Laieon
Member
Jessie is by far the best character on the show.
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The family drama in Breaking Bad is excruciating.
- Thread starter Horse Detective
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Jessie is by far the best character on the show.
No, we're not, mate. Certainly, you really don't seem to be understand the arguments of the people you're attempting to criticize and I sure as hell don't understand yours.
Again, in a television show specifically focused on a world populated by murderers, mass-murderers, child murderers, child poisioners, kidnappers, drug dealers, axe-wielding hitmen, corrupt officials, sleazy lawyers and Neo-Nazis...I think it's perfectly understandable that a lot of people feel that Skyler's flaws aren't enough to justify her being among the most universally hated characters in Breaking Bad, if not the most. As a means of validating your own apparent dislike of the character....if you want to engage in resorting to using almost comic levels of hyperbole to warp the arguments of those who didn't feel the hatred was merited, claiming those same opinions are just people saying that Skyler was "supposed to be flawless" and that her actions on the show was utterly without moral stain (they weren't), that's your prerogative, but at the end of the day, that only causes more damage to your own argument then it does to anyone else's within this particular discussion.
Not hugely dude, I have to be honest.
Nailed it.
uncelestial
Member
There are reasons that would raise an eyebrow for me, sure. For example, "I hate the sound of her voice," "I don't like how she looks," "she's a poor housewife," "she is naggy and reminds me of my naggy wife."
But the Skyler defenders who are starting from the position of "I don't get the hate, she's acting perfectly rationally," don't make any distinctions about what reasons people have, at all. They seem fine with the whole kit and kaboodle -- they must, or they wouldn't chastize people for disagreeing so. There are the morally grey things, yes. There are the hypocritical things. There are moments of just being ice cold in the beginning, when all she knew was going on was that the love of her life was dying, and having a hard time dealing with it. The climax of Ozymandias where she pulls out a knife because she thinks Walt killed Hank (wrong), doesn't listen to him say "I tried to save him," massively escalating a situation into a violent confrontation in front of her child, makes my blood boil -- the final destruction of any relationship Walt could have had with his family, made real with a few swoops of an impulsively-grabbed knife.
This back and forth about whether it's okay to dislike this person needs to end. It's okay to dislike this person. Final judgement, full stop. You should have better reasons than "she's naggy and shrill," but that's almost always true in every discussion I've ever seen about Skyler. It's tiresome doing this. Really.
By the way, I really don't care if you find it "immaterial" to discuss this. It's clearly salient, or it wouldn't have already derailed yet another Breaking Bad thread.
Then maybe you should stop. My points are very simple. Really, save yourself the trouble.
Watching some comparisons and it seems like all the Colombian fans hate the remake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGEWp6YKRo8
It shows you how great the directing, editing and acting in Breaking Bad was.
The "say my name" scene is especially devoid of any tension in the remake.
Bounceounce
Member
It's your business if you want to ignore specific scenes like her reaction to Ted's heated flooring, her arguments with Walter, stress that was displayed by the actress,and specific admissions on her part to paint her character in a totally incorrect way.
It's a common response for fans to act as though she was selfishly talking in the drug money wealth and then acting ungrateful for it anyways, total surface reading but it's common.
Rien
Jelly Belly
I dont think the caracter itself was bad. Just Aaron Paul's acting that bothered me. Not saying its bad but he just worked on my nerves in a bad way.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Shut your pie hole.
uncelestial
Member
Things I haven't discussed, am not referring to, aren't being called out by me as "fair game", and don't actually apply to anything I said:
- Hate that the actress received
- Comments about her looks
These are things anyone would admit are sexist and horrible.
Things that I am discussing:
- Anything else involving this character.
If you actually begin to accept that there is a universe of things pertaining to this character besides the shitstains who harassed Anna Gunn and the few troglodytes who comment on her looks -- things that people are reacting to with legitimate feelings and thoughtful observations -- maybe then we can have a conversation.
There's nothing straw man about my post at all, sorry. If you really think there aren't people who just shrug and go "I don't get the hate, she's great" and follow it up with their theories of how such dislike traces back to sexism, all I can say is, you must be new to Breaking Bad discussions.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
I tried rewatching the show and just couldn't get through it. I had to ffw all the family scenes through s1 and s2 until I gave up.
Holy fuck dude.
Of all the genuine faults of judgement skylar has, you want to go with the time where she jumps to a conclusion that basically amounts to a semantic difference at that point?
