Support NeoGAF

[Rentahamster]

None of the societies you have listed were free from religion. You have not done this

That's why I clarified further by elaborating on the divinely commanded via authority part. You don't have Zeus telling Plato to observe the Sabbath. The kami of the rice paddies of Japan don't tell its citizens that masturbation is sinful.

Christianity and its moral teachings, are the reason the West has become so successful. The fruits of that success has spread to the rest of the world.

You are going to have to show a source from this.

Christianity is only one part of many in the success of Western civilization. And that was due to cherry picking which parts to follow and which parts to ignore.

Decline of Christianity in the Western world - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

studies do not prove the lack of God, though, which is my point.

That part was to also demonstrate that it doesn't rely on belief either, since those are two different things.

 

[Rentahamster]

I think one of the reasons things are way more polarizing in these areas now is precisely because of a major shift for many people away from firm, strong morals and values, which is something of a direct result from lack of some semi-stable religious structure in their lives. Religion has never been inherently a bad thing, but there have been people screwed up in the head that've used religion to their own bad purposes. Especially among younger people, there's a big lack of religion among them and I think that helps foster an environment where nihilism, narcissism and ego can run rampant (social media being no help in this).

Thank you for your insights on morality, Mr thicc girls are best

 

[neobiz]

I'm not traversing 3 pages of GAF

What is your definition of god?

 

[Rentahamster]

That's exactly it... morality is like relativity. There is no exact right or wrong down here on the lowly human plane of existence. Even in societies that don't believe in god exactly will deify something in his place. God is not like us, we are just made in his image. The ideal of good is a concept used to explain behavior in fellowship with god. The idea of evil is an action in opposition of god. That's it. Everything else is clown shoes.

I do not keep The Sabbath. That's in opposition to God. Is that evil?

 

[Sign]

That's why I clarified further by elaborating on the divinely commanded via authority part. You don't have Zeus telling Plato to observe the Sabbath. The kami of the rice paddies of Japan don't tell its citizens that maturation is sinful.

You've yet to provide an example of a country that did not have religion from the beginning that was a success. Let's start there.

Christianity is only one part of many in the success of Western civilization. And that was due to cherry picking which parts to follow and which parts to ignore.

Seems like you are shifting goal posts. "It helped, but not that much!"

Decline of Christianity in the Western world - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Unless you can give me actual world wide data demonstrating that Christianity is declining in total numbers, this is just anecdotal. In fact it is like I said originally, these countries have benefited from Christianity, think they don't need it anymore, and are in decay.

That part was to also demonstrate that it doesn't rely on belief either, since those are two different things.

Are we talking about belief or existence, because the thread title says existence.

If God exists then all things derive from Him.

 

[Rentahamster]

You've yet to provide an example of a country that did not have religion from the beginning that was a success. Let's start there

I've provided examples of societies that didn't have rules mandated from a god yet still managed to derive a code of ethics that served their society well.

Unless you can give me actual world wide data demonstrating that Christianity is declining in total numbers, this is just anecdotal. In fact it is like I said originally, these countries have benefited from Christianity, think they don't need it anymore, and are in decay.

Polls are anecdotal?

Are we talking about belief or existence, because the thread title says existence.

Both.

You can derive a code of morals with or without a god.

I am not going to own other humans as property because I value human life and self determination and individual liberty. See? Easy.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm not traversing 3 pages of GAF

What is your definition of god?

Definition of GOD

the supreme or ultimate reality: such as; the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[neobiz]

Definition of GOD

the supreme or ultimate reality: such as; the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I didn't ask mirriam fucking webster

 

[Thurible]

The original humanist book “Utopia”

Wait, are you refering to the book by St. Thomas More? I never thought that the book represented any humanistic ideals, but was more of a criticism of the feudal state. Also, I don't think the Utopia described by St. Thomas More neccessarily represented the ideal government, though he presents Utopia as being virtuous in some areas (they have no greed or use for gold or such decadance, and in fact use those for lavatories), it isn't without fault (no lawyers and the place is comprised of many different religions with Christianity not placed really any higher than the other native religions. St. Thomas Moore was a devout catholic and a lawyer). I always thought of it as more of a thought experiment and inward dialogue for and against differing political systems, but that is just me.

 

[Rentahamster]

I didn't ask mirriam fucking webster

You might as well have because that's the text I would write.

 

[neobiz]

You might as well have because that's the text I would write.

I'm bored then and your thread sucks then

Deuce bitch

 

[Sign]

I've provided examples of societies that didn't have rules mandated from a god yet still managed to derive a code of ethics that served their society well.

