ubisoft the thread. But Dark souls 2 stings the most.

A classic :

Another kind of downgrade, they removed the original version of DQ XI from Steam/PSN. I don't believe you can even buy the original on a digital store nowadays? What were they thinking.

 

[Tommi84]

At least those games released.

My vote goes to Deep Down.

We went from this:

To this

 

[The Janitor]

Far Cry 3, the jungle looked so much more lush and dense in the E3 demo.

 

[mrmustard]

 

[Kilau]

Another kind of downgrade, they removed the original version of DQ XI from Steam/PSN. I don't believe you can even buy the original on a digital store nowadays? What were they thinking.

Switch version hit everyone with the ugly stick, still irritated about it.

 

[Fafalada]

I'll start with one of the biggest graphical ones: Metal Gear Solid 4. Let's see its reveal trailer:

I mean - yes there were clear downgrades (particularly target framerate), but some of it is a bit of a stretch.
Stencil shadows were killed for the same reason Halo 2 did (and the same way - from demo->retail) it just wasn't something that scaled terribly well to modern GPU architectures - PS2 was the last bastion that was actually good at it.
And polygon optimizations are a normal thing - the more time you have with a model, the more effective the triangle use can get.
Ie. while the hw original demo was on was a cut above PS3 in many ways - I expect both of these would have been changed for retail game regardless.

The final bit only mentions HDR being cut from FP16 to a smaller packed format (which was ultimately - the standard for PS3 era consoles). The rest is general implementation details - they don't share what demo did (if anything) differently.

Basically, the retail game looks about a generation below what was shown in the reveal trailer. How could such a technically competent studio be so off in their target for the PS3?

That's been pretty standard fare for launch titles back in the era. HW changed substantially enough every generation that projecting before receiving the real-hw was always fraught with errors. Not every case had a public-reveal demonstrating how they misjudged - but it's something that plagued most launch titles back then.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

If it released on pc first like witcher 2 it would look like this vgx trailer and release in 2014

Indeed.
Also, open world was a mistake.

 

[OZ9000]

Oh so many. I don't understsand why devs do this to themselves. It doesn't help. It's like being catfished. Soon as the version drops there's then discussions around the downgrade, it can't be good marketing i imagine.

Square Enix and Ubisoft the thread. But Dark souls 2 stings the most.

First image looks a generation ahead - PS6 graphics if you will.

 

[LectureMaster]

Is that Dying Light 2? That downgrade looks massive
I wonder how The Witcher 3's remastered release compares to E3.

Watch_Dogs is the most I've been burned by a downgrade. On PC you can re-enable some of the E3 effects via an XML file, because the game was intentionally downgraded for parity with consoles. Unfortunately you can't restore every missing effect, and some effects were only completed in certain areas (dynamic shadows for bushes and trees). Plus the trailer's scripted intersection crash was much more interesting than the actual crashes in the game (and that gas station explosion, wowie).

Yes it is Dying Light 2, the game looks a lot nicer in close up gameplay and details, but the city overview was just atrocious. I believe the screenshot was taken on 4K ultra high settings.

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

At least those games released.

My vote goes to Deep Down.

We went from this:

To this

F in chat

 

[hyperbertha]

Far Cry 3, the jungle looked so much more lush and dense in the E3 demo.

Glad someone brought this up. Far cry 3 reveal vs final game is about as bad as watch dogs.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Indeed.
Also, open world was a mistake.

The Witcher 2 is the better game imo. It's better paced, no padding nor a thousand map markers to visit. Just a good game.

 

[MarkyG]

Ubisoft being the ultimate culprits of "target render" or "vertical slice" - or as we, normal, everyday folk like to call it: "bait and switch"

Of course, we can't forget one of the bigger ones out there, Aliens: Colonial Marines.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

Glad someone brought this up. Far cry 3 reveal vs final game is about as bad as watch dogs.

I’m not to miffed about that one, cause it still looked damn good for a PS/360.
The biggest one for me is White Knight Chronicles. When that game was revealed I was blown away by the framerate, animation and how filled out and meaty everything looked.
What a fucking shame…

 

[EDMIX]

If it released on pc first like witcher 2 it would look like this vgx trailer and release in 2014

doubt.

I mean its on PC right now, how come it doesn't look like that?

They even "remastered" it, how come it doesn't look like that even after?

So....doubt. I don't think it was ever going to look like that cause I don't even think that was a real running thing, I think its why you don't see it looking like that on PC or the remaster on stronger hardware etc. It likely never existed in the first place.


SlimeGooGoo Maybe, maybe not. The team likely targeted something thinking that they could scale it in a bigger world and were unable to.

I don't blame open world for that btw, look at AC Valhalla, Odyssey, Ghost Of Tsushima, Red Dead Redemption 2 etc I blame CDPR for that. They as a team were merely unable to do, so maybe for them open world is just too much or too complex for them or something, but clearly others have found success in that area on a technical level. Shit its why they are even switching to a 3rd party engine. So I don't know if I can blame the hardware, open world or anything like that as many did open world games that didn't have those same issues last gen.

 

[simpatico]

Alan Wake was a big one for me. For years of hype we were promised this awesome, pseudo open world game where you try to solve a mystery as a horror writer. Fresh off of Max Payne 2, this was supposed to be huge. What we ended up getting was just a hallway shooter. Like something you'd imagine tacked on as a cheap extra mode to the game that was promised. It's still a fun hallway shooter than I enjoyed playing, but merely an appetizer compared to what was expected.



Bioshock Infinite was another one who's downgrade was more than just lighting. Almost exactly the same promise vs delivery as Alan Wake.



Both were still fun and playable, but could have been all time classics.

