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[Volotaire]

Ooh, I never heard about that mechanic. Link? I'd love to see Link age throughout the game from a child to a teen. I always preferred Child Link/Toon Link, anyway.

I'll try to find it, i'm sure I was looking at this the other day.

Kinda hard to watch them talk about TP's items only really serving as "Keys" whilst ignoring all the instances in which you can use them to explore the secrets in the overworld to unlock Pieces of Heart, Poe Souls, and Golden Bugs; I know that that's not exactly a lot of interesting things to find, but I fail to see how it's so different from bombing a random rock in the OG Zelda to find...a piece of heart. Overall though it was pretty good discussion, and I'm glad they share the same fears that certain things might suffer because of the non-linearity, I hope Aonuma and the Zelda Team are aware of the potential problems as well.

I think they meant actually using these items continuously throughout other dungeons, other explorable areas which were not just 'bombable' one room caves but mini dungeons lie in the Wind Waker, which could have its own set of puzzles, enemies and lucrative incentive rewards past collectable items. TW suffered from the lack of interesting explorable areas, the lack of using some of the items continuously outside dungeons in these areas as well as poor incentives and poor rewards.

Not to say OG Zelda is different, but given the obvious limitations of the game back then, what they could potentially be doing now is greater. Think the optional items in ALTTP, optional masks in MM, upgradable items in SS(to a degree).

 

[Peléo]

Perhaps one way of solving the apparent ALBW issue (I haven't played it yet) is too somehow program in harder enemies after a set number of dungeons have been defeated, no matter what dungeon you have defeated or in what order. Although the puzzles couldn't be changed due to the difficulty of applying a procedurally generated algorithm to this type of game, II think the changing the enemy difficulty could definitely be a half solution.

If I remember correctly, you could choose between difficulty levels before you got in. But yeah, randomized puzzles are kind of hard to make. Binding of Isaac inittialy was planned to include puzzles, but the idea was soon scratched.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I'll try to find it, i'm sure I was looking at this the other day.



I think they meant actually using these items continuously throughout other dungeons, other explorable areas which were not just 'bombable' one room caves but mini dungeons lie in the Wind Waker, which could have its own set of puzzles, enemies and lucrative incentive rewards past collectable items. TW suffered from the lack of interesting explorable areas, the lack of using some of the items continuously outside dungeons in these areas as well as poor incentives and poor rewards.

Not to say OG Zelda is different, but given the obvious limitations of the game back then, what they could potentially be doing now is greater. Think the optional items in ALTTP, optional masks in MM, upgradable items in SS(to a degree).

It's just that TP had more than just one room areas, it had the lantern caverns and the various multilevel-ed extra areas that all used multiple items. I get what they're saying about how there should be areas that are dynamic whilst also hidden, I just don't think TP is as empty as people think it is.

It's been too long since I've played TP, so maybe I'm mistaken or being hyperbolic about it having scarce explorable areas. But the major explorable areas I remember were the cave of ordeals and bomb-able areas in Hyrule Field, with some 1 or 2 room caves that needed a hookshot to reach.

Well I might be remembering more than there was, I don't know. I'm honestly kinda confused by what people want though, I understand what the GameXplain guys were talking about but I just don't really get how that's much more different than what's already been in TP and WW.

 

[Volotaire]

If I remember correctly, you could choose between difficulty levels before you got in. But yeah, randomized puzzles are kind of hard to make. Binding of Isaac inittialy was planned to include puzzles, but the idea was soon scratched.

I wasn't really talking explicitly about difficulty levels.

The problem I see people perceiving on ALBW (and in the video discussed ) is the unbalanced difficulty from going to a harder dungeon to a simpler dungeon, or just some dungeons being too simple in an open world game. I was commentating more about after each dungeon is defeated, and in the least programmable intensive and creatively difficult method, is to make each progressive dungeon you undertake (no matter which order you tackle them) have harder enemies. This way, anybody on the 6th dungeon, whether that's a Water temple you chose or an Fire temple in this open world, then the difficulty, or the types of enemies spawning would be relatively the same to that completion level you have got to.

It's just that TP had more than just one room areas, it had the lantern caverns and the various multilevel-ed extra areas that all used multiple items. I get what they're saying about how there should be areas that are dynamic whilst also hidden, I just don't think TP is as empty as people think it is.

It's been too long since I've played TP, so maybe I'm mistaken or being hyperbolic about it having scarce explorable areas. But the major explorable areas I remember were the cave of ordeals and bomb-able areas in Hyrule Field, with some 1 or 2 room caves that needed a hookshot to reach.

 

[Volotaire]

Ooh, I never heard about that mechanic. Link? I'd love to see Link age throughout the game from a child to a teen. I always preferred Child Link/Toon Link, anyway.

