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[olimario]

A lot of GameCube titles are plagued with dithering due to 16 bit color (MP2:E, MGS:TTS). My big question is 'Why?!'.

The GameCube is a powerful current-gen console. so why can't it render a more full color palette? The dithering was so obvious and distracting in Echoes, but other than that the game was beautiful.

Is there a chance this will be a problem we'll see next generation even though the visuals are near lifelike?

 

[radioheadrule83]

I've never noticed.

I did in MGS cutscenes actually. Which were still awesome.

 

[Gattsu25]

It's there in SMS as well (the dithering at least)...it never really bothered me until MGS:TS

It's minor, IMO

 

[JJConrad]

A lot of GameCube titles are plagued with dithering due to 16 bit color (MP2:E, MGS:TTS). My big question is 'Why?!'.

The GameCube is a powerful current-gen console. so why can't it render a more full color palette? The dithering was so obvious and distracting in Echoes, but other than that the game was beautiful.

Is there a chance this will be a problem we'll see next generation even though the visuals are near lifelike?

Echoes is 16-bit? Never noticed.

 

[human5892]

It really sucked in the first Metroid Prime, as well. A lot of the lighting was ruined by the damn dithering.

Of course, it can't hold a candle to the AWFUL dithering present in the Wind Waker, which was enough to spoil what could have been beautiful sunrise and sunset sequences on the ocean. :/

 

[mumu]

I never noticed in SMS. Only noticed the crappy compression in the FMVs. Never noticed in the original MP either. And i'm usually an expert in noticing these things.

 

[scarybore]

I've never noticed.

I did in MGS cutscenes actually. Which were still awesome.

Thats your reason I guess, most people don't notice it just like framerates. If most people cant tell the difference and you can get a boost in performance, then the choice is pretty obvious sadly.

 

[ge-man]

A lot of GameCube titles are plagued with dithering due to 16 bit color (MP2:E, MGS:TTS). My big question is 'Why?!'.

The GameCube is a powerful current-gen console. so why can't it render a more full color palette? The dithering was so obvious and distracting in Echoes, but other than that the game was beautiful.

Is there a chance this will be a problem we'll see next generation even though the visuals are near lifelike?

Easy, you save memory. It's a cost/benefit scenario like many other things in game development. It seems like in the case of the GC developers would rather have the extra memory to work with and live with with the dithering.

I don't think this will be a problem next generation, so you can rest easy.

 

[jett]

Eh, I notice more dithering problems in PS2 games.

 

[dark10x]

A lot of GameCube titles are plagued with dithering due to 16 bit color (MP2:E, MGS:TTS). My big question is 'Why?!'.

The GameCube is a powerful current-gen console. so why can't it render a more full color palette? The dithering was so obvious and distracting in Echoes, but other than that the game was beautiful.

Is there a chance this will be a problem we'll see next generation even though the visuals are near lifelike?

MP2:E runs in 24-bit, Oli.

MGS, RE4, Zelda-WW, PN03, and a number of other "big" titles all run in 16-bit color, however. Tons and tons of XBOX/PS2 to GC ports run in 16-bit as well (Warrior Within being the most recent game to suffer).

On analog TVs, the problem isn't particularly noticible in most games. However, when running in progressive scan, it becomes quite a problem.

 

[Sander]

Fillrate is the culprit, an area in which the GC is slightly lacking.

 

[Culex]

MP2:E runs in 24-bit, Oli.

MGS, RE4, Zelda-WW, PN03, and a number of other "big" titles all run in 16-bit color, however. Tons and tons of XBOX/PS2 to GC ports run in 16-bit as well (Warrior Within being the most recent game to suffer).

On analog TVs, the problem isn't particularly noticible in most games. However, when running in progressive scan, it becomes quite a problem.

Wind Waker is 16-bit? I had no idea.

 

[human5892]

Wind Waker is 16-bit? I had no idea.

If you notice the bad color banding during sunrise/sunset, or when you're sailing into the cave part of the first dungeon (sorry, it's been a while since I've played) -- that's why.

 

[dark10x]

Wind Waker is 16-bit? I had no idea.

Yeah it is.

It's most obvious when sailing during the day/night shifting. Ever notice those vertical bands in the ocean? WW is pretty grainy in 480p mode, specifically in darker areas.

 

[olimario]

MP2:E runs in 24-bit, Oli.

MGS, RE4, Zelda-WW, PN03, and a number of other "big" titles all run in 16-bit color, however. Tons and tons of XBOX/PS2 to GC ports run in 16-bit as well (Warrior Within being the most recent game to suffer).

On analog TVs, the problem isn't particularly noticible in most games. However, when running in progressive scan, it becomes quite a problem.

24 bit, sorry. Still, the dithering is horrible.

 

[Culex]

Yeah it is.

It's most obvious when sailing during the day/night shifting. Ever notice those vertical bands in the ocean? WW is pretty grainy in 480p mode, specifically in darker areas.

Hey, you're right. I always wondered what those vertical bands were.

 

[dark10x]

24 bit, sorry. Still, the dithering is horrible.

There is color banding in some areas (the fog effects are quite guilty of this), but the game is nearly devoid of dithering.

