Support NeoGAF

[eznark]

Am I missing something because from the quick look, it sure as hell looked unfair! Like how the hell are you supposed to get past that Cthulhu like squid without grinding or knowing a trick around him?
I mean the very first enemy you encounter in only the 2nd level of the game & he died 4 times against it?
4 hits & you're dead, add the fact the enemy has projectile weapons where he can attack you from across the room, but you can't target him from that far. Plus a close up bomb like attack that radius is so big that if you even parry/dodge back, it will still hit you.

Lastly, if you die twice before getting to your death spot, all your experience/souls are lost for good!? That is just plan unfair.

Move along, son, this game is not for you.

 

[Zeliard]

Am I missing something because from the quick look, it sure as hell looked unfair! Like how the hell are you supposed to get past that Cthulhu like squid without grinding or knowing a trick around him?
I mean the very first enemy you encounter in only the 2nd level of the game & he died 4 times against it?
4 hits & you're dead, add the fact the enemy has projectile weapons where he can attack you from across the room, but you can't target him from that far. Plus a close up bomb like attack that radius is so big that if you even parry/dodge back, it will still hit you.

Lastly, if you die twice before getting to your death spot, all your experience/souls are lost for good!? That is just plan unfair.

This is why we get dumbed down games.

 

[Cat in the Hat]

I think he provide the view of an average gamer that enjoys repetitive, long-arsed games that get hyped to hell here because they're difficult (see Godhand). I'm pretty sure the majority of people seeing Vin play the game were thinking the same thing, Jeff doesn't deserve to get hated on just because he's not a masochist like you.

I say this as someone who's considering buying a PS3 just because this game looks so awesome. This quicklook didn't deter me at all, in fact it made me want it more and I'm pretty sure that if you're the kind of person who'd like this game you'd feel the same. So I don't get why the hell people need to hate when he's just giving an opinion that's not all that difficult to believe?

But is a opinion valid if the only thing it consist of is, ITS SO HARDDD!. I'm all for criticism, and I understand that he might be coming from the place of the average consumer. But he needs to make a better case for himself other than the one he provided. After all it is his job. . .

 

[WEGGLES]

I think the most annoying part of the Demon's Souls Quick look is that vinny NEVER HEALED ASSADJHADKKAGHKSDGHAEHTTINKBIKTGNBVB. Why wouldn't you heal?! And he said he didn't want to run out of magic grass. But he ignored a few corpses that would've had grass. :S

I feel their criticisms are fair, though they seem to make them out to be bigger deals than they are. I mean. This game you do have to read the manual. Something people aren't used to doing...

It is a hard game. It is punishing. But it's not bad.

 

[sonicmj1]

Am I missing something because from the quick look, it sure as hell looked unfair! Like how the hell are you supposed to get past that Cthulhu like squid without grinding or knowing a trick around him?
I mean the very first enemy you encounter in only the 2nd level of the game & he died 4 times against it?
4 hits & you're dead, add the fact the enemy has projectile weapons where he can attack you from across the room, but you can't target him from that far. Plus a close up bomb like attack that radius is so big that if you even parry/dodge back, it will still hit you.

Lastly, if you die twice before getting to your death spot, all your experience/souls are lost for good!? That is just plan unfair.

That isn't the second level of the game. It's one of five places Vinny could have gone. So you have a bunch of different options.

1) Go beat another easier level. There are a few options out there. Your rewards from there will hopefully make you strong enough to deal with the guards. This is probably what you should do. Going straight into the Tower of Latria from the first stage isn't a great idea.

1a) Grind an area with good returns on souls. Not necessary, but if you want to...

2) Sneak up on the guard and hack him to pieces before he can attack you. This probably means not wearing incredibly heavy armor.

You always have options. If you keep repeating a losing strategy, and keep losing as a result, you only have yourself to blame.

 

[Shurs]

the dance thing is a taunt, by the way :lol

We know.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

ah, I thought you might have thought that it was just some wacky Japanese thing

 

[CaLe]

I can understand that this quick look would put a lot of people off the game, but it totally just made me order the game from Hong Kong just now (not available in the UK). It seems like a game you get a lot out of if you put the effort in.