Give a single country, just one, that did not have religion as a base. Until you do, this entire conversation is a hypothetical.

Polls are anecdotal?

If we are talking about global decline of Christianity, you have to show a global decline. I'm talking total numbers.

Both.
You can derive a code of morals with or without a god.

Then list a single country that has done so without religion.

I am not going to own other humans as property because I value human life and self determination and individual liberty. See? Easy.

And Christianity thanks you for your patronage.

 

[Mistake]

China was never godless. Want to guess which of their gods get the most prayers today? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caishen

 

[MetalAlien]

I do not keep The Sabbath. That's in opposition to God. Is that evil?

Actually if you study the bible all the commandments are just there to illustrate how far we are from god. They are not ment to be a road map to get to him. So yes unless you follow all those rules all the time, for ever and ever and never ever slip up once, you are evil.

That is the whole point of Jesus, he can't sin, he lived the perfect life in your place. He took your punishment and you take his reward. You are sinless in the eyes of god forever.

Anyway that is how it is written. Doesn't mean it's all true.

 

[O-N-E]

The metrics depend on whom you ask. In modern western society, as serveral posters here also subscribe to, the metrics are freedom and happiness.

Well, this is laughable.

Happiness, life expectancy, health, wealth, deaths, illness, poverty, access to clean drinking water, access to health care, etc - these are all objective, measurable data points we can use to determine if our moral codes are working as intended. If the intention, of course, is to maximize those numbers.

Big brain atheist moment right here.

As long as a society has specific values in mind that it wants to maximize, a moral framework can be constructed to maximize those values. That is very real.

Values that we as a society prioritize, and are able to do so with or without the existence of a god. Both atheists and theists can cherish these principles for their own reasons. Don't you think so?

Because as a society we value the exercise of free will and do not condone coercion in most cases,

Me? Her? The law? It's good that we as a society don't deem those morally sound reasons. I'm sure glad for that "Thou shalt not rape" commandment.

You're working off of a faulty paradigm. If a Creator doesn't exist, you live in a deterministic universe and no morals exist aside from your imaginary ones. If a Creator exists, free will can exist, and with it, absolute morality. Your society doesn't matter.

I've gone through your interactions with DunDunDunpachi and you've got nothing, really.

Atheism isn't a short cut to intellectual prowess, kids.

 

[Rentahamster]

Give a single country, just one, that did not have religion as a base. Until you do, this entire conversation is a hypothetical.

First of all, the premise of the thread is not that religion is not necessary. It's that a god isn't necessary. I explained the difference earlier. "religion" does not appear in the thread title, but "god" does. And I already have examples.

If we are talking about global decline of Christianity, you have to show a global decline. I'm talking total numbers.

So am I. Just look at the individual country numbers too. Christian numbers are falling, but they are healthier and as non violent as ever. Japan has hardly any Christians in it at all and yet Tokyo is in the top 10 of safest cities in the world.

Christianity thanks you for your patronage.

The Bible actually condones slavery. I thank my own reasoning skills for this moral decision.

 

[Mistake]

It’s not needed for morals, no, but I understand its uses. I don’t have problems with it in the modern age

 

[Azurro]

Are we talking about belief or existence, because the thread title says existence.

If God exists then all things derive from Him.

If you postulate God exists then it's on you to prove it, and that your particular brand of God is the correct one.

As for the thread title, I am not necessarily in agreement. Religion is kind of the fast food version of morality, packed and marketed in an easily digestible way and provides a sense of community, ready made and put on a shelf at the supermarket for your consumption.

Societies looked to gods in the past, and still do, because there are gaps of their knowledge and it's easy to throw god into those. As societies progress, they become less and less necessary, as people need to look to gods much less as their immediate needs are more easily covered and have less desperation in their daily existence.

 

[Sign]

First of all, the premise of the thread is not that religion is not necessary. It's that a god isn't necessary. I explained the difference earlier. "religion" does not appear in the thread title, but "god" does. And I already have examples.

All the countries you listed have Gods that helped determine morality. Just name one country, man! One that has not had a God /Gods. If morality sprouts from nothing, this should not be hard.

So am I. Just look at the individual country numbers too. Christian numbers are falling, but they are healthier and as non violent as ever. Japan has hardly any Christians in it at all and yet Tokyo is in the top 10 of safest cities in the world.

Japan was nuked for its transgressions in WW2 and was promptly rebuilt by a Christian nation.

It also has the presence of religion and Gods which helped determine its morals.

The Bible actually condones slavery. I thank my own reasoning skills for this moral decision.

And you would be wrong.