So I found it, here's the quotation from Zelda Wiki

An older form of Link was sketched, but never modeled. Link was to physically grow during the course of the game (at a more subtle rate than in Ocarina of Time), but implementing this idea was too difficult, so it was scrapped.[citation needed]

But, there is no citation on the quote, so I have no clue where this came from.

http://zeldawiki.org/Unused_Content#The_Wind_Waker

EDIT: sorry, Double post.

 

[CassSept]

It's been too long since I've played TP, so maybe I'm mistaken or being hyperbolic about it having scarce explorable areas. But the major explorable areas I remember were the cave of ordeals and bomb-able areas in Hyrule Field, with some 1 or 2 room caves that needed a hookshot to reach.

There are some items that serve multiple purposes, but a lot of them were nothing more than keys that could just as well be discarded after their respective dungeons. Spinner was great, but after Arbiter Ground it's usage was scarce. Ball and chain? Really fun at the time of Wii's release, but barely used within the game. Boomerang's wind utility? Added to show that no no, it's a different boomerang and swiftly forgotten thereafter. Outside of usual suspects like bow, bombs or hookshot most of items in TP were criminally underused.

 

[Gsnap]

I like the point the guy made about the art style being more of an evolution of OoT than of wind waker or Skyward sword.

The art style is bright, but aside from that, everything is pretty realistic in style. The rocks and trees. The horse has realistic proportions. The houses are not overly stylized. All that stuff. Just like every other zelda game, the characters do have a cartoon/anime vibe, but it's not overstated like in wind waker. It's simple, like OoT and Twilight princess.

Besides being bright and having some cel-shading, this is the most "realistic" zelda has been since Twilight Princess. And Twilight Princess was also an evolution of OoT's style, but it took it in more of a diluted and less colorful direction. Whereas Zelda U appears to be the same thing, but skewing towards the more colorful side of OoT.

Beautiful.

 

[Makai]

The video, and me currently playing Wind Waker at the moment, has reminded me of the unused mechanic from WW in the early stages of Link ageing throughout the game. Playing through WW, I for one would welcome a child Link back to a home console Zelda. The mechanic could could compromise both camps but also provide a new twist on 'two Links' or 'two worlds' in a Zelda game.

That's cool. I don't see why it would be hard to implement - just make a bunch of models

 

[Capra]

It'd probably be really time consuming to implement, especially since they've never even attempted a completely open 3D Zelda before, but it'd be cool if Zelda U took place over a period of several years, and every time you completed a dungeon time would advance. So basically as you explore the world and complete dungeons in whatever order you find them or feel like tacking them, Link would visually age and the world around him would change. That way, they could put harder enemies in uncompleted dungeons and change the environments around them (towns, forests, etc.) to reflect their decay as they succumb to the villain's influence.

The only problem I can see with this conceptually is finding a way to convincingly age Link in an open world setting. It'd be weird if the player decided to tackle a dungeon they found earlier immediately after another via warp point and suddenly have Link age two years in just a few hours realtime.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

I always preferred Child Link/Toon Link, anyway.

I like an older Link but I have 2 problems with it.
Skyward Sword Link for example is the oldest Link of the series(at 17 1/2) yet he
1. Looked much younger than OOT and TP
2. Him and Zelda despite their supposed age are child sized

 

[Volotaire]

I like the point the guy made about the art style being more of an evolution of OoT than of wind waker or Skyward sword.

The art style is bright, but aside from that, everything is pretty realistic in style. The rocks and trees. The horse has realistic proportions. The houses are not overly stylized. All that stuff. Just like every other zelda game, the characters do have a cartoon/anime vibe, but it's not overstated like in wind waker. It's simple, like OoT and Twilight princess.

Besides being bright and having some cel-shading, this is the most "realistic" zelda has been since Twilight Princess. And Twilight Princess was also an evolution of OoT's style, but it took it in more of a diluted and less colorful direction. Whereas Zelda U appears to be the same thing, but skewing towards the more colorful side of OoT.

Beautiful.

Remember the Europe/Japanese box art for OoT 3D with Link riding down Hyrule Field on Epona. When Zelda U was first unveiled, that is exactly what I resembled it to. I've actually took a near U turn on Zelda artstyle now playing WW. I want Wind Waker 2, and this is a great compromise. I hope they can articulate subtle expressions into link's face like WW, it was very effective.

 

[Luigiv]

How can you make a 44 Minutes discussion on 1 minute of footage...

15 seconds. It was 15 seconds of footage, not 1 minuted.

Edit: Sorry, I mean 45 seconds. For some reason I thought it was 15.