 

[bigmit3737]

If I had a ps3 I would so buy that game.

 

[Hawk SE]

I really wish Brad was workin' the Demon's Souls QL

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I gotta say, Vinny really sucked for someone who has played the game for 6 hours already. You learn the basics of Demon's Souls pretty quickly in 1-1 and if he was able to beat Phalanx in 1-1 I kind of feel he should have been doing better. The game is challenging, but it isn't mind numbingly difficult if you are careful. I usually suck at games and almost never play them on harder difficulties. Halo on heroic or legendary difficulty? I wouldn't get past the first stage. Old school Mega Man games? I quit in frustration in minutes. However, I was able to play through Demon's Souls because you can get through the game by using your head and playing it safe. It's too bad that it seems there aren't very many people out there who can enjoy a game without a guided, hand-held experience and a heavy narrative. I like those types of games too, but I think there is plenty of room for both.

 

[hamchan]

I really wish Brad was workin' the Demon's Souls QL

Why? Vinny is awesome.

Did you want to hear Brad go "hopefully I won't die on this quick look" and then die a few minutes later? I always laugh when that happens :lol

 

[Alex]

Demon's Souls is hard, but it's never really frustrating, at least not to me. It's usually quite fair and extremely rewarding. It's not even remotely masochistic. I don't think some people even know what that word means. If you want masochism there are way, way worse games out there. The punishment in this game is exceedingly small even for big mistakes.

There's quite a boon to be had with encouraging people to experiment and learn and exploit weaknesses and in general not hold their fucking hand and treat them like an adult. Some of the best times in gaming are from overcoming great odds.

There's a new Bioware game coming out next month for the console shooter crowd who likes to occasionally dip into a "deep" RPG.

 

[Felix Lighter]

I gotta say, Vinny really sucked for someone who has played the game for 6 hours already. You learn the basics of Demon's Souls pretty quickly in 1-1 and if he was able to beat Phalanx in 1-1 I kind of feel he should have been doing better. The game is challenging, but it isn't mind numbingly difficult if you are careful. I usually suck at games and almost never play them on harder difficulties. Halo on heroic or legendary difficulty? I wouldn't get past the first stage. Old school Mega Man games? I quit in frustration in minutes. However, I was able to play through Demon's Souls because you can get through the game by using your head and playing it safe. It's too bad that it seems there aren't very many people out there who can enjoy a game without a guided, hand-held experience and a heavy narrative. I like those types of games too, but I think there is plenty of room for both.

It seems the game takes a lot of concentration, patience and a careful pace and the Quick Look format goes against all of that. He was describing the action, the story and the mechanics, all while trying to play. I'm not familiar enough with the game to know if that's why he struggled or if it was lack of skill.

 

[wolfmat]

I always knew it's not a game I want, although I secretly admire what it does. I wish I had the patience for this (and a PS3, duh).

 

[elrechazado]

I gotta say, Vinny really sucked for someone who has played the game for 6 hours already. You learn the basics of Demon's Souls pretty quickly in 1-1 and if he was able to beat Phalanx in 1-1 I kind of feel he should have been doing better. The game is challenging, but it isn't mind numbingly difficult if you are careful. I usually suck at games and almost never play them on harder difficulties. Halo on heroic or legendary difficulty? I wouldn't get past the first stage. Old school Mega Man games? I quit in frustration in minutes. However, I was able to play through Demon's Souls because you can get through the game by using your head and playing it safe. It's too bad that it seems there aren't very many people out there who can enjoy a game without a guided, hand-held experience and a heavy narrative. I like those types of games too, but I think there is plenty of room for both.

He was playing for a video while trying to answer questions from 2 guys and show things for the video, tell what he was doing, etc. He said he died a few times, but he clearly wasn't playing like he would be if he could sit there and concentrate, and you have no idea how much failure or success he had when he was actually playing his two dudes.

Geez people, settle the fuck down.

 

[daycru]

I always knew it's not a game I want, although I secretly admire what it does. I wish I had the patience for this (and a PS3, duh).

Same here. I totally respect it for going so far against what else is being made today but I have absolutely no desire to ever play it. The first time I lost all of my souls due to the camera getting stuck in a wall, I'd be listing in in the buy/sell/trade thread.