We are also talking about Christianity and the NT

Some Initial Reflections on Slavery in the New Testament | Bible.org

1. Slavery in the first century was quite different from slavery in early American history. For one thing, Roman slaves were either taken as the spoils of war or were such because they sold themselves into slavery (known as "bond-servant"). They were often well-educated (cf. Gal 3:24 in which...

bible.org

If you postulate God exists then it's on you to prove it, and that your particular brand of God is the correct one.

I'm not looking to prove God exists in this thread. I was merely pointing out that the premise kids knowing "right from wrong" whatever that may have been (no study was provided) didn't disprove God.

As for the thread title, I am not necessarily in agreement. Religion is kind of the fast food version of morality, packed and marketed in an easily digestible way and provides a sense of community, ready made and put on a shelf at the supermarket for your consumption.

The life of a Christian is infinitely more demanding than that of an atheist, all things being equal. Most religions require far more out of the individual than an atheist lifestyle. I agree that it helps foster community, though.

Societies looked to gods in the past, and still do, because there are gaps of their knowledge and it's easy to throw god into those. As societies progress, they become less and less necessary, as people need to look to gods much less as their immediate needs are more easily covered and have less desperation in their daily existence.

There has never been a purely secular society in the history of humanity. The ones that have tried to jettison their religions have been responsible for some of the worst human atrocities. There hasn't been a single example given in this entire thread of a country and that began secular, developed secular, and prospered secular.

What we see right now is hubris. And it has led to woke-puritan crazies, communists, and in places like Europe, Islam.

Societies do not "outgrow" religion. They decay and collapse.

 

[Rentahamster]

Actually if you study the bible all the commandments are just there to illustrate how far we are from god. They are not ment to be a road map to get to him. So yes unless you follow all those rules all the time, for ever and ever and never ever slip up once, you are evil.

That is the whole point of Jesus, he can't sin, he lived the perfect life in your place. He took your punishment and you take his reward. You are sinless in the eyes of god forever.

Anyway that is how it is written. Doesn't mean it's all true.

It doesn't seem odd to you that a just and moral code deems you evil for working on Sundays (or Saturdays, depending on whom you talk to)? Does that seem rational? Fair?

How can a divinely inspired work not all be true? Does that seem like something an infinitely wise creator would create?

 

[Rentahamster]

Well, this is laughable.

Big brain atheist moment right here.

Do you have an argument? Care to elaborate?

You're working off of a faulty paradigm. If a Creator doesn't exist, you live in a deterministic universe and no morals exist aside from your imaginary ones. If a Creator exists, free will can exist, and with it, absolute morality. Your society doesn't matter.

Is this Creator so powerful as to be omnicient and omnipotent? I mean, he'd kinda have to be to create the universe. Do you agree?

 

[O-N-E]

Do you have an argument? Care to elaborate?

Yeah, that thing you quoted.

Is this Creator so powerful as to be omnicient and omnipotent? I mean, he'd kinda have to be to create the universe. Do you agree?

Don't be coy. Spit it out.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yeah, that thing you quoted.






Don't be coy. Spit it out.

That's laughable, and big brain aren't reasoned arguments.

Don't be coy. Answer the question please.

 

[MetalAlien]

It doesn't seem odd to you that a just and moral code deems you evil for working on Sundays (or Saturdays, depending on whom you talk to)? Does that seem rational? Fair?

How can a divinely inspired work not all be true? Does that seem like something an infinitely wise creator would create?

Well like I said... it was suppose to illicit the very response you are having. The idea that the rules are unfair to normal people... impossible to follow. It's just to show you it is impossible for you to be perfect like god. This idea that most movies get wrong for example is that if you try to be good you can get into heaven when really you have no hope of getting there on your own.

After Jesus came along he reduced all the rules to just one. The do onto others rule. He was very specific though to remind people the 10 commandments still apply but after you get saved you can finally stop worrying about it so much and just focus on doing to others as you have them do to you.

That is why the veil in the temple was torn (when Jesus died on the cross). Before only a priest who had been thoroughly cleansed through symbolic animal sacrifice could enter the holy of hollies. Now that Jesus died for us anyone would be welcome.

 

[O-N-E]

That's laughable, and big brain aren't reasoned arguments.

Don't be coy. Answer the question please.

Ok, if I've gotta be the big boy:

You're working off of a faulty paradigm. If a Creator doesn't exist, you live in a deterministic universe and no morals exist aside from your imaginary ones. If a Creator exists, free will can exist, and with it, absolute morality. Your society doesn't matter.

 

[Rentahamster]

All the countries you listed have Gods that helped determine morality. Just name one country, man! One that has not had a God /Gods. If morality sprouts from nothing, this should not be hard.