 

[hyperbertha]

 

[hyperbertha]

Anybody remember the og version of splinter cell conviction? lol

 

[Dorago]

W3 is a great game but this downgrade is why I waited until the GOTY went on sale to finally play it. Worth the weight.

 

[Knightime_X]

Isn't most downgrades due to dev kits being 2x-3x stronger than actual hardware?
I always wondered why not use a 1:1 dev kit for accuracy.

 

[hyperbertha]

Isn't most downgrades due to dev kits being 2x-3x stronger than actual hardware?
I always wondered why not use a 1:1 dev kit for accuracy.

That'd probably leave absolutely no leeway for testing. Especially initial unoptimized code would be unplayable.

 

[Dorago]

I was so diappointed in DS2 that I traded it in two days after buying it. I finally played SotFS in 2021. It's infinitely better as a catalog title you can get for $10.

 

[simpatico]

Anybody remember the og version of splinter cell conviction? lol

That game got a lot of hate for the DRM and change of direction, but I thought it was a fun little sneaky action title. If it had a different title and main character I think it would have done well. Not what I want from Splinter Cell though.

 

[stranno]

The first game I recall to be famous by the E3>Retail downgrade was Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier. Don't get me wrong, in the end it was a great game, but the E3 demo was very different and much better than the final game in some areas. It really exists, Borman has the build and tested it extensively.

Anybody remember the og version of splinter cell conviction? lol

The unreleased (and completely unknown until the rom leak) DS version had the original story. It's somewhat buggy, but can be completed.

 

[OCASM]

LLooks like shit today, but looked kinda good back then.

TBF that level of smoke simulation is something we still won't see this gen.

With MGS4 wasn't it the case of Sony downscaling their final PS3 hardware specs significantly?

It's the common version but I think it's more due to Sony's insane lies to devs. The next couple of trailers already had cut down models but still had advanced shading and lighting. Sadly they ran at about 20fps so those had to be axed too.

I mean - yes there were clear downgrades (particularly target framerate), but some of it is a bit of a stretch.
Stencil shadows were killed for the same reason Halo 2 did (and the same way - from demo->retail) it just wasn't something that scaled terribly well to modern GPU architectures - PS2 was the last bastion that was actually good at it.
And polygon optimizations are a normal thing - the more time you have with a model, the more effective the triangle use can get.
Ie. while the hw original demo was on was a cut above PS3 in many ways - I expect both of these would have been changed for retail game regardless.

The final bit only mentions HDR being cut from FP16 to a smaller packed format (which was ultimately - the standard for PS3 era consoles). The rest is general implementation details - they don't share what demo did (if anything) differently.

Stencil shadows were indeed on their way out, however the quality of shadows in the final game is piss poor compared to the original trailer.

Optimizing models is normal, cutting the level of detail to a tiny friction for your highest LOD model isn't.

Lighting changes are pretty obvious, no HDR in interiors (hence why they look so flat), simple PS2-like object shading, etc...

That's been pretty standard fare for launch titles back in the era. HW changed substantially enough every generation that projecting before receiving the real-hw was always fraught with errors. Not every case had a public-reveal demonstrating how they misjudged - but it's something that plagued most launch titles back then.

Yes we saw downgrades, even on early 360 games like Gears, but none of anywhere near this magnitude.

 

[Killer8]

The really baffling thing about MGS4 was how washed out the final game's colors were. I thought I was playing in the wrong RGB color space at first.



The E3 2006 demo, which had already been hit by the downgrade stick at that point, had much more contrast and more garish color tone (which people claimed looked like a 'piss filter' at the time). But I found that far more preferable to what we ultimately got.

This is a 5 minute Photoshop job messing around with just a few settings like contrast, exposure, saturation and color balance:

 

[T4keD0wN]

Thats not fair, it hasnt even released yet. They still have plenty of time to do futher downgrades.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I would be more than satisfied if the next Witcher game has the trailer graphics.

Respect yourself. You deserve better.

 

[Fafalada]

Stencil shadows were indeed on their way out, however the quality of shadows in the final game is piss poor compared to the original trailer.

That had more to do with industry at large not knowing how to work with shadow-maps in general. Pretty much that entire gen was defined by dreadful shadow quality as result (by the time cascades were actually getting used properly - we were already on PS4/XB1).
And when everyone is at the same level - it's easier to justify not doing much about it.

Optimizing models is normal, cutting the level of detail to a tiny friction for your highest LOD model isn't.

It's normal when the original polycounts were so stupidly balooned you still wouldn't use them in 2023 games.
To give two similar examples - I can think of a racing game on PS2 started with models going up to 30k polys with individually modelled screws inside the wheels (yes, inside, not just what was visible) - and shipped with LOD0s around 10k instead. And an XBox 360 RPG at some point had a scene with a handful (yes, just a handful) of fully modelled trees that consumed over 2M polys by themselves.
That kind of waste isn't a downgrade to optimize out - it's common-sense.

Yes we saw downgrades, even on early 360 games like Gears, but none of anywhere near this magnitude.

That was my point - in most dev-cycles these types of things are not shown publicly, MGS4 was a rare case of showing their hand way too soon.
But it was very common to overshoot early on in concept stages when noone really understands the hardware yet.
It's only changed in last decade as the hw in consoles now basically behaves and performs largely the same - so projecting your budgets is mostly a numbers game, there's very little left to discover.

 

[Spyxos]

Ah I totally forgot, I remember I was so disappointed back then. Well, with Forspoken we have a game without lighting again.

 

[Grizzled Ghost]

The Witcher 2 is the better game imo. It's better paced, no padding nor a thousand map markers to visit. Just a good game.

Also one of the best intro cutscenes of all time.