 

[Acid08]

This is why we get dumbed down games.

Yes I love playing unfair games that are difficult for no good reason. Obviously all the reasonable and fun games are just "dumbed down" for us plebs. God I was interested in this game but all the fucking jackassery by its fans is really turning me off to it. Step off your high horse, idiots.

 

[Jayge]

I gotta say, Vinny really sucked for someone who has played the game for 6 hours already. You learn the basics of Demon's Souls pretty quickly in 1-1 and if he was able to beat Phalanx in 1-1 I kind of feel he should have been doing better. The game is challenging, but it isn't mind numbingly difficult if you are careful. I usually suck at games and almost never play them on harder difficulties. Halo on heroic or legendary difficulty? I wouldn't get past the first stage. Old school Mega Man games? I quit in frustration in minutes. However, I was able to play through Demon's Souls because you can get through the game by using your head and playing it safe. It's too bad that it seems there aren't very many people out there who can enjoy a game without a guided, hand-held experience and a heavy narrative. I like those types of games too, but I think there is plenty of room for both.

Well, look at Dave in the Dragon Age QL. Dave is the resident pcRPG expert at the WhiskeyMedia offices and he was faltering in the early levels of the game on normal difficulty. They're obviously not there to demonstrate what high-level play looks like, just to give a... quick look (oh god) at the game. Which they do successfully most of the time.

 

[Shiggie]

this reminds me of The Dark Spire... really cool. I never finished it tho.

 

[WEGGLES]

Yes I love playing unfair games that are difficult for no good reason. Obviously all the reasonable and fun games are just "dumbed down" for us plebs. God I was interested in this game but all the fucking jackassery by its fans is really turning me off to it. Step off your high horse, idiots.

It's not really unfair.
It punishes you for your mistakes. It doesn't just kill you for no reason.
If you fall off a cliff and die... is that unfair?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I don't think it's a question of whether it's fair so much as it is a question of whether forcing a player to restart a level because he moved his stick a little bit too far to the right is good design.

 

[Curufinwe]

Yes I love playing unfair games that are difficult for no good reason.

You seem to be in the wrong thread. Demon's Souls is neither of those things.

 

[Shurs]

Yes I love playing unfair games that are difficult for no good reason. Obviously all the reasonable and fun games are just "dumbed down" for us plebs. God I was interested in this game but all the fucking jackassery by its fans is really turning me off to it. Step off your high horse, idiots.

You could stand to step off your horse as well. If a game's fans effect your interest in it, you need to re-evaluate why you play games in the first place.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yes I love playing unfair games that are difficult for no good reason. Obviously all the reasonable and fun games are just "dumbed down" for us plebs. God I was interested in this game but all the fucking jackassery by its fans is really turning me off to it. Step off your high horse, idiots.

Que? That thread has some hardcore folks but here on GAF, things are not as you say with the DS crowd. The game warrants the vigorous following it has attained.

I don't think it's a question of whether it's fair so much as it is a question of whether forcing a player to restart a level because he moved his stick a little bit too far to the right is good design.

There are times where you fall BUT control is always in your hands. You simply have to think like every step counts. This is a high no games produce in this way in this day and age. It's awesome and proves who the real men/women are. The real gamers. It tests you but it's so worth it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well, look at Dave in the Dragon Age QL. Dave is the resident pcRPG expert at the WhiskeyMedia offices and he was faltering in the early levels of the game on normal difficulty. They're obviously not there to demonstrate what high-level play looks like, just to give a... quick look (oh god) at the game. Which they do successfully most of the time.

I realize that and I actually think he was doing okay when he was playing his Mage, but the repeated suicide runs on the squid monster with his Knight character just had me shaking my head. There is no reason to approach the fight in the ways that he was.

The quick look was fine in my opinion. Vinny seemed to be enjoying it slightly and Dave was interested in it. This is pretty much what I expected just as it is pretty clear that Jeff and Ryan will most likely not even give the game a fair shot.

 

[Shurs]

I don't think it's a question of whether it's fair so much as it is a question of whether forcing a player to restart a level because he moved his stick a little bit too far to the right is good design.