Ozymandias is when Walt has, at more than any other point in the shows history, proven to be a deadly danger to family who lies constantly to save his image. He didn't want to kill hank and he isn't the one who pulled the trigger, but it was his machinations that engineered the situation that did kill him.
"Escalate the situation" because she realized that Walt is too far gone and she will die if she continues to stay near him. That she's the one who made took the final step of the final destruction that Walt could ahve had with his family after all the abuse and endangerment he has involved them with.
Jesus. I almost think that the reason people assume sexism on parts of people who blame skylar is because whatever dislike one might have of Skylar, it takes some serious mental gymnastics to look at the scene of Ozymandias and conclude that Skylar was the one who was in the wrong. That she has no right to assume that the her murderous, pathological liar of a husband wouldn't lie about having killed Hank. That her taking the necessary steps to self preservation is her 'escalating the situation'.
Lol is Chandler playing Crash Kart Racing?
Co-sign.
uncelestial
Member
I think the reason you assume sexism is because you want to. I see you trying to bait other posters into hanging themselves with their own words, and it's a poor look. It makes me not want to engage with you, and I find your response to my post so vitriolic and strange that actually, I'm not going to. I feel fine about what I said.
Bounceounce
Member
People were bashing Junior and calling him ungrateful for his actions in that episode, don't underestimate the mental gymnastics people made for Walt.
katsubento
Member
I hated Skylar and Marie. Hank was fine.
I really disliked Skylar.
I really disliked Skylar.
This is incredible.
It's a long, drawn-out basic bitch of a metaphor that just screams "look at how arty we are".
Fuck that episode.
Nobody should be watching this show and routing for any character as an essentially good person.
Unlikable characters like Marie and Walt Jr. are probably the only ones who aren't corrupt in some major way, and there's no real way to get behind them anyway. Possibly Hank?
The issue is Skylar's arc is less compelling, and her side of the show drug the whole thing down. Clearly many don't see it our way.
Of course you feel that way, but that means little. Do you have any idea how many genuine sexists, racists, and otherwise prejudiced people truly believe themselves to be entirely free of bigotry?
I've never once in my entire life engaged with anyone on the subject of sexism where they're position was "I believe in sexism.", no matter how rife with sexist underpinnings their argument was.
Instead, people bend their arguments into logical preztals to find ways to express displeasure at a woman doing things to make it seem like their complaints are without the taint of bias.
I can't prove without a doubt that your complaints about skylar underlie sexism, but I can say that what you wrote about how you frame Skylar as the bad guy for making an assumption about walter and "escalating the situation" doesn't hold up to any kind of rational scrutiny. You're affronted by skylar for hastily jumping to a conclusion when Walt summoned nazi's to commit murder.
So me asking the other poster to elaborate isn't some trap that I'm trying to lure you in. It's basic scrutiny designed to clarify what the issue is to the highest degree. If there is actual rationality to their argument, that will come through. If you're worried that you're going to look like a sexist if you say what you truly mean if you elaborate on your problems, that most likely means you are holding some sexist beliefs.
Because otherwise, we get the mindbending thrill ride that was your post on the Ozymandias situation.
You don't have to "like" or "dislike" a character because they're good people or bad. I'll always like watching Tony Soprano more than I like watching Jack Shepherd.
As for Walt without his family... nobody disputes that the family side was necessary for his early days character development. Just not executed the way it was, with those characters and that writing.
Brody from Homeland also required a family to push and pull at his loyalties in Season's 1 and 2, it doesn't make Dana Brody a good character.
Bounceounce
Member
The thing is, a lot of people had this belief that Skyler should capiluate or be more understanding of Walt without any actual insight into why she might be feeling the way she felt, that she had to be "ride or die" for him.
Something that stresses this is the reaction to Kim in Better Call Saul, I can remember back in season one where I was very pro-Kim, and throughout that season there was this constant warrieness amongst the fanbase that she was "going to be the new Skyler", and everytime in every episode that it seemed she was going to disagree with Jimmy on something or stand independently on something, a wave of sighs and worries about potentially having to call he a bitch went out.
This continued all the way up until the last few episodes where they edited the previews to make it seem as though she might potentially break with and "betray" Jimmy (which I didn't believe), and everything amongst the threads was about her potential as a waifu and considering Jimmy's position.