I already gave you two. Did Zeus dictate what was right and wrong to the Greeks? Why is it that when we consider the Ancient Greeks and their notions of democracy which form some of the basis of our modern notions of democracy, do we relate that more to the origins of philosophy, debate, and quorum? Or to Athena or Persephone, or Neptune?

What are the main key differences between democracy, theocracy, and dictatorship? No need to elaborate deeply, just a few sentences.

Japan was nuked for its transgressions in WW2 and was promptly rebuilt by a Christian nation.

It also has the presence of religion and Gods which helped determine its morals.

Neither Buddhism, nor Confucianism, nor Shinto command morality via authority and supernatural edict. These are different. There is religion, but not a god-mandated framework of morality as described in my premise.

And you would be wrong.

We are also talking about Christianity and the NT

You don't think the Old Testament counts?

 

[Rentahamster]

Well like I said... it was suppose to illicit the very response you are having. The idea that the rules are unfair to normal people... impossible to follow. It's just to show you it is impossible for you to be perfect like god. This idea that most movies get wrong for example is that if you try to be good you can get into heaven when really you have no hope of getting there on your own.

After Jesus came along he reduced all the rules to just one. The do onto others rule. He was very specific though to remind people the 10 commandments still apply but after you get saved you can finally stop worrying about it so much and just focus on doing to others as you have them do to you.

That is why the veil in the temple was torn (when Jesus died on the cross). Before only a priest who had been thoroughly cleansed through symbolic animal sacrifice could enter the holy of hollies. Now that Jesus died for us anyone would be welcome.

That's not the rule. The rule is that you have to believe in Him. Do people who do well unto others but reject Christ get into heaven?

 

[Rentahamster]

Ok, if I've gotta be the big boy:

You're working off of a faulty paradigm. If a Creator doesn't exist, you live in a deterministic universe and no morals exist aside from your imaginary ones. If a Creator exists, free will can exist, and with it, absolute morality. Your society doesn't matter.

Which is why I asked you if this Creator is both all knowing and all powerful. Is He?

 

[MetalAlien]

That's not the rule. The rule is that you have to believe in Him. Do people who do well unto others but reject Christ get into heaven?

Not according to the bible.

 

[O-N-E]

Which is why I asked you if this Creator is both all knowing and all powerful. Is He?

Hypothetically speaking, leaving my own beliefs out of it - at minimum, as far as your reality is concerned, yes the Creator knows all and can do all to your reality. Why did you assume a gender though?

WHERE'S THE GOTCHA, THOUGH?

 

[Rentahamster]

Not according to the bible.

Is that fair? Is that justice? Do you think most people would consider that a moral act?

 

[Rentahamster]

Hypothetically speaking, leaving my own beliefs out of it - at minimum, as far as your reality is concerned, yes the Creator knows all and can do all to your reality. Why did you assume a gender though?

I didn't assume a gender. I'm paying respects to how God is traditionally referred in Christian doctrine.

You can't leave your own beliefs out of it. This is why I'm asking you. What do you think? What do you believe?

 

[Tesseract]

thoughts create man (not the other way around), which means every story of creation is fairly arbitrary

this provides wiggle room for aggregates of people to establish systems of universal morality without god

 

[Tesseract]

values rooted in the circuitry for caring and sacrifice tend to shape the moral landscape / time

plenty of animals and insect operate with moral motivations and codes of conduct similar to humans

 

[O-N-E]

I didn't assume a gender. I'm paying respects to how God is traditionally referred in Christian doctrine.

You can't leave your own beliefs out of it. This is why I'm asking you. What do you think? What do you believe?

Stop the Gotcha boycott.

Give us the Gotcha, dammit.

 

[Rentahamster]

Stop the Gotcha boycott.

Give us the Gotcha, dammit.

Can you answer the question please?

 

[O-N-E]

Can you answer the question please?

Assume the answer is yes and go ahead.

 

[MetalAlien]

Is that fair? Is that justice? Do you think most people would consider that a moral act?

Nope. God is not us... he will never make complete sense. Does it make sense that if you travel away from one source of light and towards another, that both rays of light arrive at you at the same speed? Your speed does not add or sub track to the speed of a ray of light no matter if you travel away or towards it.

Our perception of what is happening (or right and wrong) breaks down after a certain point.

 

[Rentahamster]

Assume the answer is yes and go ahead.

Is this your own belief as it pertains to the reality you inhabit?

 

[Rentahamster]

Nope. God is not us... he will never make complete sense. Does it make sense that if you travel away from one source of light and towards another, that both rays of light arrive at you at the same speed? Your speed does not add or sub track to the speed of a ray of light no matter if you travel away or towards it.