There are a lot of people who love the game, and this specific design choice is one of the reasons.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

But is a opinion valid if the only thing it consist of is, ITS SO HARDDD!. I'm all for criticism, and I understand that he might be coming from the place of the average consumer. But he needs to make a better case for himself other than the one he provided. After all it is his job. . .

He didn't just say it was "sooo hard". He said the combat looked simple, it's difficulty came from a dodgy camera and targeting system that wasn't handy when needing to block multiple opponents, also how the fact that you could lose all the progress you've made over a few hours was completely unreasonable. How was his opinion simply "waaaahh, it so hard!"

 

[Deleted member 30609]

yeah, I haven't played the game so I can't fairly comment on whether or not it is or isn't. I'm just saying that seems to be the question people like Gerstmann are asking.

 

[elrechazado]

I realize that and I actually think he was doing okay when he was playing his Mage, but the repeated suicide runs on the squid monster with his Knight character just had me shaking my head. There is no reason to approach the fight in the ways that he was.

The quick look was fine in my opinion. Vinny seemed to be enjoying it slightly and Dave was interested in it. This is pretty much what I expected just as it is pretty clear that Jeff and Ryan will most likely not even give the game a fair shot.

Dude, he was just standing there, he had a couple of minutes left on the video, he didn't even try to fight the thing, he was trying to show the guys the crossbow. One of the deaths he just stood on the wall and did nothing. But you apparently think he was trying his hardest to beat the game :lol I really don't think you paid attention, either that or you just want to jump all over their shit because one of them had a differing opinion on the game.

 

[EviLore]

the fact that you could lose all the progress you've made over a few hours

Absurd statement.

 

[Shurs]

yeah, I haven't played the game so I can't fairly comment on whether or not it is or isn't. I'm just saying that seems to be the question people like Gerstmann are asking.

I guess it all comes down to authorial intent. This game is intended to be a punishing affair. It's supposed to make you feel scared and play cautious. Making someone lose their souls and restart a level when they die is an effective way to achieve this.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Absurd statement.

Really? When Vinnie said it took him 5 hours to beat the first dungeon?

 

[elrechazado]

Really? When Vinnie said it took him 5 hours to beat the first dungeon?

He had 4.something hours on his one guy. Beating one large area in 4 hours doesn't seem too crazy for an in depth game like this. Of all the criticisms of the game, an in depth experience sure shouldn't be one...

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Really? When Vinnie said it took him 5 hours to beat the first dungeon?

It took me a couple of hours to beat the first dungeon as well and it really is more of a tutorial than anything about how to play the game and by the time you finish it you will have the basics down pretty well. You are also not losing hours of progress by dying in the first level, either. The amount of souls you can get from basic enemies in the first dungeon is really quite negligible, but you do pick up lots of items that do not go away when you die. You get a decent amount of souls after you beat the first boss and after that you can return to the hub area and spend your souls to level up your character and buy new gear. This is something you should do often in the early game and unless you are trying risky stuff on purpose it will be rare that you ever lose a large amount of souls permanently.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

He had 4.something hours on his one guy. Beating one large area in 4 hours doesn't seem too crazy for an in depth game like this. Of all the criticisms of the game, an in depth experience sure shouldn't be one...

Exactly.

 

[hamchan]

Dude, he was just standing there, he had a couple of minutes left on the video, he didn't even try to fight the thing, he was trying to show the guys the crossbow. One of the deaths he just stood on the wall and did nothing. But you apparently think he was trying his hardest to beat the game :lol I really don't think you paid attention, either that or you just want to jump all over their shit because one of them had a differing opinion on the game.

Exactly.
The first time he died was a legitimate death. The rest was just screwing around trying to show off the game's features. He even said that the level was possibly too hard for him at his current level.

These people are attacking Vinny for nothing :lol I had the impression Vinny quite liked the game.

 

[wolfmat]

I guess it all comes down to authorial intent. This game is intended to be a punishing affair. It's supposed to make you feel scared and play cautious. Making someone lose their souls and restart a level when they die is an effective way to achieve this.