Of course that didn't happen and overtime she became massively loved and now the reaction is sympathy/wanting her to get away from Jimmy because of what people have come to see her as, but prior to then it was the opposite.
What I'm really trying to say is, that Kim represents what many of the male viewers want in their life (and that likeableness for them is why people were already calling Kim a better character than Skyler from jump, which I would disagree with but she's a good character), while Skyler represented the opposite of what they wanted and might have been a stand in for every "bad" woman they dealt with (and for many women was an example of what they didn't want to be in a relationship).
Thaedolus
Member
Man, having seen how real human beings react to abuse and other terrible actions of family members, I found the family drama quite real and believable outside of the stupid kleptomaniac subplot. Hank being a blowhard who's a softy white hat underneath? Sure. Marie being a narcissist? Seen it. Skylar being an overreacting worry wart who, rightly, sees red flags and calls them out? Yep. Jr naively reacting to shit he knows nothing about? Sounds like a teenager.
People hating on how they act and are ruining Walt's chill are kinda missing like 75% of what the show was about. He's not Scarface.
People hating on how they act and are ruining Walt's chill are kinda missing like 75% of what the show was about. He's not Scarface.
Rien
Jelly Belly
True... but that doenst mean people have to like it. Maybe if the family aspect was written and acted in a different way i would like it more. The way it was written now didnt grab me and felt boring.
But i do love series like 6 Feet Under where its almost nothing but family stories.
Or do i missunderstand your post
Yeah, that's a big thing.
In fact, that's the whole problem with "Waifu" commentary. I sometimes engage in it as a joke, but it can get insidious. It feels like an evolution of teenagers rating women on their hotness, except you don't just rate on physical attraction but how attracted you are to their personality. Except this itself is problematic because you're framing a character based on how much they appeal to your romantic ideal, not what role they have in the story or even who they are as a character on their own terms.
Looking through the waifu lens, this different reception of Kim and Skylar makes sense. Kim is about a romance that comes together for Jimmy, while Skylar is about a marriage that falls apart. Walt and Skylar have long since past the honeymoon phase of their lives, where they focus on trying to appeal to one another and trying to live a domestic life with a person is much different from the budding romance Jimmy and Kim have.
uncelestial
Member
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the next 10 minutes. Well, not on one thing. Yes, you were trying to lure Horse Detective into making sexist comments, when he was clearly just (wait for it) horsing around. I noticed it, and I've noticed your name in other contexts like this. You like to assume the worst. It pleases you to attempt to expose people as having less-evolved ideas than you. That's okay, it's a human failing to be sort of self-righteous from time to time. I'm guilty of it myself. But the amount of effort I extend to replying to people who do that? Eh, I'm an infrequentish poster anyway. So if you really want to do this, and I see from the paragraphs of rhetoric from you that you seem to, just keep my distaste for such bad-faith conversations in mind. I'll most likely just bail -- I do it all the time. I just don't have the energy I used to for internet debates and I don't believe I'm right all the time or care about proving it, anyway.
As for your hot take on my Ozymandias reaction, I should start by saying I find your diagnosis of my reaction very uninteresting. Not only for the armchair psychology, which is tiresome. Not only because of the intellectually dishonest "why I would never" remarks, and the "I can't say for sure you're sexist" baiting. But also because, you don't actually know anything about what you're talking about.
Dramatic events that take place in a show... They're all up for interpretation. You posted like you knew for sure that I was "bending over backwards for Walt." I hated Walt by the end of that show. You posted like you knew the writers' intent and the character's feelings, and I doubt that you have any more insight into those things than I. You posted like Ozymandias happened in a bubble -- like the kitchen knife was King Arthur raising Excalibur to smite evil itself, when she had been complicit in Walt's crimes, when she was wrong in what she was assuming had happened, when there were other options (how about just staying put and saying "We're not going anywhere Walt. You brought this on yourself. If the police come here, I'm turning you in."), when she didn't even know what was coming to the house chasing after Walt (like, are you sure you want to stand your ground and meet whatever is bearing down on that house?), when she hadn't been cleared with police herself (Walt did that for her later via the monitored phone call), and yes, when she was finally destroying her family, which was, after all, a rather ultimate tragedy in and of itself. It's a scene of white hot intensity and desperation and rage being acted out, and I feel it's so regrettable that a knife comes out at that moment.