Yes it does make sense. We've observed and measured this and have proof that this is how reality works.

Our perception of what is happening (or right and wrong) breaks down after a certain point.

It's only limited by our ability to measure it. We've gotten much better at this over the last 3000 years.

 

[O-N-E]

Is this your own belief as it pertains to the reality you inhabit?

Not sure why you NEED this to be my belief rather than a valid argument on its own. I have no actual problem saying "yes", it is indeed my belief that an Omnipotent being created us, I was just trying to dig into the need for that factoid on your part. Why is that necessary for your gotcha?

Spit it out now dear boy.

 

[MetalAlien]

Yes it does make sense. We've observed and measured this and have proof that this is how reality works.

It's only limited by our ability to measure it. We've gotten much better at this over the last 3000 years.

We undertand it works like that... that does not mean it makes sense. It only gets weirder after that. I am not a christian BTW...

 

[Rentahamster]

Not sure why you NEED this to be my belief rather than a valid argument on its own. I have no actual problem saying "yes", it is indeed my belief that an Omnipotent being created us, I was just trying to dig into the need for that factoid on your part.

There's no "need" for any of that. You're being very coy and indirect with your answers when you talk about assumptions and other people's beliefs. Formal discourse works better when both parties can ask and answer directly.

Alright then, if you believe that the Creator is omnipotent and omniscient, does that also mean He knows everything you will do?

 

[Rentahamster]

We undertand it works like that... that does not mean it makes sense. It only gets weirder after that. I am not a christian BTW...

Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, but it makes sense to those who have studied this deeply.

The thesis of this thread doesn't require you to be of any particular belief in order to come to a conclusion on the topic.

 

[MetalAlien]

Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, but it makes sense to those who have studied this deeply.

The thesis of this thread doesn't require you to be of any particular belief in order to come to a conclusion on the topic.

Defies intuition, doesn't make sense. Tomayto Tomahto.

 

[Rentahamster]

Defies intuition, doesn't make sense. Tomayto Tomahto.

If you're comparing it to Newtonian mechanics, maybe. But if you become familiar with the concepts, it becomes intuitive. To the layperson, of course it's not. It's very confusing.

 

[O-N-E]

There's no "need" for any of that. You're being very coy and indirect with your answers when you talk about assumptions and other people's beliefs. Formal discourse works better when both parties can ask and answer directly.

Alright then, if you believe that the Creator is omnipotent and omniscient, does that also mean He knows everything you will do?

I won't claim to know the exact mechanism of free will. It can be a paradox (such things do exist here and can exist in other levels of reality and if anyone is capable of it, certainly it's the Creator), but there are other solutions to this answer as well. Just because the Creator knows all possibilities, it doesn't mean he creates something with the intent to chart out its entire course. If he can do anything, then he can manipulate his own omniscience.

Whichever way you slice it, certainly a world without a creator has no true morality.

 

[MetalAlien]

If you're comparing it to Newtonian mechanics, maybe. But if you become familiar with the concepts, it becomes intuitive. To the layperson, of course it's not. It's very confusing.

I doubt there is a working scientist today that would agree with you on that... but as you wish.

Spoiler

 

[Rentahamster]

I won't claim to know the exact mechanism of free will.

Yet you claim to be sure of its existence and how it is derived with certainty. Don't you think those things should be closely related?

It can be a paradox (such things do exist here and can exist in other levels of reality and if anyone is capable of it, certainly it's the Creator)

Can you prove its paradoxical nature? Can you demonstrate these other levels of reality, or is the only one available to us to measure this current one?

Just because the Creator knows all possibilities, it doesn't mean he creates something with the intent to chart out its entire course.

How can you, a mere mortal, assume to precisely know the will of The Creator so easily?

If he can do anything, then he can manipulate his own omniscience.

That still means He knows everything. Many Christians adhere to the phrase, "God has a plan". Do you agree or disagree?

Whichever way you slice it, certainly a world without a creator has no true morality.

You still haven't demonstrated this beyond assertion.

 

[Rentahamster]

I doubt there is a working scientist today that would agree with you on that... but as you wish.

Spoiler

Is Quantum Intuition Possible?

Quantum physics defies our intuitions about the physical world. Does it have to be that way?

www.pbs.org

Is it possible to make quantum mechanics feel "intuitive"?

Answer (1 of 8): Yes. The steps to translate the math and jargon into plain words, concepts, and pictures require you to: * show how the concept of entanglement is made ridiculous through the abandonment of a concept of object permanence * understand the Drude model of electrons in metal and h...

www.quora.com