That's really why I admire what it does! You know that if you fuck up, the results match that, which makes you REALLY fight for your virtual life. It's incorporating and communicating risk quite effectively that way.
The result is a lot of attention, high investment player-side, careful fighting and of course a thumping heart when it gets rough. You can't deny that that's worth something.

 

[Kloid]

I don't think it's a question of whether it's fair so much as it is a question of whether forcing a player to restart a level because he moved his stick a little bit too far to the right is good design.

To get closer to the core of the issue, it's a question of whether a game made from the bottom up to kill you, to beat you, to make you 'lose', is a good idea.

That's pretty much what you're up against in DS, a game where every enemy is there as a legitimate threat and the level design has revolved entirely around tempting you into traps, navigating fatal precipices and, you know, just general dangerous stuff around every corner. The game really is trying to beat you. Which, conversely, means that if you're making progress through it, you can genuinely claim to be beating it.

Modern games just aren't made this way anymore for the most part. Devs don't actually want their game's players to die - they just want them to experience the threat of dying and then overcome it and recover and, if a player should die, they don't want the player to then suffer. Less frustration that way, less chance of negative word-of-mouth. You can equally ask whether or not this is good design.

Of course, there's no single right or wrong answer. It's subjective based on the tastes of the consumer and the intentions of the creator, as design tends to be.

 

[elrechazado]

To get closer to the core of the issue, it's a question of whether a game made from the bottom up to kill you, to beat you, to make you 'lose', is a good idea.

That's pretty much what you're up against in DS, a game where every enemy is a legitimate threat and the level design has revolved entirely around tempting you into traps, navigating fatal precipices and, you know, just general dangerous stuff around every corner. The game really is trying to beat you. Which, conversely, means that if you're making progress through it, you can genuinely claim to be beating it.

Modern games just aren't made this way anymore for the most part. Devs don't actually want their game's players to die - they just want them to experience the threat of dying and then overcome it and recover and, if a player should die, they don't want the player to then suffer. Less frustration that way, less chance of negative word-of-mouth. You can equally ask whether or not this is good design.

Of course, there's no single right or wrong answer. It's subjective based on the tastes of the consumer, as design tends to be.

It's probably been said, but it's pretty amazing that they tried to put in a system to mitigate this without it getting too casual: the messages from other players in this cool persistent online experience, and the way you can see other peoples deaths reenacted, get help from other players.

This game might suck without that really cool feature, but if the community works they way it's designed, then it mitigates the unforgiving and hard nature of the game in a cool way.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I guess it all comes down to authorial intent. This game is intended to be a punishing affair. It's supposed to make you feel scared and play cautious. Making someone lose their souls and restart a level when they die is an effective way to achieve this.

That's really why I admire what it does! You know that if you fuck up, the results match that, which makes you REALLY fight for your virtual life. It's incorporating and communicating risk quite effectively that way.
The result is a lot of attention, high investment player-side, careful fighting and of course a thumping heart when it gets rough. You can't deny that that's worth something.

To get closer to the core of the issue, it's a question of whether a game made from the bottom up to kill you, to beat you, to make you 'lose', is a good idea.

That's pretty much what you're up against in DS, a game where every enemy is there as a legitimate threat and the level design has revolved entirely around tempting you into traps, navigating fatal precipices and, you know, just general dangerous stuff around every corner. The game really is trying to beat you. Which, conversely, means that if you're making progress through it, you can genuinely claim to be beating it.

Modern games just aren't made this way anymore for the most part. Devs don't actually want their game's players to die - they just want them to experience the threat of dying and then overcome it and recover and, if a player should die, they don't want the player to then suffer. Less frustration that way, less chance of negative word-of-mouth. You can equally ask whether or not this is good design.

Of course, there's no single right or wrong answer. It's subjective based on the tastes of the consumer and the intentions of the creator, as design tends to be.

All really good points; I really wish I had the time to sit down and play it for myself, although I probably won't until Christmas time.

It's probably been said, but it's pretty amazing that they tried to put in a system to mitigate this without it getting too casual: the messages from other players in this cool persistent online experience, and the way you can see other peoples deaths reenacted, get help from other players.

This game might suck without that really cool feature, but if the community works they way it's designed, then it mitigates the unforgiving and hard nature of the game in a cool way.