In comes you. Veelk, the person who "can't say for sure" that me feeling this way belies my sexism. I can't tell you how little I regard your take on that. Inserting your own need to pass judgement on me for feeling the way I do about that scene -- it's certainly not serving the cause of feminism. It's not fostering a constructive conversation -- I have to cut through the layers of insinuation and rhetoric and bad faith from you to even get to this point.
These scenes evoke different things for different people. The fact that I don't like a character's action simply because I find the outcome tragic, and I'd like to think I would've have reacted differently, is all the reason I need to dislike that action. I don't owe you an explanation for why disliking something a woman did onscreen does not make me sexist. And I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of writing one now.
Thaedolus
Member
True... but that doenst mean people have to like it. Maybe if the family aspect was written and acted in a different way i would like it more. The way it was written now didnt grab me and felt boring.
But i do love series like 6 Feet Under where its almost nothing but family stories.
Or do i missunderstand your post
But at the end of the day there just isn't much there that doesn't directly relate to the main plot. Skylar and Ted is there because it establishes the jeopardy Walt has put his marriage in, and that she's a good accountant and has a background where she can cook the books/money launder. There's no "Flynn gets a girlfriend" subplot or anything like that which is completely extraneous (except the klepto shit). Hank/Marie stuff is generally directly related to the main plot too and leads to Hank taking Walt down.
I get that these might not be the most exciting scenes but they set the premise and drive most of the drama that comes afterward. Luke Skywalker talking to Obi-wan about his dead father isn't quite as exciting as a dramatic light saber duel, but the "no, I am your father!" line doesn't quite land without it. Walt's family life is essential to his character and the plot of the show, even if those characters aren't particularly likeable and get in the way of his drug kingpining.
It remains remarkable the ways people find to critique Skylar. Maybe there would be less sexism accusations if people like uncelestial didn't invent such ghastly and fucked up ways to demean Skylar while elevating the sociopath Walt's behavior.
Like he was making a serious attempt to save his family life, such comically daft interpretation of the character. Thank God Vince had Walt outright admit he did everything for himself so these people dont have a leg to stand on.
Wow.
Um....okay, rather than respond to any of that....argument, lets call it, I'm just gonna pre-emptively bail out. I mean, you said you were just gonna drop it anyway, so there's little point.
I'll only reiterate one point. If you're that afraid that actually writing out your reasoning will make you sound sexist, it's likely that reasoning is steeped in sexism.
What, you think that stopped them?
"Walt heroically sacrificed his own last vestige of good image by falsely claiming he did it for himself like Skylar wanted to, just for her peace of mind."
I exaggerate the wording, but it's a serious argument I read at one point.
uncelestial
Member
I wrote my complete explanation of what I felt and thought watching the scene. I would not honestly know where to begin defending those feelings against accusations of sexism because, even in your loquaciousness, you actually haven't provided a concrete argument, just a lot of insinuation, as you've uselessly done here. My guess is your argument would essentially boil down to whataboutisms pertaining to Walt and his behavior, even though I already pointed out that I despised him. But, go on and bail. I don't blame you. We can just end it here.
i've not seen the show since it aired, and i don't specifically recall the heated floor you refer to. chances are her reaction in one scene isn't going to save a character for me when they have hours of dire onscreen representation though. i fail to see what relevance the actress' comments could have as to whether or not i enjoyed the character's onscreen presence while i watched the show.
i've stated how i feel about the character. you obviously have a different opinion, and i'm fine with that. if the scenes you mentioned helped you enjoy the character that's cool. maybe i just didn't "get" her, but please don't feel compelled to restate your opinions over and over in a smug manner because it's not doing anything for me. i found the character whiny and felt she was a hypocrite. i dreaded her screen-time, sorry.
uncelestial
Member
Speaking of comically daft interpretations, what makes you think I was saying he was trying to save his family life? Are you under the impression that I like Walt or assume any sort of good intentions on his part? If so, it might be best if you read up a bit.
you:
uncelestial said:
Words mean things. Here you intentionally tried to blame Skylar for destroying the last vestige of their family life, despite Walt never once legitimately trying to strive for said life. Despite the fact that the only reason she even allowed herself to follow Walt into any part of this world was legitimately to try to salvage the family after Walt forced this horror upon them.
A woman protecting herself and her family from a beast, like any sane person would at that point no less.
These are the type of garbage arguments foisted by Skylar haters, and why "sexism" frequently does seem like the best explanation. Whether it is or not.