 

[olimario]

There is color banding in some areas (the fog effects are quite guilty of this), but the game is nearly devoid of dithering.

Okay... What is the difference between color banding and dithering. They look alike to me.
The problem with the sky in Wind Waker and the problem underwater in Echoes look alike and look horrible.

 

[aoi tsuki]

The framerate in Twin Snakes was far, far worse than the 16-bit color issues. Wind Waker's fog was horrible though. i play my games through an X-Blaster so it's very easy to spot graphical gaffes and limitations

 

[human5892]

The framerate in Twin Snakes was far, far worse than the 16-bit color issues.

Definitely. I felt like I was playing a beta before it was optimized. It stuttered when all it had to draw was snowy ground and a few ravens flying around!

 

[tahrikmili]

Dithering? Are you referring to the rather abundant banding issues in GC? Especially in the skyboxes and stuff?

 

[olimario]

Dithering? Are you referring to the rather abundant banding issues in GC? Especially in the skyboxes and stuff?

Perhaps. I think I have the wrong definition of dithering and I'm wondering what that is compared to color banding.

 

[Fafalada]

A lot of GameCube titles are plagued with dithering due to 16 bit color. My big question is 'Why?!'.

If I had to guess, two things are likely...
One is that GC has no 32bit mode, so when you want a destination alpha, or a stencil buffer, you end up with 24bit mode arranged as 6:6:6:6, which has almost as much problems with banding as regular 16bit.
Other, to be be able to fit multiple render buffers into GCN's eDram at once, 16bit is usually needed.

Lastly, any game that uses FSAA basically can't run higher then 16bit at all, but those are incredibly rare since using FSAA has all kinds of other issues as well.

Perhaps. I think I have the wrong definition of dithering and I'm wondering what that is compared to color banding.

Dithering is a process aimed at reducing color banding.
http://www.ricklineback.com/term5.htm

 

[Culex]

So the GC's coloring mode is similar to that of 3DFX's Voodoo line?

 

[Warm Machine]

I'm running in progressive scan on the cube and I don't notice any of what your are talking about. I DO see color banding on skyboxes though and that is due to the compression of the texture itself and not the GC's display.

I also notice minimal color banding when lots of alpha is being thrown around on screen and that is because there are just too few colors in the spectrum. There are only so many miniscule levels of desaturated blue or warm grey the machine can do.

Sometimes you'll see banding artifacts if there is a framebuffer effect going on over the screen and that is because the texture size of the framebuffer effect is about 1/2 the screen size and is a 16bit or 256 color texture.

Regardless, this is pretty picky.

 

[Gorgie]

If there's any game where I noticed dithering, it's Halo 2. Too often do the walls in corridors looks splotchy. I'm pretty sure it's running in 16 bit.

 

[ge-man]

Regardless, this is pretty picky.

That's how I feel about it personally. I'm far more offended by bugs and jumpy framerates. Fortunately, many of the games that have been listed with dithering problems don't have these issues (well, except for MGS:TTS.)

 

[scarybore]

If there's any game where I noticed dithering, it's Halo 2. Too often do the walls in corridors looks splotchy. I'm pretty sure it's running in 16 bit.

Theres certainly tons of color banding in Halo 2, it even does it in the title screen :lol

I certainly notice the banding issues more than dithering, ive always noticed it on MGS titles for one among others. Also seems to do it alot with strong light sources nearby which is a shame.

 

[dark10x]

If there's any game where I noticed dithering, it's Halo 2. Too often do the walls in corridors looks splotchy. I'm pretty sure it's running in 16 bit.

No, Halo 2 most certainly does not run in 16-bit.

However, the issue you are seeing is likely related to the texture compression used in order to conserve memory.

 

[Warm Machine]

The sky issue in Zelda is due to the depth of field blur they are using. The framebuffer texture mask is probably 8bit/compressed 16 bit and is what you are seeing is the blending between the a properly gradated sky and a messy low res texture.

 

[Warm Machine]

Oh, some tv's like the shitty 14" Sony that sits on my desk has a TERRIBLE time generating reds and blacks. On my HD the images look completely smooth, on the Sony they band ans artifact like hell.

Some of what you guys are seeing may be just your display.

 

[dark10x]

The sky issue in Zelda is due to the depth of field blur they are using. The framebuffer texture mask is probably 8bit/compressed 16 bit and is what you are seeing is the blending between the a properly gradated sky and a messy low res texture.

No, it's not a result of the DOF used as dithering occurs even in areas untouched by the effect.

 

[Squeak]

Oh, some tv's like the shitty 14" Sony that sits on my desk has a TERRIBLE time generating reds and blacks. On my HD the images look completely smooth, on the Sony they band ans artifact like hell.

Some of what you guys are seeing may be just your display.

Actually that's a sign that the Sony has better colour definition than your HD screen. Wouldn't be surprising if the Sony TV is a CRT and the other one a plasma or LCD.

Has temporal dithering been used in any console games? I'm talking about notching the saturation parameter up and down every frame (or field). I bet that would work really well with 60fps games on a display with low response time.

 

[Warm Machine]

No, it's not a result of the DOF used as dithering occurs even in areas untouched by the effect.

Can you give me an example? I'll put the game on at noon and take a look.