I find this super-fascinating. Having that feeling of community, even when you're playing by yourself, is such an awesome thing.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

On a personal level, I really like Vinny. He seems like a great guy. But watching him play games can definitely be frustrating. More than a few times during the Persona 4 Endurance Run, he would do things that made me say to myself, "What the fuck are you focusing on that for? You need to go do that other thing!"

Maybe it's because he's talking to someone else while he's playing and he gets distracted, but watching him play Demon's Souls seemed like the same thing. It almost looked like he was rushing though the levels, when he should have been playing more deliberately. It looked real sloppy.

[edited for silly grammatical errors.]

 

[elrechazado]

It almost looked like he was rushing though the levels, when he should have been playing more deliberately. It looked real sloppy.

facepalm.gif

He's playing demonstratively to show you the viewer what the game is all about, while narrating and answering questions. Good god.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

He had 4.something hours on his one guy. Beating one large area in 4 hours doesn't seem too crazy for an in depth game like this. Of all the criticisms of the game, an in depth experience sure shouldn't be one...

The area didn't seem that huge given he said that he just had to go down the stairs and pull a leaver to fight a boss in the space of 15 minutes. Maybe I miss-head him?

 

[hamchan]

Maybe it's because he's talking to someone else while he's playing and he gets distracted, but watching him play Demon's Souls seemed like the same thing. It almost looked like he was rushing though the levels, when he should have been playing more deliberately. It looked real sloppy.

Did it? I thought he being careful enough considering he played through the level before.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Am I missing something because from the quick look, it sure as hell looked unfair! Like how the hell are you supposed to get past that Cthulhu like squid without grinding or knowing a trick around him?
I mean the very first enemy you encounter in only the 2nd level of the game & he died 4 times against it?
4 hits & you're dead, add the fact the enemy has projectile weapons where he can attack you from across the room, but you can't target him from that far. Plus a close up bomb like attack that radius is so big that if you even parry/dodge back, it will still hit you.
.

Couple of things. A) That was world 3. Not level 2, not level 3, but world 3. B) His projectile weapon can be easily blocked when your shield is up. Vinny for some reason had a sword in one hand and a crossbow in another. Not the best tactic.

The game is really not that hard so long as you have your shield up and time your attacks carefully.

 

[bigmit3737]

Is there a similar game on the PC? Sadly I don't have a PS3 at the moment...

But would that fit under the category rougelike?

 

[Chromax]

Am I missing something because from the quick look, it sure as hell looked unfair! Like how the hell are you supposed to get past that Cthulhu like squid without grinding or knowing a trick around him?
I mean the very first enemy you encounter in only the 2nd level of the game & he died 4 times against it?
4 hits & you're dead, add the fact the enemy has projectile weapons where he can attack you from across the room, but you can't target him from that far. Plus a close up bomb like attack that radius is so big that if you even parry/dodge back, it will still hit you.

Lastly, if you die twice before getting to your death spot, all your experience/souls are lost for good!? That is just plan unfair.

Wait for him to turn around + run up + backstab = dead squid.

Yeah, it's that simple.

 

[wolfmat]

On a personal level, I really like Vinnie. He seems like a great guy. But watching him play games can definitely be frustrating. More than a few times during the Persona 4 Endurance Run, he would do things that made me say to myself, "What the fuck are you focusing on that for? You need to go do that other thing!"

Dude, the worst was when he fused. The way he handled the menus, especially when he wanted some spell to be inherited, was insanely aggravating to me. He ALWAYS went one step too far in the menu and had to go a step back. Same for using the dialogues. Sometimes I was on the brink of punching the monitor.

Spoiler

That was an exaggeration, I actually didn't really mind, it was just a pretty obvious 'tick' of Vinny.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

facepalm.gif

He's playing demonstratively to show you the viewer what the game is all about, while narrating and answering questions. Good god.

I might be tempted to agree with you if I were unfamiliar with the way Vinny seems to play videogames. Like I said, he seems easily distracted.

And I'm not giving him shit just to give him shit or I'm a Demon's Souls apologist. I don't even have the game. Like I said before, I like Vinny.