 

[Volotaire]

I like an older Link but I have 2 problems with it.
Skyward Sword Link for example is the oldest Link of the series(at 17 1/2) yet he
1. Looked much younger than OOT and TP
2. Him and Zelda despite their supposed age are child sized

I think perhaps artstyle along the technical limitations perhaps made Link look younger than he was in TP and OoT. If they had the power they could utilise now, he would look a lot more older i.e. the SS concept art from E3 2009.

Well I might be remembering more than there was, I don't know. I'm honestly kinda confused by what people want though, I understand what the GameXplain guys were talking about but I just don't really get how that's much more different than what's already been in TP and WW.

I'm on the level of thinking of several tens of mini dungeons scattered all over the overworld. I hate to use this comparison since Zelda focuses on tighter level design and a tight set of items, but the Elder Scrolls, or Skyrim, is exactly what i have in mind for the amount of content. of course, there won't be 250-300 points on mini interest (dungeons) in the world like Skyrim, but if they can increase the number of mini dungeons (sizeable rooms which are varied and interesting) than that is the step forward I am looking for, along with more optional or even upgradable items. Although, I think it will help if they use SS's structure of making the overworld into a dungeon as well. That will help alleviate 'empty, barren' overworld concerns.

My ultimate dream, one I was hoping SS would implement after seeing the SS E3 2010 demo, is where you cannot differentiate between overworld and dungeon anymore. When you walk into a dungeon, you won't know i.e. you're riding into a forest (and there is no loading screens) or it's Lake Hylia and it's suddenly a dungeon.

 

[maxcriden]

So I found it, here's the quotation from Zelda Wiki

But, there is no citation on the quote, so I have no clue where this came from.

http://zeldawiki.org/Unused_Content#The_Wind_Waker

EDIT: sorry, Double post.

Oh, cool, thanks for the info! You know, now that I read it a second time, it does ring a vague bell. I might just be imaging things, though!

I like an older Link but I have 2 problems with it.
Skyward Sword Link for example is the oldest Link of the series(at 17 1/2) yet he
1. Looked much younger than OOT and TP
2. Him and Zelda despite their supposed age are child sized

17 1/2?! Wow. My wife and I are playing the game for the first time and I assumed they were 15-16.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

17 1/2?! Wow. My wife and I are playing the game for the first time and I assumed they were 15-16.

Yup,
OOT was 17 and TP 16.
Skyward Sword Link and Zelda look maybe 14-15 but relative to the word and adults look Under 13.

I think perhaps artstyle along the technical limitations perhaps made Link look younger than he was in TP and OoT. If they had the power they could utilise now, he would look a lot more older i.e. the SS concept art from E3 2009.

Yeah.
That concept was really nice, I guess when they went more animated Link lost some maturity.
Wonder what Zelda would have looked like in that style.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

If anyone has 44 minutes to spare, here's a new GameXplain discussion video on Zelda U.
I'm always up for more talk on Zelda U.

I understand that people have different taste and all that jazz, but what is the point of playing a series where the player spends 70% of their time doing things (solving puzzles, climbing obstacles, jumping, fighting, etc.) in dungeons if you don't like that element?
That's like playing Mario only for the powerups/"combat" while moaning and groaning about all of that pesky platforming that's in your way.
I know Andre admitted that this was a minority opinion and he's generally the "odd man out" on that sentiment, but I've seen the "I don't like the dungeons..." mentality come up more than a few times on GAF (Again, not in large numbers or anything)
It's perplexing to say the least.

Edit:

I guess in the same way NeoGAF can have a 44 page thread about textures.

Tbqh the video was basically a GAF thread. hehehe

 

[Tovarisch]

*dreams about a new high-tech Zelda*

 

[Volotaire]

*dreams about a new high-tech Zelda*

Given the technology in SS and the Zelda U trailer, I don't think the Zelda team are forgoing on tech (or any recent 3D Zelda).

I'm already giddy with the idea of a (SS spoilers)

Spoiler

timeshift stone inspired mechanic with the increased power of the Wii U

.

 

[shaowebb]

I'm just hoping for as many great dungeons as Twilight Princess had. Thing was littered with memorable moments.

Arbiters Grounds
Temple of Time
Sky Temple
The Ice Temple with them Yetis and the ball and chain
...the list just goes on.

 

[brandonh83]

Twilight Princess and Skyward are the cream of the crop in terms of Zelda dungeons.

Ancient Cistern, Sandship, Arbiter's Grounds, City in the Sky, Lanayru Mining Facility, Temple of Time, Hyrule Castle, Snowpeak, Lakebed Temple, Earth Temple, Fire Sanctuary... hnnngg