But that's the truth. Walt was just a good guy who wanted to provide for his family, but when he was done and tried to get out of the business, something always forced him back in. Walt was the real victim of the story.
styl3s
Member
The whole Anthony Jr depression stuff in season 6 made me want to wait till new episodes were doing airing just so i could fucking fast forward through it.
I never really had a problem with the family drama in BB or Sopranos but Jesse's girlfriend in S2 of BB was in-fucking-sufferable. She is the weak link in the show that keeps it from being perfect.
lmfao
No he wasn't, not in the slightest
Oh yes, there will always be sexist people just trying to spread their agenda, even while watching a tv show. Not many people will tell you otherwise, but does this somehow invalidates all the points brought up in this thread? Is the characterization of Skylar somehow perfect because of it?
I think one of the criticisms that i have against this character (and in general of Walt's family) is just how much the pace changes with them. There are sometimes too many awesome things going on with the central plot that moving on to the family felt like changing from driving a Ferrari to a minivan at 40km/h.
Heck, i dare to say this is one of the problems that people have with Skylar but don't really know how to point it out.
Except he could've gotten money and provided for his family even without getting into drug trade. But he chose not to. That's the whole point of the show. It was his choice and the consequences all along.
uncelestial
Member
I'm sorry, is this a serious post? Walt barely escapes with his life, and knows the cops are bearing down on him, about to take him away if he doesn't skip town, and you think my interpretation is: In that scene, Walt takes a moment to sit his family down and talk about harmonious family life and inspire a feeling of unity and adventure in everybody so they can all take a roadtrip?
Of course he wasn't trying to "save his family life," but that doesn't mean that it wasn't violently and ultimately destroyed in that scene. It's an evil person being repelled by a person whose actions I don't like but who is right to stand their ground. It's a horrible shame to watch, it's absolutely gut wrenching stuff. The final moment that family ever spends together is in mortal fear of one another.
None of this is particularly unclear, if you actually try reading things in good faith instead of ...doing whatever it is you think you're doing here. At least you know words *can* mean things, I guess.
While it's his downfall i wouldn't call him the victim since a big thing is how his prode fucked him over many times, the people around him were victims. Remember he wouldn't accept donations and assistance that could helped with the bills due to his family and could have gotten out before it got worse but decided nah i liked the power.
I actually thought Marie's plotlines were fine, although they certainly didn't tie into the broader plot like they could have.
Imagine how a show like Mad Men or the Sopranos would have handled it. Have Marie steal something incriminating of Walt's, lead to a tense episode where he tries to get it back, going from door to door, friction with Hank at their place, yadda yadda.
Um. It's a pretty clear thread in the show's narrative that Walt genuinely begins to enjoy it, live for it even, to the detriment of everyone (except Walt Jr). That's the whole significance of
at the end.
Imagine how a show like Mad Men or the Sopranos would have handled it. Have Marie steal something incriminating of Walt's, lead to a tense episode where he tries to get it back, going from door to door, friction with Hank at their place, yadda yadda.
Um. It's a pretty clear thread in the show's narrative that Walt genuinely begins to enjoy it, live for it even, to the detriment of everyone (except Walt Jr). That's the whole significance of
his death, smiling at the meth lab,
Thaedolus
Member
Shit quality but this scene disproves any notion of this (assuming we aren't all getting trolled by this hilarious post)
https://youtu.be/0iHWiculHtI
Try not writing absurd arguments against Skylar so we dont read them the way you actually wrote it, instead of hoping we interpret it with rainbows and "good faith."
Thanks!
Or this where he straights up admits he was being an asshole and selfish
Breaking Bad - Walt 'I Did It For Me. I Liked It'
Dark_castle
Junior Member
He cares for his family, but he cares for himself above everyone. It shows that he cares for his family, even until the end he wants to protect them, including Hank and Marie, regardless of how dire the situations are. He even drew a line between who is considered family and who isn't. Hank is family, he refuses to send him to Belize. Jessie who isn't family? Well...
Finn of Ooo
Member
I have a real problem with the bolded here, whatever it started out as, Walt wasn't doing this for his family after a certain point. It became a total ego driven goal for him, that's why he couldn't keep his mouth shut about Gail not being Heisenberg.
uncelestial
Member
I'm sorry, but I really never said anything about Walt trying to save his family -- you made that up out of whole cloth. And I posted that I hate Walt, but you wrote that I was trying to "elevate" him. So, I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing.
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